Na-Vitamin C lots of questionsThe Na-Vitamin C treatment as I understand it, ``promotes the actions of elastase'' in neutrophils.
Since many researchers are thinking elastase should be reduced, you should understand my confusion. Why does it need to be promoted?
In cystic fibrosis patients, they have a lot of sodium channels and too much elastase. In fact, they are trying sodium channel blockers with some success to reduce the inflammation.
Is the increase in sodium channels a ``protective'' attempt? Since:
The elastolytic activity of elastase is significantly affected by salts: NaCl and KCl cause 50% inhibition at 50 - 70 mM and copper sulfate 50% inhibition at 0.01 mM, while millimolar concentrations of zinc, manganese, cobalt, magnesium or calcium had no effect (1).
http://www.serva.de/products/sheets/20929.shtml
And Na (sodium)
It also elutes a high amount of the harmful human leukocyte elastase from psoriatic lesions.
http://www.mavena.com/english/3clinic1.htm
So high salinity removes elastase from (skin) cells?
Does it remove elastase from neutrophils, leaving behind the most valuable component - Bacteriacidal Permeability-Increasing Protein?
Elastase triggers TNF alpha.
Let me see if I understand how this treatment is supposed to work:
Neutrophils, the most numerous of our WBCs, contain 2 lethal ``packages''... peroxidase-positive granules and peroxidase-negative granules.
The negative ones contain cathelicidins which contain Bacteriacidal Permeability-Increasing Protein.
Elastase inside peroxidase positive granules helps to remove bacteriacidal permeability increasing protein from the negative granules.
Inside neutrophils, elastase causes the release of the bacteriacidal permeability increasing protein which poke holes in the cell wall of the keet and if increased sodium is present, potassium leaves, the keet swells up and blows up.
Now, the intracellular levels of sodium and vitamin C is elevated in, I assume, all the cells...ones that are not infected also. What is that impact?
Does this combo - Na and vitamin C also cause the release of elastase from pancreatic and other cells also? Mast cells? Macrophages?
What else does increasing elastase release do?
It is concluded that elastase released [EC 3.4.21.37] by neutrophils is the most relevant enzyme for cartilage degradation. Copyright 2002 Elsevier Science (USA).
PMID: 12020136
Does vitamin C prevent the above?
``Activated neutrophils elaborate elastase that, if unchecked by the proteinase inhibitor, can cause destruction of lung tissue.
Furthermore. they release oxygen radicals and chlorinated oxidants that can oxidize the methionine at the active site of alpha-1-antitrypsin. Such oxidation decreases the rate of association of the inhibitor with neutrophil elastase 2000-fold, markedly reducing its ability to inhibit elastase activity. The unopposed elastase activity is thought to cause destruction of the lung.''
I suppose the thought is to use vitamin C to prevent the oxidizing problems and protect the lungs.
Okay, any problems with large doses of vitamin C?
Vitamin C enhances iron absorption and is contraindicated in cases of iron overload.
Sudden discontinuation of high dosages can cause rebound scurvy so that supplementation should be tapered gradually over several days to weeks.
Vitamin C enhances aluminum absorption and should not be taken with aluminum-containing substances especially in the presence of renal insufficiency.
http://www.farmacopia.net/nutrient_danger.html
Many people do not realize that man is one of the few mammals which does not manufacture its own supply of vitamin C, also known as ascorbic acid. The rates of production by a number of different animals like the cat, dog and goat have been measured. The heavier the animal the more vitamin C it produces.
However, a 154-pound man would need to produce between 1.75 and 3.50 grams per day to keep up with the other animals. There are experts who feel that taking more than 140 milligrams per day of this vitamin is wasteful because, for many people, more than this amount results in urine containing the vitamin--``Expensive Urine.''
Loading tests have shown that 20 to 25 percent of a 1 gram per day dose shows up in the urine within 6 hours. When much larger doses are taken, as much as 62 percent can show up within hours.
Generally speaking, the recommended daily allowances have been based on the amounts needed to prevent scurvy in healthy young men. But healthy young men represent only a small part of the total population. To my knowledge, no one has determined how much of any vitamin is required by unhealthy old men--or women.
The results of a test involving 88 patients, half being schizophrenic, are reported in Dr. Linus Pauling's book How to live Longer and Feel Better. Each was given 1.75 grams of vitamin C by mouth. During the following 6 hours each patient's urine was collected and then analyzed.
The amounts excreted varied from 2 percent to 40 percent of the amount ingested. The mental patients excreted about 60 percent less than the others. This clearly indicates that the need for vitamin C is quite variable. Just as one size shoe doesn't fit every foot, the recommended daily allowance is not going to fill everybody's need for this essential vitamin.
If you take a lot of vitamin C and stop taking it suddenly, your liver will take it out of your immune system leaving you vulnerable to infection.
http://www.americanfreepress.net/Alternative_Health/17_02%20HS%20How%20Mu ch%20Vitamin%20C%20Is%20.htm
Other concerns:
http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims/pharm/ascorbic.htm#SectionTitle:7.2%20%20Toxicity[/ URL] Elastase, once activated, digests the elastin in blood vessel walls causing vascular damage. The actual mechanism by which the enzymes become activated is still a major question.
One theory is that there is hyperstimulation of pancreatic acinar cells similar to the mechanism seen with scorpion stings and insecticide poisoning.
Another theory speculates that obstruction, bile reflux, and/or duodenal reflux disturb pancreatic acinar cell function, causing intracellular activation of the trypsin enzyme.
[URL=http://www.camlt.org/DL_web/956_patty_panc.html]http://www.camlt.org/DL_web/956_patty_panc.html
Recent advances in the study of intracellular communication are providing key insights into the immunological defect that may be underlying Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia. A number of research groups have reported
an abnormality of an enzyme called human leukocyte elastase (HLE).
http://www.fibroandfatigue.com/clinical.htm
Hummm. Wonder why the human leukocyte elastase ENZYME is damaged? Wonder what happens when that DAMAGED enzyme is released?
Does this treatment impact the beneficial bacteria in a negative way?
Finally...how do we know for SURE that this treatment is eliminating Bb specifically? This is one of natures toughest pathogens. Have tests been done in vitro or in vivo?
This is not an argument by any means and please do not interpret it as such. I am merely wondering. I would need lots of questions answered before I would feel entirely comfortable with this treatment.
Weigh the potential risks with the potential benefits to make an educated decision.
Some treatments, while they may seem good, may cause unexpected harm. I'm not the "first on my block" to try new drugs. I'd rather stick with the old ones. I'm just more cautious than many others. Could be partly due to my age ;-)
[This message has been edited by Marnie (edited 25 June 2005).]