posted
In investigating my daughter's reaction to Biaxin and Lexapro...........I have heard that there is an inside investigation going on regarding post clinical studies with Biaxin use alone.
How many others are affected then go on additional medications (like my daughter) to solve the issues that Biaxin brought up. I would NOT recommend Biaxin use alone or in combination with ANY SSRI, including Effexor, Paxil, Zoloft, Prozak, Celexa or Lexaapro. aunty
[This message has been edited by auntybiotic1499 (edited 18 January 2005).]
TheCrimeOfLyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4019
posted
Ive posted before in the past, Biaxin is NOT to be used with Zoloft. It can cause serotonine syndrome, as I am sure BIaixin and other SSRI's can cause.
Posts: 3169 | From Greensburg, Pennsylvania | Registered: Jun 2003
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riversinger
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4851
posted
Aunty, do you have anything that could be given to a doctor about this? I want to let my LLMD know of this, but need something concrete.
posted
Whew! I took about a yr and a half of Biaxin....along with Trazodone. I think there's alot to be said for the triclyclic antidepressants. Those are the only kind I've ever taken....and I've taken them for about 15 yrs.
So Biaxin can't be taken "alone" either? I don't quite get that. I think flagyl made me FAR more depressed than Biaxin ever thought to!
posted
I don't usually like to respond on here with negative remarks.......but to Charlie I have to say.....to those of us that went for years not being diagnosed or treated for Lyme and thought we were losing our minds and bodies, the anitidepressant Prozac was a life saver for me.....
Since I don't drink beer, it wouldn't have done the job for depression anyway....A low saratonin level along with CFS and Fibromyalgia, cytomegliovirus, B-12 defeciency, low white blood count, low thyroid and now Lyme???? I have taken several different abx with prozac and have never had a problem.......except with Biaxin...
had mild hallucinations and other extreme side effects.......it just depends on the person and the way different meds affect you..
If I hadn't been given Prozac by a wonderful doctor and friend, I would have been suicidal years and years ago....my dad had panic attacks for 50 plus years......started prozac 3 years ago and never had another attack......go figure......
So to all of us that have to take meds for depression and are living the best life with can with Lyme, we say to Charlie.......get your facts straight or keep your stupid remarks to yourself....
We are not DOPED UP but only grateful that we have these meds to keep our life on track.....sorry if you don't realize how serious depression is......
Posts: 125 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Sorry Charlie and others......I didn't mean to get on my soapbox and preach.....I just know what Prozac did for me many years ago....and hope I never have to go without it.....
I'm a very outgoing and spunky person that almost went nuts with depression and other serious medical problems that nobody could find an answer for....
guess I'm a little sensitive about people that are truly depressed....I know what a black hole that place is....and hope I never have to go back....
didn't mean anything personal Charlie....whatever works for you....
------------------ Debbie V.
Posts: 125 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2004
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MADDOG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18
posted
Ha,I took prozak while on biaxin with no problems. But then I have been very lucky with meds.. The prozac I quit due to side effects. No squirt in the squirt gun.Now thats depressing!!! Prozac is terrible!!! MADDOG
Posts: 3997 | From Ohio | Registered: Oct 2000
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charlie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25
posted
Debbie....Boudin works for me .What part of LA are you in anyway??
posted
Debbie, I've been in that very dark hole too. So I hear ya loud and clear. See, Charlie's a nice old buzzard!
Hey Charlie, I hear ya got some snow! I was in Houston at the time...we only got a dusting, but all my other friends and relatives along the coast had the time of their lives!
posted
I happened to do a little reading online today on Aunty's subject here, which originaly ahd to do with drugs that inhibit an enzyme in the body, which then slows metabolism of the drugs so that they build up in the system. I just wanted to mention that Prozac is the only SSRI I saw that did not have the effect of inhibiting the enzyme and therefore increasing levels or interacting w/other drugs. And although Biaxin also caused problmems, Zithromax didn't. Sorry if I'm repeating myself...I'm sleepy. But wnated to make sure folks who are benefiting from certain meds don't get too worried. Apparently though Biaxin and most SSRI's are a big no no- and my daughter also experienced seizures and hallucinations.
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posted
Oh Charlie I hate that stuff.......I'm in central Louisiana.......middle of the state........so I don't do all that cajun food.....jambalaya is about all I can handle....I'll leave all that boudin for you....
Just wanted to say too that right now I'm on Zithromax and Plaquenel and today's been a huge herx.....thanks for helping me get thru it.... ------------------ Debbie V.
[This message has been edited by vandeb (edited 17 January 2005).]
Posts: 125 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2004
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This site explains everything. Scroll down to the info on specific drugs and you will see that zithromax is completely okay (erythromycin is the worst interactor and Biaxin is next).
Prozac may also be a good cushion as you said. Its long half-life makes it easier to stop. We actually used tiny amounts of Lexapro to get off zoloft. We asked for Prozac for the same purpose, but by the time we got it, the withdrawal was over.
Aunty, why don't you switch your daughter to zithromax first of all? The pharmacist you talked with may thing that the whole macrolide class is involved, but this isn't true apparently. I saw this info on several sites. Maybe you could print out the cipla.doc info and take it with you-? I know I'm going to use it...
Withdrawal from the SSRI's varies so much from person to person. Paxil was a breeze to get off for my daughter, even though others said it was the worst. The withdrawal off zoloft was troublesome but my daughter preferred to go through it and get off, so it wasn't torture and it definitely wasn't dangerous. She tapered over 6 weeks, but only ahd problems for 3 weeks. Zaps were only a few days. If you run into withdrawal that is too hard, you can just up the dose again.
Your daughter may have elevated levels of Lexapro due to the interaction w/Biaxin, so again, could you start by switching to zithro , then begin tapering the Lexapro?
Seratonin syndrome is dangerous- what are your daughter's symptoms? It seems like getting the levels down asap would be important. I think the serotonin syndrome is much scarier than withdrawal stuff. You won't know how your duaghter will react to lower doses until you try and, agian, it's not harmful, just potentially uncomfortable, whereas seratonin syndrome is harmful.
posted
In my experience, the thing that put me in that deep dark hole was Bb. The thing that got me out was Abx.
No amount of antidepressant worked on the horrid type of depression that Bb caused. Tricyclics seem to be the best choice for Lymies.
Prozac and zoloft put me in the emergency room. Zoloft makers are being sued.
I use a low level tricyclic for stuff other than depression, panic, terrors, etc. Imipramine (tofraninl at 20 mg) helps me stay asleep and keeps the bad bad panic under control pretty well. Of course its so old most dox don't think of it. But I would say mainly that abx worked well with me.
Biaxen of course can be taken alone, and it helped get me going at first for 8 months. helped a lot.
but most dox use a cocktail of abx for tx. Also, you must understand that becoming worse emotionaly or developing depression can be a herx type reaction esp if you have much CNS involvement.
Charlie, you comments are totally inapporpriate and you should go drink three beers and contemplante your life at the end of the porch. Then return and give me a snappy answer.
I posted this several times in the summer, as I got very very ill from the combo of Zoloft and Biaxin.
Moderate Interaction -- Drug-Drug sertraline and clarithromycin
GENERALLY AVOID: The use of some macrolide antibiotics has been associated with increased blood levels of some selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), resulting in excessive serotonergic effects or serotonin syndrome. The mechanism is inhibition of the CYP450 3A4 isoenzyme, which metabolizes SSRIs. MANAGEMENT: In cases where both drugs are necessary, one could consider using a macrolide antibiotic that does not inhibit CYP450 3A4, such as azithromycin or dirithromycin.
Zoloft and Biaxin should NEVER EVER be combined. Too bad my LLMd didnt know about this, or the pharmacy that handed them out to me. I wasnt feeling too pretty after about three weeks on them
I couldnt find anything for lexapro though and biaxin.
Aunty, Biaxin Xl I believe was designed, not only because of it's extended half life, but because of the VAST reduction in side effects compared to STRAIGHT Biaxin.
This may be of interest to you.
Anyone got a budweiser?
[This message has been edited by TheCrimeOfLyme (edited 17 January 2005).]
Posts: 3169 | From Greensburg, Pennsylvania | Registered: Jun 2003
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lymiecanuck
Unregistered
posted
I have had excellent results with this drug. It says right in the scrip that you are not to take those drugs with it.
I would also say, that I started biaxin about 7 days ago, and yep, I am not sleeping well, manic, laughing etc. Like my brain is a lightbulb all of sudden.
Why?
It getting into my brain and killing things as I know this from symptoms flare, 4 day herx, and eye swelling. I would also avoid caffiene as my use of it with biaxin makes it worse. But to be quite honest this is not a bad herx and I am feeling good. It was added for H.pylori and will be off soon, to continue the other meds I am on, my new doc gave me.
I hope they don't take it off the market, and you wouldn't usually hear me saying that about a drug, but this drug has helped many. And if not on the pazil zanax etc and having these symptoms, then I would say herx, but I am not a doctor, just going by my own experience.
posted
I don't take antidepressants of any kind. The first drug my LLMD tried me on was Biaxin XL, and after 12 days I was having seizures and hallucinations. Since I was diagnosed with non-specific encephalopathy before being diagnosed with Lyme, my assumption was that the neurological effects were related to bacterial die-off.
My LLMD opted for Zithromax instead, combined first with Mepron and then(starting in a few days) Malarone for Babesia.
Part of me wishes we'd stuck with Biaxin, because it really seemed to have a strong impact - arthritic pain spiked like you wouldn't believe. Not fun, but you could believe it was working.
I'm less convinced about Zithromax. Hopefully at a minimum its preventing the Babesia from becoming drug-resistant. Subjectively, it's tempting to wonder if Zith does anything at all, besides turn my stomach inside out.
The case for not prescribing Biaxin with SSRIs seems solid enough - I'm not sure that we have a good basis for thinking the drug by itself is harmful. I've heard from a lot of Lymies who feel it helped them.
Posts: 199 | From Santa Cruz, CA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I took biaxin with ceftin last spring and it the biaxin did definitely cause depression, nuero symptoms, etc... They stopped when I stopped the biaxin and I just kept taking the ceftin. However, these same type of symptoms came back when I was on IV rocephin the last 9 weeks ( I am off of it now). So, maybe this happens when you have lyme in your brain and its a die off effect. I would not/did not take any drugs for the depression etc...and it was realy bad, I am almost over it since I recently stopped. I was definitely the worst month of my life. But, I want the lyme out of my brain !! So, what to do ? Anyway, maybe the sucessful biaxin users dont have so much lyme in their brains, and its too much for those of us that do. We' d rather not take it and live, even if it means living with lyme.
Posts: 222 | From Santa Cruz Mountains, CA USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Once bitten said, "In my experience, the thing that put me in that deep dark hole was Bb. The thing that got me out was Abx. No amount of antidepressant worked on the horrid type of depression that Bb caused. Tricyclics seem to be the best choice for Lymies."
That was my experience too. I don't think Biaxin is the problem here, but that's me. It was the first abx to really help me. I've never taken SSRI's so it wasn't a problem for me.
Tricyclics are often ignored because they are "older" but I've really been helped by them, and wouldn't have made it through treatment without them.
Any abx can cause depression, but it's always been my feeling that the depression was really the Lyme... in the form of a herx.
I'm not denying the combination of Biaxin and SSRI's is a problem. It probably is! ------------------ oops! Lymetutu
[This message has been edited by Lymetoo (edited 17 January 2005).]
MADDOG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18
posted
Hi,I was prescribed 40 mg prozac a day,with 1 gram biaxin. MADDOG P.S. Never sniff a skunks butt no matter how friendly it is!!!
Posts: 3997 | From Ohio | Registered: Oct 2000
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TheCrimeOfLyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4019
posted
You have to stop the biaxin.
Thast what I , at leaset, had to do with the zoloft and biaxin interaction.
Since biaxin holds most SSRI's in the liver, accumulating them to very very dangerous levels, stoping the Zoloft for me and continuing with the biaxin would have still caused the same problem.
I had to go off my biaxin , for me though, I just stopped it, and slowly weened myself down off the zoloft.
I didnt have too too much of a problem doing it that way. I did hve some dizziness, but
my neuro symptoms overall kinda crashed on me for a while after that happened. I wasn't amused, so I definately know where you are coming from!
I tried to just stop the zoloft at the same time as the biaxin and I had withdrawal from the zoloft , really bad muscle pains and weird zaps in my head-
everytime I closed my eyes, a vision was in front of my darn eyeballs that I had not thought of. It was a scary time.
Posts: 3169 | From Greensburg, Pennsylvania | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
IMO everyone reacts differently to medications. What is absoulutely fine for one can mean death for another....I think it may be a great medication for some and causes problems for others. So I guess it is up to the bean counters to decide. It is good to hear all the pro's and con's though as being informed and aware of all possibilities is best. Pattiecake
Posts: 687 | From PA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Lyddie
Unregistered
posted
Seems like best course of action: Stop Biaxin, use Zithromax instead. Taper down Lexapro as quickly as possible to 50%, then taper very slowly until off. Pharmacologist can recommend another SSRI to cushion withdrawal if needed, often Prozac.
Crime of Lyme, did you discover this interaction yourself, or did any MD or pharmacologist let you know about it?
A lot of LLMD's don't seem to be aware, either. Biaxin and SSRI's would seem to be a fairly common combo for Lyme patients.
Any info on trycyclics (amitryptilene) or quadricyclics (trazadone) and similar interaction w/Biaxin?
posted
I am new to this sight so please bare with me. My son who just turned 13 was diagnosed with Lyme at the end of August. Crashed on me April 13, 2004. I questioned Lyme from the start. We have ticks everywhere! From the beginning all docs said "no" without even testing for it. They kept saying it was a virus and would subside. After 2 and half weeks I insisted blood work be done. Finally they did it along with stool and urine cultures. All was well. I then insisted on more. My son had a constant complaint of nausea, headaches, ear aches, dizziness, vomited a few times, and no appettite. He was just lying there not able to move. He lost ten pounds. Refferred to a ped. gastro.. Again questioned Lyme. Tested negative on WB. More bloodwork, brain MRI, uper endoscpopy,abdomen CAT scan, and Abdomen ultra sound. Nothing except acid reflux. Put on Phergan then Zantac then Elevil. Referred to infectcious disease specialist. Questioned Lyme again. "NO" Did not retest. More bloodwork, stool cultures. Nothing. Back to gastr. Put on Prilosec, Zoloft Reglan. To another gastro specialist. Diagnosed. Persistant chronic nausea. More meds. Zofran, Erythromycin. Suggested a phychiatrist and accupuncture. Phych said he's physically ill and accu. made him really sick. Finally found a doc to send Lyme test to Igenex in August. Positive. We are in Lyme hell. Took off all meds except Zoloft. Put on Zithr and Acidophilus. Tyagn too for nausea as needed. In Oct. new doc took off all meds except Zoloft and put on Biaxin(500mg 2x day), and Plaquenil(200mg 2x day). Biaxin has been rough. Herx. Bad taste in mouth. Beginning of Jan my son kept saying that he feels sicker with the Biaxin. Told doc this. Probably Herx. I have started to not give him Biaxin. Trying to contact doc but not returning e-mails or calls. Maybe what you are writing is true. My son has not been to school since April. He is tutoring at home since October. I can not find a support group in our area. Don't mean to sound stupid but I don't understand what Abx, Bb, tx, CNS mean. Please explain and give me any advise you may have. P.S. I'm sorry all of you are going through so much pain.
Posts: 30 | From MA | Registered: Jan 2005
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TheCrimeOfLyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4019
posted
Lyddie,
I found it myself. No one told me of it. I investigated after I got DEALTHY sick on them and I read enough to know how to take myself right back off without injuring myself.
Posts: 3169 | From Greensburg, Pennsylvania | Registered: Jun 2003
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by giftoflife: I am new to this sight so please bare with me. My son who just turned 13 was diagnosed with Lyme at the end of August. Crashed on me April 13, 2004. I questioned Lyme from the start. We have ticks everywhere! From the beginning all docs said "no" without even testing for it. They kept saying it was a virus and would subside. After 2 and half weeks I insisted blood work be done. Finally they did it along with stool and urine cultures. All was well. I then insisted on more. My son had a constant complaint of nausea, headaches, ear aches, dizziness, vomited a few times, and no appettite. He was just lying there not able to move. He lost ten pounds. Refferred to a ped. gastro.. Again questioned Lyme. Tested negative on WB. More bloodwork, brain MRI, uper endoscpopy,abdomen CAT scan, and Abdomen ultra sound. Nothing except acid reflux. Put on Phergan then Zantac then Elevil. Referred to infectcious disease specialist. Questioned Lyme again. "NO" Did not retest. More bloodwork, stool cultures. Nothing. Back to gastr. Put on Prilosec, Zoloft Reglan. To another gastro specialist. Diagnosed. Persistant chronic nausea. More meds. Zofran, Erythromycin. Suggested a phychiatrist and accupuncture. Phych said he's physically ill and accu. made him really sick. Finally found a doc to send Lyme test to Igenex in August. Positive. We are in Lyme hell. Took off all meds except Zoloft. Put on Zithr and Acidophilus. Tyagn too for nausea as needed. In Oct. new doc took off all meds except Zoloft and put on Biaxin(500mg 2x day), and Plaquenil(200mg 2x day). Biaxin has been rough. Herx. Bad taste in mouth. Beginning of Jan my son kept saying that he feels sicker with the Biaxin. Told doc this. Probably Herx. I have started to not give him Biaxin. Trying to contact doc but not returning e-mails or calls. Maybe what you are writing is true. My son has not been to school since April. He is tutoring at home since October. I can not find a support group in our area. Don't mean to sound stupid but I don't understand what Abx, Bb, tx, CNS mean. Please explain and give me any advise you may have. P.S. I'm sorry all of you are going through so much pain.
ABX = antibiotics, Bb =Lyme spirochetes Borrelia burgdorferi, tx =treatment, CNS=DEFINITIONS -- A number of terms have been used to describe various aspects of central nervous system (CNS) Lyme disease. We will use the following terms here:
CNS Lyme disease -- CNS dysfunction due to local (ie, CNS) Borrelia burgdorferi infection, also known as neuroborreliosis or tertiary neuroborreliosis Lyme disease-related encephalopathy -- B. burgdorferi-related brain dysfunction characterized by memory and cognitive decline and mood changes Lyme disease-related neurocognitive dysfunction -- B. burgdorferi-related brain dysfunction manifest as cognitive dysfunction central nervous system =cns
WELCOME To LYMENET
Here's more goodys! A typical response to newcomers.
Hi and WELCOME! Get a LLMD or at least Dr that is willing to learn about lyme. Borrelia Burgdorferi is a clinical diagnosis, based on symptoms and on your response to treatment. Good Luck, bumpy road ahead.
( No you don't always see a bite and if there's no bullseye the only way your going to be able to tell is (symptoms) and (((Maybe))) WB or lyme dot blot 3 day urine banged with abx's to free your antigens up for the test. ) See this ( . )thats the size of the larva stage tick... Next nymph size... ( * ) Next is adult ( o ) to ( 0 ) Pretty small????? HUH
[This message has been edited by treepatrol (edited 19 January 2005).]
Posts: 10564 | From PA Where the Creeks are Red | Registered: Jun 2003
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Dopamine's transporter is an amino acid (chains of amino acids = a protein). Mg is needed to make proteins and controls OVER 350 enzymes. If that transporter is damaged/missing...then what?
We report here, for the first time, conclusive evidence that a cross clearance of serotonin into dopamine neurons exists. Such alternative uptake by different neurons is adopted under circumstances when their own transporter function is no longer adequate. When the serotonin transporter (5-HTT) is disrupted in 5-HTT knockout mice, serotonin (5-HT) is found in dopamine (DA) neurons of homozygous (-/-) but not of heterozygous (+/-) mutant mice or their normal littermates.
PMID: 12031859
Magnesium interacts not only with dopamine, but also with serotonin and norepinephrine neurotransmitter systems.
Want 4 pages of further explaination re: the neurotransmitters?
I saw a TV show on neurotransmitters once. Wow...complex! Sure wish I had taped that show to watch over and over until it "sunk in".
We fell for it too. Son has been on Ritalin since age 6 nonstop. Now..."Preteen Ritalin May Increase Depression" Yup, dealing with it now.
Why? Ritalin increases plasma levels of Mg and changes the Mg-Ca ratio (PMID:7761553). Where is that "excess" Mg coming from...storage areas. What happens when they are depleted?
Fatty Acid Deficiency : It is believed that in ADD/H children/adults, the release and maintenance of certain neurotransmitters, specifically dopamine, is impaired.
This may be due to 3 reasons; Essential Fatty Acids surround the dopamine. Without sufficiently high levels of essential fatty acids, this dopamine simply leaks away out of the synaptic cleft during a nerve stimulus.
In other words, the essential fatty acids prevent the re-uptake of dopamine in the synaptic cleft. (This re-uptake is what Ritalin attempts to correct.) We know that the neurons are covered in a myelin sheath, and that essential fatty acids are required to form this sheath.
It makes logical sense then, that with a fatty acid deficiency this sheath is compromised and stimuli may not be conducted efficiently
So, the simplest solution seems to be supplementation with EFA's. However, it is not so simple. Many ADD/H sufferers cannot convert the EFA into their usable form, as they do not have the enzymes to do so. If we consider the conversion process of Omega 3 & 6, many things become clear.
Instead of supplementing the diet with cold-pressed vegetable oils (LA/ALA), it makes more sense to supplement with pre-converted EFA's like GLA and EPA/DHA. This bypasses the conversion process and eliminates the possibility of non-conversion due to low / no levels of the delta-enzymes.
Many substances along the way block the conversion process viz. Trans-fatty acids (heated oils, margarine); Lack of Magnesium; Vitamin B6; Zinc; Sugar; Alcohol; Salicylates; Tartrazine; Opioid of milk and wheat.
posted
Thank you all for the information. I'll do my best to keep up with the lingo. I have visited many of the sights you have mentioned, yet there are many I have not visited yet. Took my son to his LLMD on Wed. Took off Plaq and Biaxin. Is now on high dose of Tetra along with daily intake of Zoloft. Hoping he starts to feel better. TTFN
Posts: 30 | From MA | Registered: Jan 2005
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