Magnesium expert on now.
Just started as I speak.
Listen on WWW.
Show is by Ronald Hoffman,M.D.

he sells bandaid services (like iv nutrients) for real disorders like lyme, ms, etc.

Restoring the missing minerals and vitamins, restoring the body's balance, so that it can heal itself is not "bandaid services".

The body DOES and CAN heal itself...IF it has the proper nutrients in the quanity needed to do so...ongoing.

We MAKE our own HIGHLY TARGETED antibodies (immunoglobulins) to destroy Bb IF we have the "ingredients" to do so...enough of them.

If Mg is low (or calcium) the "fab" portion of the antibody specific to fighting lyme is damaged. This makes it ineffective. Think of a stalk of broccoli. The fab portion is the top. (That's sorta what it looks like. There are pictures buried on the internet describing the fab portion of antibodies.)

Don't take my word for it...the research says it all:

"Characterization of the physiological requirements for the bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi by confocal microscopy.

The bactericidal effect of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but is dependent on the presence of Ca2+ and Mg2+.
***Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.***

The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.
PMID: 9125579 (www.pubmed.com)

A ``novel form of antibody-organism interaction?'' I don't THINK so!

"E. Required by immunological process. Magnesium, immunity, and allergy: Mg is required for several steps of immunological reactions
1. Lymphoblastic transformation, a prerequisite of secretion of antibodies by lymphoblasts, requires Ca2+ and Mg2+
2. Mg is required for synthesis of proteins, immunoglobulins included
3. Antibody-induced complement activation is Mg dependent
4. The antigen-immunoglobulin-complement reaction induces degranulation of the mastocyte"
http://www.mdschoice.com/elements/elements/major_minerals/magnesium.htm

Large doses of Mg once or twice a day...not smaller maintained ones...doesn't "cut it". The level must be brought back up and MAINTAINED for as many hours a day as possible until the infection is under control.

With die-off...whether by abx (acidic reacting with the minerals - that's why they deplete the minerals) or by your own antibodies...when the cell wall is destroyed (either way) it releases a LOT of toxins...acidic. Up goes TNF alpha = ouch.

In the Merck manual, for years was a "universal remedy":

It was: Mg oxide, Tannic acid (very strong acid in many healthy foods)and activated charcoal.

Kill the pathogen soak up the toxins with activated charcoal.

It's a cheap treatment. More $ in all the other supp., treatments, drugs suggested by most doctors.

I've never heard of that on Lymenet before. That's a new one for me.

I've been to several alternative doctors and they helped me greatly. It sure wasn't a Band Aid Service when my pain was treated.

bb is an antibody or protein binding antigen, we don't need ingredients to make more antibodies, we need more antibodies, like IV gammaglobulins. but no insurance company want's to cover that at $3000 or more pop.

IV vitamins and minerals are no subtitute for the real thing.

why drink Crank Cola when you can have a Coke?

you know a lot more than about nutrients, specifically magnesium, than I. so i'm not about to argue with you about that, as i'm unqualified so it would be fruitless.

i found your hypothesis about mg and antibody production above interesting and will look into reading more about it, thanks for the tip.

but as recipegirl attested to it helped her pain, etc a lot, but did it cure her, or give her a long term alleviation? did it create the proper antibodies and proteins to shed the bb antigen so that it could be killed by abx?

that's why i call it a bandaid, because it's just covering up the symptoms, momentarily and transiently... like many medicatons and supplements.

nothing "wrong" with that but it's not treating the disease it's treating the symptoms.

to be honest, i have never had an mineral or vitamin IV, so I can't speak of it in the fairest terms, (for he who tastes knows) but in objective terms it is not the best treatment in anyway for bb.

anyhow... the jury still out on vitamin megadosing period.

as for the acidic quality i thought the bb like an acidic enviorment and the point was to make an alkaline enviorment to kill the spirochetes.

why would a lyme patient take a product to make there body more acidic? unless Donta has it totally wrong.

These buggers are parasites...plain and simple. They feed off of our nutrients (minerals).

But in order to fight them, we need the nutrients...Mg and Ca to make HEALTHY antibodies.

Donta knows Bb uses Mg. He is very, very wrong about not supplementing this mineral.

The acids (lots) react with the minerals (few) to make hydrogen.

Hydrogen INactivates an enzyme called PFK...and Bb is PFK dependent. (So does H2O2 and ATP, et al.)

Problem is...this pathogen depletes the serum Mg level very fast, very significantly!

Find my updated nutshell post and study it. Pay close attention to the Romanian (cancer hospital) abstract at the end. Do the math and see the % drop of Mg early on.

They gave abx. AND restored the very depleted serum Mg levels (MAINTAINED THEM) to cure the patients.

This pathogen AND the abx. deplete our Mg levels and we need Mg (along with calcium) to make HEALTHY antibodies.

Without ENOUGH "ingredients" readily available, we make damaged antibodies (immunoglobulins).

Up goes TNF alpha (inflammation) because ONE of the jobs of TNF alpha is to eliminate DAMAGED antibodies.

Restoring the Mg-Ca level restored the "health" (fab portion) of our own antibodies specifically designed to knock out Bb.

Bb dives for cover in an acidic environment. It goes into cyst form and sits and waits until conditions are favorable for it to reappear.

Agreed...IVIG would help, indeed. Yes, very costly.

IV Mg, on the other hand, is far less expensive. And just as effective. Restore the balance to heal. This takes TIME.

In 1915, Dr. Delbet was curing polio, diptheria, etc. using Mg chloride....what happened? Well...vaccines were being produced. The longer the disease had progressed, the longer it took the patient to recover, Delbet found.

Yup. Takes awhile to heal the mitochondria, to stop the disease, but it can be done.

Look at The Perricone Prescription (book, diet, supplements) to "reverse aging" ie. heal the mitochondria. Aging AND disease = mitochondrial damage. Perricone was a Harvard professor. SMART MAN!

Hi All,

Misplaced my notes taken during radio show on Magnesium. Will post when I find them, including rearcher's name and associated Univ.; else see Ronald Hoffman's (M.D.)site to get it if its there.

Later
dq

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marnie:
Agreed...IVIG would help, indeed. Yes, very costly.

IV Mg, on the other hand, is far less expensive. And just as effective. Restore the balance to heal. This takes TIME.

---

ridiculous quote. completely.

gamma globulin is a proven immunomodulator which significantly reduces cytokine inflammation (TNF ALPHA) and other various inflammatory mediators (like metalloproteinases) as well as suppression of idiotypic antibodies, saturation of Fc receptors on macrophages, etc.

magnesium does not have the immunomodulating ability of IVIG. you more or less said so "in a nutshell pt 1" as you used gamma globulin as a reference point to compare and contrast.

i'm not belittling the importance of magnesium (i take magtab sr myself) but to equate IV magnesium with IV gamma globulin therapy is a laugh, no offense.

now i haven't had a chance to thoroughly read all the stuff you posted, but i have enjoyed it so far. your time and dedication is too be way applauded and look forward to reading deeper when i have the chance soon.

p.s. i can't find the romanian study, which part was that in? i must have missed it somehow???

Zip,

Zip,

Then its in a foreign patent database, that begins with the letter 'e.' I have it written down somewhere. Give me a week or so.

"E. Required by immunological process. Magnesium, immunity, and allergy: Mg is required for several steps of immunological reactions

1. Lymphoblastic transformation, a prerequisite of secretion of antibodies by lymphoblasts, requires Ca2+ and Mg2+

***2. Mg is required for synthesis of proteins, immunoglobulins included!!!

3. Antibody-induced complement activation is Mg dependent

4. The antigen-immunoglobulin-complement reaction induces degranulation of the mastocyte"
http://www.mdschoice.com/elements/elements/major_minerals/magnesium.htm

The above is an amazing website explaining to doctors (mdschoice) the many functions of this critical, critical electrolyte.

"The levels of antibodies (immunoglobulins) decrease in experimental animals (mice, rats and hamster) by up to 60% when the supply of magnesium is significant reduced.

There is a direct correlation between magnesium deficiencies in rats and reduced immune defense against allergic reactions and cancers, in particular leukaemia and lymphomas."
http://www.1stvitality.co.uk/az/magnesium/

The above website has changed, so go to this pubmed abstract instead:
Proc Soc Exp Biol Med. 1975 Mar;148(3):620-4.

The effect of magnesium deficiency in mice on serum immunoglobulin concentrations and antibody plaque-forming cells.
Elin RJ.

Therefore, magnesium deficiency has ***profound immunosuppressive capabilities in mice by significantly reducing the number of antibody synthesizing cells and serum immunoglobulin concentrations.
PMID: 1093189

To find the Romanian abstract, go here:
http://coldcure.com/html/2003-mag-abstracts.pfd

Takes 2 minutes to download. Scroll down to page 79.

To find Valleta's U.S. patent (titled: Magnesium for autoimmune) go here:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=6,248,368.WKU.&OS=PN/6,248,368&RS=PN/6,248,368

Fact is fact. Valletta cured RA, ulcerative colitis and invasive bowel cancer in 6 months by using IV Mg pyrophosphate and sublingual B6.

The Romanians discovered a HUGE % decrease in serum Mg levels at early onset lyme. They restored the normal serum Mg levels (and maintained them) WHILE giving abx. to cure 2 patients (early onset) in 3 weeks. Follow up testing indicated they were cured.

If you have scurvy...taking vitamin B6 (also acidic) won't cut it. You need vitamin C.

If you have RA, gold shots or lithium doesn't cut it...you need Mg.

One vitamin or one mineral can't substitute for another. They may help for awhile(acid-mineral reaction to produce hydrogen to inactivate PFK), but if we can get to the ROOT of the problem and address it, determine which vitamin or mineral is being depleted and restore it, healing is far more possible.

I do not follow your statement:

"magnesium does not have the immunomodulating ability of IVIG. you more or less said so "in a nutshell pt 1" as you used gamma globulin as a reference point to compare and contrast"

How many healthy, not damaged!, antibodies (immunoglobulins) does it take to cure chronic lyme? LOTS.

Mg and Ca are needed to prevent damage to the fab portion of our own highly targeted antibodies. When we make too many damaged antibodies, up goes TNF alpha.

Documentation follows:

Characterization of the physiological requirements for the bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi by confocal microscopy.

The bactericidal effect of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but is dependent on the presence of Ca2+ and Mg2+.

***Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.

The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.

PMID: 9125579

We need to make a lot of HEALTHY, not damaged, antibodies!

Zipzip...highlight, cut and paste and drop the Updated Nutshell post into a MS word file and print it out to study it. You will have to read it many times before it "clicks" and you begin to understand.

But...as with many pathogens...in their outer cell walls they have a metallprotease, an enzyme, that needs a metal, a mineral, to work.

Bb and bartonella like Mg. This is disasterous. Many other pathogens chose zinc. Staph uses iron.

These pathogens are parasites...they "feed" off our minerals and many trigger the glycolysis pathway (sugar, not oxygen to make ATP). This isn't healthy for us.

Many, many years ago...about 1915, Dr. Pierre Delbet was using Mg chloride to cure diptheria, polio, etc. He found that they were easier to cure if caught fast. Why wasn't the use of this cheap, natural substance continued? Well...vaccines were being made.

Who's going to fund the research to prove that IV Mg works to cure many diseases? Certainly not the pharmaceutical companies (which do most of the funding).

Sadly...we have also ignored research done by vets in Germany.

romanian study link was a no-go.

i did read the valetta synopsis though. quite interesting. where is the patent now, as far as status?

the patent was already outstanding for 6 yrs on the website (2001), and has been 3.5 yrs since. just wondering if you knew anything about that?

it seems to be more theory than actual invention. i don't see where Valetta explains his novel approach of introducing mg into the cell that is different from what is available by po, im or iv.

anyhow his hypothesis is very interesting, but there are so many questions.

there seems to be no absolute definition of quantity of mg for treatment, since there would be variables to different diseases. plus it doesn't address how magnesium can interact with other medications.

it seems he drops all other medications and is stating that resolution of autoimmune diseases can be remedied in mg alone.

the valetta patent states "the highest amounts will be administered in the most severe cases of the above diseases by continuous infusion throughout 24 hours. The daily magnesium dose is to be diluted in a phleboclysis so as to supply the organism with no more than 80-100 mg of magnesium per hour."

is this too much mg?

"It should also be considered that both parenteral and oral magnesium therapy in pharmacodynamic doses are to be associated with monitoring of the patient's plasma-magnesium level, pulsation, arterial pressure, bone-tendinous reflexes, electrocardiogram and respiration rhythm."

the latter all signs of mg intoxciation, or overdose, so valetta is aware of that.

"A magnesium therapy carried out according to this invention leads to recovery of the previously indicated diseases within a time interval from three to twelve months."

wow!

that's a buttload of magnesium, 24 hrs continuous for 3-12 months ("or im 2-4 mg of Mg.sup.++ /kg body weight daily divided into one or two administrations, until the oral or intravenous route can be employed.").

it is a novel approach but an abundance of studies would be needed because you would need control groups for different diseases.

these studies could privately sponsored ($) by different groups associated with advocacy for different diseases, given the relative economy of mg.

the latter would be crucial to understanding the mechanism of mg involvement with each autoimmune like illness and not a blanket statement.

obviously that would be priceless, and not pricey.

as for the animal studies correlating mg deficiency and immunoglobulin deficiency it is interesting, but small verterbrae animals studies do not always cross over to in vivo human studies.

you asked :

"How many healthy, not damaged!, antibodies (immunoglobulins) does it take to cure chronic lyme? LOTS"

indeed, a good amount, but not insurmountable.

from people i have been speaking to (since there haven't been any trials or studies in use of IVIG and recalcitrant lyme) the mean time of treatment until asymptomatic in the patient is approximately 1 year (in conjunction with abx treatment, variable to patient).

that is at a mean of 30 gms per infusion at once every 2-3 weeks.

the loose math would be 600 gms of gamma globulin per patient mean avg, in recalcitrant lyme (long standing infection, mean time 5 yrs).

this is not cheap, obviously. if mg were a valid replacement that would be fabulous but...

in contrast how much mg would it take for resolution of lyme? you stated that in the romanian study, which i couldn't read, it was early onset lyme, so obviously the pathogen was not deeply embedded into the host.

maybe the mg arrested the bb from replicating at a greater rate and stopped it from becoming chronic, but that would simply be speculation since their is more proof that the abx took care of the infection.

anyhow...

yes bb feeds off mg, rather than iron like most pathogens which is problematic, which makes it important for supplementation.

but the real question is how much mg is needed, and is safe, to help create healthy antibodies?

i guess that is the 64 thousand dollar question...

anyhow you have outdone yourself with your research and i definitely appreciate the time you have put into it. you have opened my eyes to a whole new way of seeing and understanding mg and bb.