Jellybelly
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posted
I just got the results for my mom's Lyme test. You may remember that she is on Avonex, for MS that suppresses the immune system.
The doctor only gave her the IGM Blot results. What looks odd to me is that the WHOLE test is negative except for band 41 which is IND and band 58 is +. It looks like she makes no antibodies to anything at all. Is that unusual and could it be because of the Avonex?
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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I would guess so. If it suppresses the immune system then the next conclusion would be she is NOT producing antibodies. But band 41 and 58 are significant enough to treat.
Band 41 --- Does she have: A. Syphilis B. Gum Disease C. Lyme Disease
Because those are the only things that band 41 can be.
Band 58 is specific also.
From Dr. C:
The following is a brief explanation of the test results. Again, each band is an antigen complexed (bound together) with an antibody made by the immune system, specifically for that antigen (part) of Borrelia burgdorferi. 18: An outer surface protein. 22: Possibly a variant of outer surface protein C. 23-25: Outer surface protein C (osp C). 28: An outer surface protein. 30: Possibly a variant of outer surface protein A. 31: Outer surface protein A (osp A). 34: Outer surface protein B (osp B). 37: Unknown, but it is in the medical literature that it is a borrelia-associated antibody. Other labs consider it significant. 39: Unknown what this antigen is, but based on research at the National Institute of Health (NIH), other Borrelia (such as Borrelia recurrentis that causes relapsing fever), do not even have the genetics to code for the 39 kDa antigen, much less produce it. It is the most specific antibody for borreliosis of all. 41: Flagella or tail. This is how Borrelia burgdorferi moves around, by moving the flagella. Many bacteria have flagella. This is the most common borreliosis antibody. 45: Heat shock protein. This helps the bacteria survive fever. The only bacteria in the world that does not have heat shock proteins is Treponema pallidum, the cause of syphilis. 58: Heat shock protein. 66: Heat shock protein. This is the second most common borrelia antibody. 73: Heat shock protein. 83: This is the DNA or genetic material of Borrelia burgdorferi. It is the same thing as the 93, based upon the medical literature. But laboratories vary in assigning significance to the 83 versus the 93. 93: The DNA or genetic material of Borrelia burgdorferi.
What might help is for her to be off the Anvonex, and go on some ABX so she can start producing antibodies. Then get tested again.
bpeck
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Member # 3235
posted
It's not unusual at all IMO.
The immune system can be supressed because the pathogen has adapted it's host to make it's environment more to the pathogen's liking.
Toss in some immunosuppressants, and the additonal fact that Lyme is probably in the epithelial cells around the brain (sequestered from the immune system anyway) and it becomes easy to see how a WB can totally show no antibody activity at all.
The damn DOcs don't realize that in chronic Lyme - the people with the worst symptoms have the LEAST antibodies.... it's just the opposite of Gram positive titers.
There are no immunosuppresants in my past. For my very initial Lyme testing, I had PCR, IgM and IgG testing 5 weeks after a stint of 56 days of Doxy.
I didn't show any antibodies on either the IgG or IgM, but I was PCR positive/high spirochete load for Lyme.
I have since sero-converted over the past 3 years. (and now show many positive bands on my blots).
Jellybelly
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posted
Thanks you both for your relpies. I am trying to understand the Avonex better. It might not truly be an immunosuppresant. I have been doing some reading on interferon and when you first take it you might likely have flu like symptoms, headaches, chills, fever, etc. They will diminish the longer you have been on it, like months or years. Sound like a herx???
I also found an article that the MS community is following. Thye are finding that a combination of interferon (Avonex) and Minocycline are reversing symptoms in individuals with relapsing and remitting MS.
At first I thought well, duh, it's the minocycline. BUT, maybe the interferon is killing as well.
Does anyone know anything about interferon beta?
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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caat
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band 41 could also be leptopirosis, yaws, and one other spirochete I forget the name of.
Leptospirosis really should be more common than lyme. It's carried by animal or human urine or blood and is waterborne. They rarely test humans for it but often test dogs.
Might be worth testing for leptospirosis.
The syphilis screening test is only 70% accurate and is not accurate at all in late syphilis. A FTA (florescent treponomal antibody) syphilis test is much more accurate. Might be good to rule out.
Treatment for any spirochete is pretty simular anyway though.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
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-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Jellybelly
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Her test result is the IGM Tutu. I don't know if they didn't do the IGG or it just was forgotten when they gave her the results. I know that when I ordered the test, I asked for both.
Isn't it the IGM that is more usefull in chronic late stage Lyme?
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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dmc
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two articles about interferon drugs...I was diagnosed MS in 1988 prior to the so called MS drugs invented. Those I know (4) w/so called MS that started those drugs the Betaseron & Avonex back in the 1990's are now in convelesant homes. Sure convinced me never to take them. Even better that I found out Lyme causes an MS response in alot of people.
Just don't think suppressing immune system helps when MS is a disease named for symptom and immune system is reacting to a pathogen.
Just my opinion.
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Jellybelly
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Member # 7142
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Thanks DMC. I couldn't find anything that said interferon beta suppressed the immune system. I think they consider it an anti-viral, but does that just mean the immune system stops trying to destroy any viruses present.
Also thought interesting about the liver damage. My mom had a serious yeast infection all over her skin. Doctor was very concerned about treating her with Diflucan for more then 7 days. Bet that is the reason why.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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Speaking of immuno-supressant drugs, my husband is a tranplant patient. He and I both had our RX's refilled today, his for Cellcept (anti-rejection, immuno-supressant) and my amoxy. Both are in capsule form and in BIG rx pill bottles.
Care to guess who's meds I took tonight???
I called my primary care doctor. They are not overly concerned about a one time mistake. I on the other hand am pretty nervous about it.
Maybe it was subliminal, with all this reading about immuno-surpressant drugs Posts: 20 | From Northwestern PA | Registered: Apr 2005
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caat
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Member # 2321
posted
Maybe you should double check and see if that Doc's office has the IGG part. If they don't- do you have a receipt or can you call the lab that did it and explain part of the test is missing and ask why?
Stuff has been known to get lost...
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
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I meant IgG! Read the info in the link I gave. Dr C explains the IgG and IgM and why both are important in diagnosing.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Jellybelly
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I will ask her to pursue the IGg. I read the info, your right it is important. Thanks
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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Read the info in the link I gave. Dr C explains the IgG and IgM and why both are important in diagnosing.
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