klutzo
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Here is an article on Lyme which contains info on research being done re: injectible bismuth to kill even the cystic forms of Lyme. It's an excellent read, and gives me hope, since I am allergic to ABX and have relied on Samento so far. http://www.townsendletter.com/Jan2005/lyme0105.htm Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Sue vG
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I would advise anyone with known heavy metal issues to avoid this. You don't need to feed your tissues more metals if you're one of the folks who can't excrete them efficiently.
A variety of tests administered through naturopaths and places like the Pfeiffer Treatment Center (http://www.hriptc.org) can determine if you're a "metal hoarder".
Posts: 1307 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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david1097
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If I recall correctly, a review of the older texts on pharmacology will show that bismuth was used as a treatment for syphilis prior to the discovery of antibiotics. It has for obvious reasons has fallen out of favor but I have often wondered if its eficacy has every been studied sufficiently since it has been droped as a treatment protocol.
From what I remember (don't in any way quote me on any of this stuff) the toxicity of bismuth was rather low as compared to other heavier elements. I don't however rember what the metabolism route or rate was.
If some one happens to go to a medical school library, the older medical texts make quite interesting reading as there are a lot of old treatments that appeated to work but have been abandoned in favor of the newer (and coincidentially more expensive) drugs.
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Sue vG
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Overall bismuth toxicity to the "average" population isn't the issue to those individuals who have metal metabolism disorders - even tiny amounts would add to the body's overall toxic burden.
The problem is, no one (myself included) seems to get this diagnosed until it's apparent there's a big problem and toxic damage has already been done by failure to adequately excrete metals.
So, you don't know you have the problem until it's "too late".
For the rest of the population who does not have this challenge, have at it! Posts: 1307 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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klutzo
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Sue, I wondered about that when reading about this, since bismuth was one of the toxic metals I was tested for. Mine was very low, as were all other metals except zirconium (I stopped using deodorant immediately after seeing that and just make sure I take a shower right after exercise or heavy housework, etc.). However, I think it may be dose dependent.I am on week two of a protocol someone here gave me, and it is helping me so much I can hardly believe it. The first week involved taking Pepto Bismol every night to kill Bb in the gut, plus Zantac and massive doses of Probiotics. It was not until week two that I got the huge boost in energy and deep sleep.....I am now taking liquid Mg, lecithin, and a small amt. of B Complex every 2 hrs., an incredible hassle, but worth it. Last night I slept 10 1/2 hrs. after yrs. of barely sleeping at all. I slept deeply too, sleeping right through my husband leaving for work and the trash truck coming by. I have a ton of energy and am in a decent mood too. Back to the subject....the small amt. of bismuth did not seem to hurt me, so maybe they can get the dose down to where it will at least be less dangerous than long-term ABX, and for those who are allergic to all ABX (except Cipro) like me, it may be life-saving....the verdict is still out, since it's not even approved for use yet. Klutzo
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David95928
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If you google the trade name given above, Bismacine, there are several entires about patient deaths after being given this stuff, in Mexico.
-------------------- Dave Posts: 2034 | From CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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klutzo
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David, Geez! I did not think to try that, but I will. No wonder they are experimenting with this in Mexico, where anything goes....horrible. It's too bad....I was so hoping this would be something worthwhile. I wonder why they are continuing the testing if it is killing people.... Thanks for the heads up. Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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klutzo
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I Googled it, but could not find anything about deaths in Mexico. What I did find was two horrible cases where an LLMD in Kansas gave Bismacine by IV, not IM. I have no idea why he did it that way. One woman went into renal failure on the first IV and is on dialysis now. One man went into renal failure and cardiac arrest on his second IV, and is basically comatose now, as far as I could tell from the legal papers. It looked to me like there will be one less LLMD in Kansas. As horrible as that is, I know of someone locally who went into renal failure from a vitamin C IV, so maybe it was giving it by IV that was the major problem....I have no idea. I guess we will have to wait and see if this tx ever develops into something, or is just another dead end. Klutzo
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oxygenbabe
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Besides being toxic, who's to say it wouldn't simply suppress spirochetes, so you'd end up once off it with a toxic metal and a relapse.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
i've googled bismacine, and am drilling deep into the medico-legal stuff on it.
it'll take a week to digest all the findings, negative, and positive.
so far as i've read, there seems to be more than a few people who have tried this; of course, the dead can't come on board to 'comment' on their experience, but i wish their freinds and family members would.
some of what i've read implies that there a many alive, who tried bismacine--- as it was incorporated into therapy comprising other agents. there must be more than a few who "survived" to relate their experienc, negative and positive; yet, in the past 6 years i've been on this board, not one person treated with this therapy posted their personal experience with bismacine. many lymies traveled the world over, getting treatments in different countries, including mexico, yet they just somehow missed this one. i find this strange, if not odd.
i'm not for or against this therapy, but just doing some fact-finding on it, in particular the use of bismacine.
david1097
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Hi again
I dusted off one of my old textbooks, :drill's pharmacology in medicine circa 1958" I will paraphase an interesting paragrpah on bismuth.
"therapeutic uses bthmus compunds until recently, were of major importance as a treatment for syphilis"
and
"a variety of bismuth compounds dissolved or suspended in oil have been used in the treatment of syphilis, this following IM injection....being completely absorbed by the muscle in a few hours....This treatment is now obsolete"
and
"after the injection of bismuth compounds, bismuth has been detected in all tissues in the body but especially the kidneys...
for what its worth.
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klutzo
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Very interesting! The tx may have become obsolete only due to the invention of ABX,(collodial silver being another example) which could still make it valuable for those like me who have serious ABX allergy. Thanks for the info.... Klutzo
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Areneli
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Salvarsan (form of arsenic) was used previously for treatment of syphilis with some success.
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Truthfinder
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Another aspect of this could be that since Bismuth is a natural substance, drug companies can't patent it and make lots of money. I wonder if "obsolete" in this case really means "not profitable"?
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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I wonder if the aggregation of h pylori cells and the layer of goo it produces could be described as a biofilm. Kinda sounds like it to me.
The message I got from the articles linked above is that bismuth in gastro symptoms of lyme might be useful, not sure about other symptoms, and not sure if it is always possible to determine whether lyme or bartonella is causing the gastro symptoms. Both will do this.
I have a copy of the text by Stokes from the 1940s, on syphilis diagnosis and treatment. It has the older treatments, and was in on the beginning of the penicillin revolution. Will go thru and see what is said about bismuth, post the info here. This book is a monster, 1000+ pages, with some awful pix.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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Sheesh. There is a very large amount of discussion on bismuth in this book. Too much to outline here.
In general, it is described as being less toxic than the other heavy metals used in syphilis treatment at that time, such as arsenic and mercury. Compared with the bad boys, it looked good, but that is only relative.
There is a two page chart on various forms of bismuth used, and many paragraphs about the route of administration and solubility issues, as in water and oil suspensions.
In general IM preferred to oral, IV definitely not a good idea. Gluteal muscles preferred as site of injection because muscle use improves absorption. However, all IM produced necrosis to some extent. Gives a chart of hints to avoid trouble with IM injections (sounds like it might be useful with bicillin maybe?).
Bismuth, at this time, was thought to be superior to mercury, because it was less toxic, but not as good as arsenicals. Was also used in combinations, with other therapies, such as fever therapy.
Bismuth worked better for some symptoms than for others. Mechanism of action not settled at the time: might be acting as catalyst, possibly influenced by glutathione, or directly as spirocheticidal agent.
Lot of varying opinions at the time on syphilis treatments. But all the old stuff seemed to them to work less well and with more toxicity than penicillin, which is why they were dumped when the age of abx came along.
There is a whole page of small type on the toxicology of bismuth.
Seems to me that this should be more thoroughly explored by medical professionals/researchers before jumping into it. The fact is that even now the treatment of syphilis is not a sure thing, and the management of that disease is subject to varying opinions. Seems like they have had plenty of time to sort syphilis out, no excuse there as could be used in a "newer" spirochetal disease like Lyme. However, that dope Steere says he knows nothing about syphilis. Wouldn't you think any competent medical person would want to understand the oldest and widest spread kete disease, as a way of understanding a newer one? Not saying they are the same, but there are many similarities.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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a google of 'bismuth citrate + borrelia' produced many links on lyme and bismuth; more specifically, RANITIDINE BISMUTH CITRATE.
this should have some good use, though limited only to the gut, i should think.
on a related note,you can find a very intriguing, actual account of bismuth poisoning of a guy with the use of a form of Bismuth prescribed to him, and is worth every word by virtue of the paucity of such accounts. the story is in the paperback book by
carl phifer, ph.d,and/or m.d. (spell. is bad tonight, check last name)
title of book: "zinc and other micronutrients"
cost = free to a dime at a garage sale.
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Sue vG
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Carl Pfeiffer. The Pfeiffer Treatment Center in Illinois diagnosed my metallothionein disorder and gave me the tools I needed to manage it.
Check out http://www.hriptc.org for articles by Pfeiffer and colleagues on the effects of various metals on people with different baseline constitutions.
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