The Forsgren person who posts on here I believe recently posted a query on HBO therapy.

I believe he had a number of responses.

Look back four or five pages or so and I bet you will come across it (I looked but didn't see it but am very tired from working all day!).

I'd suggest the search function but it doesn't usually work! (maybe soon? :-) ..)

The bottom line seems to be this: It works pretty well for the majority of people if you stick with it a good while... though a fair number of people do relapse if they go off it too soon.

That's the "thumbnail version."

Hope you'll browse through those posts or someone whose internet connection is faster than my dialup can post the thread for you that I'm speaking of...

Good luck!!

I used HBOT for Neuro lyme and so have a few others here. Is it worth the money? I will say that anything that can get you to function at a higher level and return you to a better quality of life is worth the money.

But I know that it is expensive. Also, if you are considering HBOT it is best to do it while you are receiving IV antibiotics. Hyperbaric oxygen is an adjunctive therapy that allows your body to take full benefit of the IV therapy.

IMHO it works best on the neurological form of lyme...

Another claimed it was the key to their recovery after many years of abx that only got them so far.

It may be worth a try for yours truly one of these days.

A few more words of hope. I met a woman who was treated for 3 years and has been in remission for years. She said HBOT was the key to her success.

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WildCondor wrote: Mild chambers and multiplace chambers seem to be useless.

(Let me AMMEND that statement...what I mean is FOR ME, IN MY EXPERIENCED OPINION, monoplace are best.

A mild chamber is looked at as more of maintenance treatment that's more affordable. No one suggests to just do mild without ever doing some serious dives in a regular chamber.

Both multiplace and mild chambers work.

Also, some people are claustrophobic and can't bear monoplace (like me). And some people's ears are anatomically such that they have trouble equalizing while lying down.

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WildCondor's Lymelinks

Let me address a few of these statements:

1) My opinion is shared by many of the ILADS LLMD's. Dr. B and co. all seem to agree that multiplace and mild chambers are useless.
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In making a blanket statement like that in print can you make some references? Dr B has said all other chambers are "useless"? And ILADS had maintained that too?

I don't believe it. But if its the case and you're going to state it that strongly please back it up. Useless is an unbelievably strong term.

2) I don't know of any evidence that the minimal amount absorbed through the skin is going to add so much oxygen into the tissues that it will make all the difference. Spirochetes hide everywhere.

3) Frankly I think its far safer to pressurize with air, it greatly lessens the danger of an explosion.

4) You say: Multiplace chambers lose alot of effectiveness through air leaks.

Do you have any engineering evidence to back up the idea that multiplace chambers are badly engineered and don't form a tight seal and that monoplace do? THis is a ridiculous statement! Truly! You can see from the pressure guage on any chamber what pressure it is at, PERIOD. Its objectively measured.

5) This can occasionally be true. I recall when diving with you in Great Barrington that one guy would sometimes feel panicky, but we always managed to talk him through it. I didn't find it "ruined" ever, however. Nobody ever made us stop a dive. And the chamber in Great Barrington had a forelock, so if anybody had ever wanted to get out, you could pressurize the forelock, open that inner door, put them in there, close the door, and slowly depressurize them and let them out. But in 2 months of daily dives in Great Barrington nobody ever needed to stop, slow treatment or get out. I think you are really exaggerating!

There is also a camaraderie in multichamber treatments. I personally hate Secrest monochambers, have tried them a few times. Now this is my subjective impression. This is not about effective treatment. This is about the fact that its much harder for me to equalize my ears lying down, that I feel totally claustrophobic lying on my back in what feels like a glass coffin, or a glass missile, with the glass only a few inches above me. I feel ten times more passive than I do in the dentist's chair. In a multichamber or a large size mild portable chamber I can sit up, move around. This makes all the difference in the qaulity of my dive. This is personal, obviously.

6) The oxygen is only going to your lungs vs. your entire body!

This shows you don't understand the mechanism by which itw orks--which is pushing oxygen into the plasma and then the tissue UNDER PRESSURE.

It does not just "stay in your lungs." The pressure is the whole point.

7) Mild chambers do not work for Lyme disease period. In my opinion they are a total waste of time and money. They are not capable of going to 2.4 atm, and are only good for maybe strengthening the immune system at 1.3 atm, you are better off SCUBA diving, which is justthe same effectiveness as a chamber.
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This really irritates me as its completely false. Why do you make such statements? My mild chamber helps me a lot and I know other lymies who feel the same way. SInce lyme dies in partial pressures up to 160 hgmm, there is good evidence even at 1.3 ata of a mild chamber you will get dieoff, and in fact, I do.

The best choice for someone really sick is to do a few months in the clinic and then buy a mild portable home chamber. If it's an either/or I think they should get a home chamber. The problem is that hyperbaric at any pressure that is tolerable to the human is adjucntive. It doesn't cure lyme. So if you do it short term, its rare to hold your gains.

Please stop trashing any form of hyperbaric but a monochamber. Okay?

FInally, this point about twice daily:

I personally think its too much. Remember, tehse protocols were developed fairly arbitrarily. I think a once a day 90 minute treatment is safer for the system. Your partial pressure is raised for hours after a dive. Twice a day, I think can be stressful on the body and is unecessary. Once daily does NOT take twice a long. And one month imo is not enough in most cases. People who do really well with hyperbaric, that I know, did many months.

As for your challenge, most people don't have the time or $ to experiment like that

Remember, people are individual as are their immune systems and microbial loads. There is also a quality of life issue. For me, having my chamber here right next to my desk is an unbelievable godsend. I can get in it whenever I want. The month that it was out for repair was a nightmare to me. The times I dove in clinics, my entire life was spent during that period, aroudn the dives. In driving to Brewster, I left about 9 and got back about 4 or 5. It was like a fulltime job, to get in just one dive a day. If I'd done two, it would've been even longer. In staying in Great Barrington, I basically had to move away from home for 2 months, though I did drive home on a few weekends. I'm not saying its not worth it but the others I dove with usually lived nearby, unlike me.

I'm glad I didn't listen to you because I would've wasted a lot of money and probably wouldn't have worked quite as well at 2.0 ATA.

I never knocked monoplace as effective treatment, did I? You repeatedly say that nothing but monoplace works. This is unfair to the lyme community. Really unfair as you might influence someone in the wrong direction. And you have no evidence to back it up, you make incorrect statements, and you ignore evidence to the contrary.

This is a classic example as to why no one should ever come on to Lymenet and take someones word for something, no matter how much of a big expert they might present themselves to be. Researching the subject on your own is the only way to make a truly informed decision.

I don't know anything about these machines, but it was made very clear...that it is her experience. She wasn't dictating to anyone!

If people are going to start to get argumentive, and are not going to let people have their own opinions, then this board is heading where it was before!

Please everybody get along. Are we here to sell or promote things? This is a place were one comes to find comfort and harmony!

Lymeloco, stating that multiplace chambers have leaks is not an opinion--it sounds like a fact and in fact its an error. Citing ILADS and Dr B as saying monoplace is more effective sounds like much more than an opinion and I find it hard to believe, if they understand how it works.

It's not arguing, I like WC and she has been thru hell, but I would like to see a neutral truth put out there.

quote:

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Originally posted by lymeloco:
It is evident to see that Wild Condor was talking about HER experience!
EXPRESSING HER opinion!

I don't know anything about these machines, but it was made very clear...that it is her experience. She wasn't dictating to anyone!

If people are going to start to get argumentive, and are not going to let people have their own opinions, then this board is heading where it was before!

Please everybody get along. Are we here to sell or promote things? This is a place were one comes to find comfort and harmony!

Remember, we are all in this together!
This is just MY OPINION!!

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I don't believe that for a second, and if any doc does believe this they obviously don't have anything to do with HBOT....rather they've just ``heard'' about it. My well known doc used to be a hyperbaric physician when he was in the military. Does he believe this? Absolutely not.

2. ''Multiplace chambers do not absorb through the skin, which is where spirochetes like to hide when you breathe the pure oxygen under pressure.''

First of all, whether there's oxygen at higher levels around you or not, it has nothing to do with how HBOT works. A mono at 2.0 and and multi at 2.0 will increase the oxygen level in the skin cells the same amount. I don't even understand the other part of your statement. You're saying that when you breathe pure oxygen under pressure that suddenly all the spirochetes run as fast as they can to your skin to avoid the oxygen in your lungs? If that's what you're saying, that's such nonsense it's really sad. They don't run away and the oxygen is increased in the skin at the same levels as a multi using the same pressure.

3. ``Multiplace chambers lose alot of effectiveness through air leaks and the interruption of your treatment from other patients in the chamber.''

Air leaks? What in the world are you talking about? Multi's lose a lot of effectiveness from leaks????? That's an incredibly strong statement that's purely 100% false. Where do you get this stuff? There are no more leaks in multi's than there are in mono's, and as long as the pressure guage shows that the pressure remains where it should, it doesn't matter anyway. I've never been interupted by another patient in the chamber and a lot of times you get the chamber all to yourself, at least the place I go to does. Depends on the time of year.

4. ``Multiplace treatments are often ruined by other patients who are claustophobic and can't equalize their ears.''

Again, another false statement. ``Often ruined'' is a strong statement. Even if a patient rarely does cause a delay, it doesn't ever ``ruin'' your treatment. You get the time you buy, period. It doesn't happen often and doesn't ruin anything.

5. ``It's very frustrating to deal with the lack of individual attention.''

Individual attention for what?? You sit in there for 90 minutes and breath. If you need an attendant to sit 3 feet away and stare at you for 90 minutes in a mono I guess that would be an advantage for using mono. But frankly that freaks me out and I'd rather not have someone stare at me because they have nothing else to look at.

6. ``Treatments are started and stopped so many times it can take hours just do do a single dive.''

Another false statement. I've done 50 in a multi and have never had a dive stopped. I understand it can happen, but not very common. You make it sound like it happens all the time.

7. ``The oxygen is only going to your lungs vs. your entire body! Direct skin penetration is important.''

Again, that statement clearly shows that you have no understanding as to how HBOT works. Please learn about how HBOT works before advising newbies on the subject. Nothing could be further from the truth! Amazing. Multi's populate cells with oxygen all over the body just as mono's do. There's no difference.

8. ``Again, in my opinion, mild chambers do not work for Lyme disease.''

I'm glad you at least have added ``in my opinion'' to this one. But clearly lots of people with Lyme that use them for a long time would like to know why you have that opinion. When they stop using them they get sicker, when they use them they improve. Nothing works for everybody, but for the ones that it does work, are you saying that it's all in their head? I don't think that's fair. Someone that can't afford regular hardchamber treatments but can afford a mild chamber at home should hear that it does work for plenty of Lymies.

9. ``They are not capable of going to 2.4 atm, and are only good for maybe strengthening the immune system at 1.3 atm, you are better off SCUBA diving, which is just the same effectiveness as a chamber.

So at least you agree that they strengthen the immune system. Scuba diving is not more effective, nor is it cheaper, nor as convenient, and certainly not accessible for 99.99% of everyone. And even if one has Lyme, who has the strength to put on all that heavy scuba gear?

10. ``I challenge anyone on here to try 90 dives in a monoplace chamber and then do 90 in a multiplace or mild chamber...and you tell us the difference!''

Nonsense. I already talked to my doc that has had many people try both, and there is no difference when using the same pressure. Mono's are used for little kids, people that like the clear tube....although it does make some people clausterphobic. Mono's are more expensive, they're more of a fire hazard, and many don't go above 2.0 ATA. I think 2.0 is good, but I still think 2.4 or 2.5 isn't a small difference between 2.0. And since the Fife study was done at 2.4 and the logic behind killing the Lyme more quickly than at lower pressures, I can understand why everyone wants to use it.

11. ``I am just telling you how I got better, and the best possible protocol I know of. Hope it helps!''

Well, maybe a little. But it's mostly strong statements stated in more of a factual way. And some of the statements could never be interpreted as being opinions. If I said ``Ladies and gentlemen, the sky is red''. People would say, no it's not Mike!! It's blue. If I say, ``What are you getting so upset about, that's my opinion!! It's my opinion that the sky is red. If you guys don't want to agree with me that fine. That's my opinion. Believe what you want''. I think that's a good analogy as to what's going on here.

I also think that when you try to help other people, that you don't base your opinions on certain treatments solely based on your own experiences. If HBOT didn't work for me, I'm not going to poo poo it because I do know that it's worked for so many others. I wouldn't want someone to miss out on it just because of me.

If a patient only has access to one HBOT clinic within driving range, I don't want them to not try it just because the clinic only has a multi chamber. That's the danger here. The ethical thing to say is ``Mono's seemed to work better for me for some reason, but many people also have great success using the multi's too''.

BTW, I always got/get my most dieoff in any chamber at any pressure in my neck and shoulders. And it happens in the mild chamber at 1.3 ata. After about 45 minutes or more, they get stiffer and more tight and hurt a bit. At the same time, I usually feel better and more energy and calmer and so on.

How much time is usual to be spending in the chamber?

I was doing dives 3x a week (but recently stopped 'cause I'm just too sick). It took about 10 minutes to get up to pressure, I was at a pressure of 3.0 for about 30 to 40 minutes, then about 10 minutes to come down.

I was lucky if I was in the chamber for a total of 60 minutes (and at pressure for 40 minutes).

For me it's been 30 minutes for the pressurizing up and down and 60 minutes at the desired set pressure. So I'm in there for 90 minutes. That's supposed to be the protocol for a lot of treatments. Geez, it doesn't sound like you got the best HBOT treatment. I hope they didn't charge you very much.

Also, for the first 10 or so I actually got worse. But then I slowly started to get much better! I think some people give up on it too quickly.

Maybe he was saying "psi" not ATA.
Please check and let us know. It is not possible he's putting you in at 4.0 for 40 minutes. If he is, he needs to stop!!!!

But I don't believe it. I think you've got PSI mixed up with ATA. When my home chamber goes to, say, 4.5 psi it is going to about 1.3 ATA.

Can you tell us how your experience with HBOT went?

Also, Oxy is correct your treatments should be based on a protocol.

I have some experience as well with HBOT. So if you have any questions feel free to contact me via email.

Regards,

quote:

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Originally posted by WildCondor:
message for Oxygenbabe and 24 bit ....You both have no idea what you are talking about...NONE AT ALL! You are presenting misinformation in a very rude and childish way. You want me to say "In my opinion" yet you sit there and present yours as fact. You demand more attention than a 3 year old! Mild chambers are nothing more than expensive pieces of plastic that do not work for Lyme disease. Multiplace chambers DO leak air through the mask, through the neck gaskets etc. ALL THE TIME!(Yes, some are better than others) Other patients interrupted my treatments in multiplace chambers in 3 different facilities, and on many seperate occasions. Monoplace is best for me, and probably for YOU too! You are wasting away your lives whining and complaining, nitpicking and being afraid. grow up!

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message for Oxygenbabe and 24 bit ....You both have no idea what you are talking about...NONE AT ALL!

Well that's really funny. We've presented successful scientific studies that were done using only multi-chambers, as well as other scientific evidence that we base our opinions on. We also have a lot of antecdotal data from people that are doing well using mild & multi-chambers, as well as other scientific evidence that leans that way. What kind of scientific evidence do you have? You don't have any, and that's why I think this statement is really funny.

You are presenting misinformation in a very rude and childish way.

Again, we have the data and evidence, you have nothing. Scoreboard! Rude and childish? Well I can understand your scorned feelings towards the truth, but it hardly makes us rude and childish.

You want me to say "In my opinion" yet you sit there and present yours as fact.

Well, it might sound like we're presenting our opinion as fact because of the scientific proof and evidence we present. But yes our opinions our based on sound evidence, and I'm sure that's why they sound factual, because they are. We ask that you clearly state ``in your opinion'' because you state your opinion as fact, but have nothing to back it up. So an opinion is only as relavent as the basis in which you form your opinion. In your case, we still trying to figure that out.....and it's completely wrong per the scientific evidence.

You demand more attention than a 3 year old!

Nice one...you go girl!

Mild chambers are nothing more than expensive pieces of plastic that do not work for Lyme disease.

Again, stated as fact and completey wrong with no proof at all to support the statement. We, in contrast, do have some proof and logic to support our opinions on mild chambers.

Multiplace chambers DO leak air through the mask, through the neck gaskets etc. ALL THE TIME!(Yes, some are better than others)

Per my previous post, I suggested that you do some research and learn how HBOT actually works. It appears you still haven't done any reading. When you have a hood on, the oxygen that comes into your hood pretty much goes right into your nose. There's a return hose in the hood by your mouth that vents out the CO2 and some oxygen in the hood. So whether it leaks out around your neck or goes out through the vent, it doesn't matter. It doesn't change the concentration of oxygen in the hood. When you dive at 2.4 for an hour, you can actually get oxygen toxicity if you breath in too much oxygen and many docs have the patients take the hood off for a five minute break while down at 2.4. I never did it, but I was definitely flirting with oxygen toxicity. The higher the pressure, the easier to go oxyegn toxic. So your statement clearly shows that you still don't understand how HBOT works. I still encourage you to learn though.

Other patients interrupted my treatments in multiplace chambers in 3 different facilities, and on many seperate occasions.

And like I said, I never did once. And even if it does occur, as long as you get your time down at the pressure you paid for, it will have zero impact on your treatment. Interuptions suck, but they won't effect your treatment if you get the time in. If you think this hurts your treatment, then it still reflects your lack of HBOT understanding. Not a dig, just the honest truth.

Monoplace is best for me, and probably for YOU too!

And this is what it's all about, isn't it? Your perception is that mono worked for you, multi didn't, so therefore your opinion is that mono only works, and everything else sucks. You ignore scientific studies, you ignore HBOT textbooks that would teach you how HBOT works, you ignore massive antecdotal evidence around you, and you make delusional statements like ``ILADS docs don't like multi's'' which not only can you back up, but it's completely not true. I agree mono's work, but they are more dangerous, costly, and many don't go past 2.0 ATA.

You are wasting away your lives whining and complaining, nitpicking and being afraid.

I like the ``afraid'' adjective the best. Good stuff!

grow up!

I already did........your turn.

This is like arguing if the sky is blue or not. I encourage everyone to research HBOT yourselves and you'll immediately see that the sky is blue. The problem is that not everyone researches treatments and they rely soly on a BBS to tell them what to do. I've made this mistake and I'm sure others have too. There's good stuff on Lymenet, but there's also some crazy whacked information going around too which is very disturbing. I took WC's advice and was going to do mono only, and it would've been a huge costly mistake in more ways than one. That did anger me, but it was my fault for not researching the subject more. I hope everyone does, as well.