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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Why is Lyme so difficult to diagnose? And so difficult to treat successfully?

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Author Topic: Why is Lyme so difficult to diagnose? And so difficult to treat successfully?
GiGi
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To answer this, here are a few minutes of the many hours (more than 25 hours) of lecture from the last Lyme seminar (a week ago) for medical professionals held by Dr. K. which I and some from Lymenet attended. These are from my notes and recordings. I hope you all appreciate my efforts.

Dr. K. is the teacher speaking:

``What I want you to come home with is, first of all, that all of us have a body that is not sterile inside, but it is an ecosystem, it is alive inside consisting of a combination of our own body cells that we got from our parents and farther out from their acquired organisms.

The acquired organisms are a large group that is first of all --- anyone of us has 8-12 pounds of living material in the bowel. All of us agree on that one, even most conventional medical science have that. This is a very important part of our immune system - what's in here. It is an estimated 12,000 different species of bugs, and the only ones that we ever named that you know are acidophilus and bifidus. That's two out of 12,000 bugs. And yes, they are present in large amounts, but there is 11,998 other bugs in there. They have rarely been categorized and catalogued.

Beyond that, we know that the tissues are not sterile either, but there is a constant motion of microbes through our tissues and the brain, in the body fluids, in the lymph system, in the lymph nodes, in the blood and everywhere. Some of these we have begun to name in the last 20 years, and Lyme Disease, mycoplasma, Chlamydia pneu, strep, staph, and all of you have coagulate negative staph in your sinuses and in your nose, in your mucus membranes, and they move freely into the brain; so there is a constant circulation. So all of these things are proven now -- that we are not sterile inside.

What we also know is -- that when our matrix, our system inside, is increasingly polluted with man-made substances that were not intended to be there, it changes the living environment that favors some of these microbes. They now sort of sprout and grow larger colonies and start behaving in ways that are different than the way they were behaving before. Just like when you have a two-year old girl and give her a glass of wine to drink, she is going to start behaving differently - that angel that was there a moment ago, is not going to be such an angel the next moment.

If you feed a Lyme spirochete that is very peacefully in your system, just sort of wanting to nab away your glucosaminoglycans from time to time, but otherwise have a pretty peaceful relationship with you. If you feed that spirochete suddenly with mercury and lead and solvents and phthalates ( plastics), it is going to start behaving in ways that it did not behave before. And things go out of balance that way.

We are losing the equilibrium that we have achieved over millions of years with the bugs that we are living with and it is suddenly becoming out of whack. I think most of you have an intuitive feeling of the truth of this. That there is something out of balance, And it is these microbes that have gone out of balance with each other for those reasons.

We aim - the ultimate aim that any physician should have - is to look at the environmental backdrop and causes that are leading to this. Can we really go forward as humanity? Can we keep evolving as a humanity in a good benign life-affirmative way as we have, with all things in place that we are having right now - automobile industry, pharma industry, carpet industry, the sick building industry? Can we really move forward in the way we have?

The answer any biologist, any chemist, any engineer who looks at the data that are there, anybody with a little bit of brain can give you an answer to that question, and it will be a radiant resounding NO. We cannot go forward with it. Right now, we are sort of facing this thing that everybody knows we cannot go forward like this, and yet it is quite comfortable still where it is at, and so we don't want to rock the boat too much. Like the titanic?

It has been the teaching in ART, if I find Borrelia Burgdorferi, that means that that very bug is there, or - that another bug is in there that has snatched a little bit of DNA from Burgdorferi from the plasmid exchange and has now incorporated that in their DNA. That similarity is what we are detecting - the resonance between identical substances - that is the firm position of ART.

The funny thing is now that microbiologists are now discovering with their lab testing the same thing. They find that if somebody is testing for Borrelia Burgdorferi, there is a large likelihood that it is BB and that it could also be Yersinia, because of the cross reactivity. Cross reactivity simply means that this bug they are finding has enough antigenic similarity of the other bug. We have known that for twenty years. It is a lot similar to homeopathy. It is not called the Law of Same - some substances are similar enough that you can't differentiate them. And the bugs have learned to exchange through plasmids and other mechanisms their DNA and other mechanisms that they need to live with us; they are communicating that very quickly. Just like we do not with the internet - we communicate little tricks we find very quickly.

With that, it means we can never ever again make a firm diagnosis in microbiology. Every microbiologist knows that. When you see a worm that looks like ascaris, it may be ascaris, but it could also be a tapeworm that has recently mutated to look like ascaris, but has all the characteristics of atenia(sp?). So the wonderful thing with ART testing is we move through the state, we make the diagnosis. Aha, our test of Borrelia is testing positive and then we move straight from there - to look at what herb, what antibiotic is testing for it. And no matter what mistakes we made in the diagnostic part by winging it one way or the other, the moment we are testing the substance for treatment, we are again on very sure footing to find the exact remedy that the patient needs in that moment.

There are these stages in testing, in laboratory testing or in ART testing. First, you examine the patient. You arrive at a sort of vague idea what it may be, then you do either lab testing or ART testing and whatever comes back there is n o t the truth. It is an approximateion of the truth. Based on that you have an idea what the therapy would be and then you hope that it is going to hit the bug that you thought was there.

In ART testing, we are much closer to the truth. We get first of all --- we always test the ecosystem. Some are now discovering that you should test Yersinia and Chlamydia pneu and Mycoplasma pneu always - that has been in our test kit for the last fifteen years.
We have already tested all those bugs, always at the same time with each other because we reazilied that it is an ecosystem that we are testing that exchanges DNA with each other.

I want to make this clear. When we do an ART diagnosis or lab diagnosis, this is not cast in stone. In the ultimate analysis it is really this bug. However, it is going to be a bug that is going to be responsive to similar treatments. If a mycoplasma has incorporated DNA from a strep bacteria, this mycoplasma now becomes vulnerable to penicillin even though this mycoplasma was before only responseive to Doxycyclin. The moment it steals something from somebody else who has a certain vulnerability, it does not only get strength that comes with that, but it also gets the vulnerability. That's the beauty of the ART testing - that will give us always the right treatment with it.

So with this all said, I just want to go over the principles: The first step in our work is that we clean up the person's environment. We call this the Seven Factors. This is the first thing we do with every patient, regardless of what the diagnosis is - whether they have an ingrown toenail or whether they have terminal cancer. The Seven Factors are the presence of toxins in the body that we look at: It is food allergies; it is nutritional deficiencies; it is the interference fields that we learned about from Neural Therapy (the scars), the teeth, the occlusion in the mouth; it is man-made biophysical stress; electrosmog, and geopathic stress; and it is the psycho-emotional issues.

Those are the seven big ones that we have to address in every patient that comes to us - whether they have an acute illness or chronic illness.

Most failures that we see in my office that come from other people are based on --- because nobody has done that careful screening of these other things."

Take care.

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SForsgren
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Even after having been at the conference, it is good to read this again and reinforce the message of balance and creating an inhospitable ecosystem than simply killing the bugs outright.... Thanks for documenting this for all of us.

--------------------
Be well,
Scott

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Kentucky Girl
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sorry,

[ 27. January 2006, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Kentucky Girl ]

--------------------
Dani

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GiGi
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The time frame is unimportant. It's what has and is happening over time, that's important.

Take care.

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5dana8
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Thanks GiGi
If the human body has 12,000 different species of bugs and we are only putting in like 12 different species this is scary.

Wow ,how can our bodies replace all the flora the abx has wiped out? This is a check 22 because without the abx I was so much worse and probably would be dead right now.

I think maybe we might get some back thru food, but I think alot of it is herited in birth?
Wow.Am I screwd?

--------------------
5dana8

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pq
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Appropos of the laboratorial "difficulties", consider http://actionlyme.com for an exposition on the historical, current, and probably future developments with respect to antibody testing, and treatment guidelines stemming therefrom.

[ 24. January 2006, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: pq ]

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brentb
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The first step in our work is that we clean up the person's environment. We call this the Seven Factors.
----------------------------------------------------
if anyone knows more about the seven factors I'd luv to hear about it.
yep, the relationship of borrelia and humans has been going on for millenia and most borrelia is indeed asymptomatic. great stuff!

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treepatrol
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quote:
Originally posted by pq:
Appropos of the laboratorial "difficulties", consider http://actionlyme.com for an exposition on the historical, current, and probably future developments with respect to antibody testing, and treatment guidelines stemming therefrom.

PQ your link isnt taking me there????

Could it be this one?
http://actionlyme.org

--------------------
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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brentb
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quote:
Originally posted by 5dana8:
Thanks GiGi
I think maybe we might get some back thru food, but I think alot of it is herited in birth?
Wow.Am I screwd?

Nope, I don't think your screwed but it's a great example of how abx throw the normal balance out of wack. As to the inheritance of bacteria the importance of breast milk cannot be ignored.

http://www.musckids.com/health_library/newborn/bfmilk.htm
anti-infective properties
Only human milk is alive with many different kinds of disease-fighting factors that help prevent mild to severe infections. Babies who are fully or almost-fully breastfed, or breast milk-fed babies, have significantly fewer gastrointestinal, respiratory, ear, and urinary infections. Antibodies in human milk directly protect against infection. Other anti-infective factors create an environment that is friendly to "good" bacteria, referred to as "normal flora," and unfriendly to "bad" bacteria, viruses, or parasites. Human milk also appears to have properties that help a baby's own immune system work best. If your baby does become ill when breastfeeding and receiving your milk, the infection is likely to be less severe.

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Mo
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That's definately one for the hard copy file!

Thank you. GiGi, for taking the notes and the time to put it here in print for us.

I copy ans save most all of your posts, and have a separate file for your Doc K seminar notes.

Dana -- when I first started learning and looking at things from this much broader view..
I felt the same way..

I said to myself:

" Holy crap, we're &$#@ -ed! " [Eek!]

But, really...this is empowering information once you get down to fully understanding and applying it.

We CAN detox and work on the Seven factors..
and there are also (for just one thing) several thousands of good bacteria and simple and potent ways to get them back through fermented and cultured foods (that our ancestors ate regularly)..
there can act in assistance like special forces on the frontlines (in the gut)

We can clear our organs out safely and maintain them --

all this necessary in addition to targeting the bad bacteria run a-muck, and the body itself, once the layers of burden are lifted, accomplishes great things as well.

I've come to the point where (even tho it is a dastardly bacteria, no doubt) ..
I've come to the point where I feel Lyme is incidental.

In the state my body was in in full bown system failure..
if not Bb, it could have been Cancer.

Both require much of the same work to get well.

Mo

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pq
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Treepatrol,

yes, its http://actionlyme.org
sorry about that.

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5dana8
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Mo: that makes sense and is good food for thought,and somewhat comforting.Fermented foods and cultured foods I haven't begun to explore but will now.

It is hard to do stuff like make my on keifer or sourcrout because I have such little energy.But will try harder in the future.

Brentb:Not trying to trash you but since I am no longer breast feeding I am not sure how we can replace our flora with human milk.
I may be mis-reading your post though.

Take care

--------------------
5dana8

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brentb
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quote:
Originally posted by 5dana8:


I may be mis-reading your post though.

Take care

I'm bad about making points. My point is that we begin screwing up our systems at birth. The normal flora is different from babies who use breast milk and those that do not. more of an fyi than anything.
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5dana8
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Brentb
You have made a good point in that from the beginning we are starting off one the wrong track.
Thanks & take Care

--------------------
5dana8

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treepatrol
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It has been the teaching in ART, if I find Borrelia Burgdorferi, that means that that very bug is there, or - that another bug is in there that has snatched a little bit of DNA from Burgdorferi from the plasmid exchange and has now incorporated that in their DNA. That similarity is what we are detecting - the resonance between identical substances - that is the firm position of ART.

The funny thing is now that microbiologists are now discovering with their lab testing the same thing. They find that if somebody is testing for Borrelia Burgdorferi, there is a large likelihood that it is BB and that it could also be Yersinia, because of the cross reactivity. Cross reactivity simply means that this bug they are finding has enough antigenic similarity of the other bug. We have known that for twenty years. It is a lot similar to homeopathy. It is not called the Law of Same - some substances are similar enough that you can't differentiate them. And the bugs have learned to exchange through plasmids and other mechanisms their DNA and other mechanisms that they need to live with us; they are communicating that very quickly. Just like we do not with the internet - we communicate little tricks we find very quickly.

Thats what I have been saying exact same thing there exchanging pieces and parts with everything no dam wonder its hard to kill and find

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

Newbie Links

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GiGi
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BrentB, I have heard a lot about breastfeeding from Dr. K. over the years. In the sixties they told us not to breastfeed!!!! Here are my notes and recordings from last week's seminar when Dr. K. talked about this subject. Brace yourself!

Breastfeeding

If you have a mom with Lyme Disease and she is breastfeeding, I have stopped
a few moms from breastfeeding. I know it is an unpopular thought. We are checking two things in the breastmilk now - we are checking PBDE's - that's a chemical from flame retardants that is now in all breastmilk. Breastmilk is fat, and (we have the FDA study on it) that shows that in general American breastmilk is now so toxic that you are not allowed to flush it down the toilet. If you want to dispose of it, it has to be disposed of on a special landfill - when you take the toxic criteria of breastmilk. - the general established criteria for it.

We have a lab in Texas that is checking for this. Unfortunately, it is in high levels with most women. You also have to be aware that when mom has Lyme Disease and toxic milk for other reasons, it may not be a good idea to breastfeed. I am taking that position today. I may be change that again. But just in general, the thought that breastfeeding is better than not breastfeeding is just not true anymore from a scientific point of view.

Breastmilk is mostly fat and fat accumulates fat soluble toxins, and so breastmilk has become a dangerous item and it is a very very difficult decision to make.

We found that we can clean up the breastmilk with Chlorella - it actually turns greenish/. We also know that Lyme Disease is passed on - so spirochetes and cysts are transmitted to the baby. Most babies handle it well. Most are asymptomatic until high up into their teens before the symptoms start. But they may be starting earlier and earlier because of the co-toxicity from other issues." (If you have paid attention to me over the years, you know darn well what the other issues are! gg)

Take care.

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tequeslady
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Gigi:

Thanks for being so incredibly generous with your time and knowledge in sharing all these things with us. You're well and I'm sure have a lot of more interesting things to do, but yet you come back here and try to help us all.

thank you!

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JimBoB
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KENTUCKY GIRL:

I "think" when you said the "earth" has only been here for six thousand years, you actually meant MANKIND has been here for a little over 6,000 years. I spent over 30 years studying the Bible chronology, and mankinds existance here on earth from other sources too.

The earth HAS been here for millions, maybe billions of years, but not mankind. The animals were here even longer, maybe 7,000 years longer, and the green vegetation to support them another 7,000 years or so.

Remember, the earth had to be formed from gases, which were super hot, from the super energy creater, then had to cool for mileniums and turned into the rock and other elements we see the earth made up of today.

It is a very deep study, and of course the general scientists, just like our general MD's have their head in the sand, as it were, and do NOT take ALL things into consideration when studying it.

MANY actually believe in the BIG Bang Joke,
I mean theory. It is NOT really funny.

This Dr. K. SEEMS to go deeper in his belief and study system than most MD's, so therefore is quite possibly on to something here. Time is sure going to tell, IF we have enough time, that is.

BUT, how many will really LISTEN to WHAT he is saying. MOST will not, to be sure. THEY are too set in their ways, AND they don't want to be confused with the facts. They prefer to "continue" on in their easier belief of ignorance, and follow the leader frame of mind. Their leader, in THIS case, being the CDC.

IF you have other questions on this, please PM me.

Thanks,
Jim [hi]

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JimBoB
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Dana:

There are several ways to get back your GOOD bacteria. One is Acidophilus from your health food supplier.

Another is to quit the antibiotics for a period and let the good bacteria build up.

Another is to take MORE natural herbs, and LESS antibiotics.

AND there are others, but I think you get the point.

MOST of the medical profession are afraid of giving LONG TERM antibiotics, and rightfully so. They DO screw up our NATURAL systems. SOME are necessary because things have gotten SO out of hand in the past 50 years or so with our industrialization, and trying to keep foods cheaper by all the unnatural chemicals and other additives.

WE are "pickled"! [Big Grin]

Keep fighting, but LOOK for better ways when you are not getting cured one way.

Jim [hi]

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lymelady
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quote:
Originally posted by GiGi:
BrentB, I have heard a lot about breastfeeding from Dr. K. over the years. In the sixties they told us not to breastfeed!!!! Here are my notes and recordings from last week's seminar when Dr. K. talked about this subject. Brace yourself!

Breastfeeding

If you have a mom with Lyme Disease and she is breastfeeding, I have stopped
a few moms from breastfeeding. I know it is an unpopular thought. We are checking two things in the breastmilk now - we are checking PBDE's - that's a chemical from flame retardants that is now in all breastmilk. Breastmilk is fat, and (we have the FDA study on it) that shows that in general American breastmilk is now so toxic that you are not allowed to flush it down the toilet. If you want to dispose of it, it has to be disposed of on a special landfill - when you take the toxic criteria of breastmilk. - the general established criteria for it.

We have a lab in Texas that is checking for this. Unfortunately, it is in high levels with most women. You also have to be aware that when mom has Lyme Disease and toxic milk for other reasons, it may not be a good idea to breastfeed. I am taking that position today. I may be change that again. But just in general, the thought that breastfeeding is better than not breastfeeding is just not true anymore from a scientific point of view.

Breastmilk is mostly fat and fat accumulates fat soluble toxins, and so breastmilk has become a dangerous item and it is a very very difficult decision to make.

We found that we can clean up the breastmilk with Chlorella - it actually turns greenish/. We also know that Lyme Disease is passed on - so spirochetes and cysts are transmitted to the baby. Most babies handle it well. Most are asymptomatic until high up into their teens before the symptoms start. But they may be starting earlier and earlier because of the co-toxicity from other issues." (If you have paid attention to me over the years, you know darn well what the other issues are! gg)

Take care.

I find this rediculous. Many, or maybe, most women have Lyme disease many or most undetected or non-symptamatic. Many, or maybe, most women live their whole lives with it and do fine and have healthy children, who they breastfeed and they do fine. Not everytone gets horribly sick from Lyme disease. Iknow many who have had a positive Bowen test and live very healthy lives.

He has clearly crossed the line here between somewhat believable and idiotic. I hope women do not choose to NOT breastfeed based on these silly comments. We all live in this world and cannot eliminate every toxic thing we run across. Breast feeding in a very important start for your babies.

Lyme is so prevalent that if your babies contract it from your milk or from a walk through their yard where a biting fly takes a chunk out of you, it is almost impossible to avoid. NOT breasfeeding is a crapshoot that that takes much more away from the baby than it gains by thinking it will avoid the prospect of Lyme.

Klinghardt is excellent at times, but he sometimes goes way over the line of common sense. Part of the research we all do is learning to delineate from what is true (as best we know it) and what is stupid. This is stupid.
Lymelady

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Mo
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Actually, LymeLady..

Klinghardt is saying that he may well revisit his opinion on this.

He is also stating, based on science..there is some increased question as to the quality of breast milk in todays world.
I find the insights incredibly forward thinking.

if our (all of us humans, not just the symptomatic) bodies, blood, tissues and immune systems are showing signs of such an overload of toxins and microbes..
also the scientific fact that fat holds on to toxins is something to at least consider on the scheme of things.

I'm not so sure there is some majic filter in the body that cleans our milk sufficiently anough to make this a non-issue..

MD's were also taught in school that our blood is sterile.

All you have to do is get a really high powered microscope and look at live blood to see that is entirely untrue..mine had all kinds of unidentified flying objectc in it when I had a look a couple of years ago, and not just TBD's.

Doctor Jones advises against breastfeeding infants in all cases of TBD's.

My daughter contracted Lyme and other infections from my milk, and got severely ill within 6 weeks of my bullseye rash, while I was nursing as everyone right on up to the head Doc at La Leche told me this was OK.. (plus she contracted Bartonella, Mycoplasma, and I'm sure a few other things) , and spirochetes were found in the milk via PCR ay MDL labs, as well as Bowen pictures.

Sure, in many cases the babies might combat that kind of exposure and be relatively OK.

-- in some cases, like my daughter's...the scales will tip too far against their brand new systems.

A previously robust and well developed baby through pregnancy, birth, and up to ten months of age - was reduced to hardly talking or moving, and with her head hanging to one side all day long.

She looked like she had autism. All her photos and the marked differences through that time are stunning.

I am not trying to bring emotion into this, but more as a scientific or broader view that even I have taken on as I talk about it.

There are definite benefits to breastfeeding, great ones all around..I was most enthusiastic about doing it..

I think Doc K's point is that there are also definite risks.

What I take away from it is that we must weigh them carefully in each case, also requiring learning allot more about the risks..
to begin to know if the benefit/risk ratio for the boby's welfare is ALWAYS pro-nursing.
(in today's environment and general state of health case by case - I was extremely robust in health through my pregnancy and even after the bullseye, I just felt like I had the flu at the time, I did not just give her Bb via nursing)

and also I take it to mean humans on the Earth today need to learn allot more about holistic healthcare and work hard to keep their bodies clean for theimselves and their babies, and future generations.
Environmental issues are a close second to this.

I don't think that's stupid at all. I think it is entirely necessary.

I wish I had known what I do now about cleaning my body back then. This piece of writing would have goten me thinking.

Mo

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GiGi
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What I didn't tell you as Dr. K. was telling the audience:

He treated a mom that came to him with her 4th pregnancy - for guidance. Her first three pregnancies had all ended in tragedy. All infants were born, started into seizures right away, and all three children died less than six weeks old.

She was already pregnant. He guided her through a detox program, and of course discovered that she had Lyme Disease. He treated her with the different herbals, even though it is generally not recommended in pregnancy, etc, etc. (PC-Noni, PC-Samento, lots of chlorella, I don't know all details), advised her not to breastfeed: She gave birth to a healthy baby - the baby is healthy today - .

Another baby story: not any of the siblings could have children, or children that were born healthy. After digging into the details of the family life, and discovering that one of them showed pesticides in her breastmilk, it was found that the father of the family, who died several years ago, was in the crop dusting profession.
He came home from work, brought home his dusty clothes.

The girls in the family all picked up the pesticides from a young age on.

I hasten to say -- Lymelady, when you say

"Klinghardt is excellent at times, but he sometimes goes way over the line of common sense. Part of the research we all do is learning to delineate from what is true (as best we know it) and what is stupid. This is stupid."

you are way off the mark with your comments.

Here is another "baby" story. My own.
My own son died at seven weeks old - I was mercury toxic, which I was not aware of in those days, and my son received a vaccination in the morning preserved with thimerosol. I had dutifully lovingly breastfed him all seven weeks of his life. He was fine in the morning, and died nine hours after the vaccination. That's what is referred to as cumulative toxicity.

It's wake-up time!

Take care.

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Mo
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My deepest condolances, GiGi. [Frown]

Thank you so much for what you do. You are an amazing one-woman movement around here, something to marvel at - and you do it solely to help others. We surely need your information.

You should know that you are waking people up. That also resonates throughout our families and our lives.

Many Blesings,

Mo

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JimBoB
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You will NEVER get the majority to take a look at and change to a "healthy lifestyle and environment. Mankind is too into the pleasures of this system we live in. We are "trained" by the big sell corporations, especially in this country.

If you think breast milk is bad, just think of all the BAD blood transfusions that MUST have gone on over the years. Especially the last few with Lyme such an epidemic now and people don't even know it.

There is not enough money in the world to get ME to take ANYONE's blood. Would rather die first.

EVERYONE has opinions, and WE ALL make mistakes from time to time and HOPEFULLY we are humble enough to eat a little crow, and learn from them, and take a new course when necessary.

Jim [Cool]

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lymelady
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I hear all of you and am very sorry for what happened to you Gigi, what a terrible experience and so hard to ever get over. I almost lost two of my my own children in terrible (but separate) accidents and it changed me forever.

I have always been a strong proponent of breastfeeding and breastfed all of my children for about 9 months each.

My point here is that the toxic environment we live in affects everything, including the formula we give our babies. This formula does not have the immunities we as mothers have developed throughout our lives.

I agree if you have a raging case of lyme you should not breastfeed your baby, probably you should not even have a baby at all, because the baby has already gotten lyme in utero.

I am a congenital case of lyme. My father died of complications of lyme disease in 1983, having been treated with cortizone for his kidney and arthritis problems. His kidneys failed him completely at the last.

Now as I make progress with this disease, I realize I have had it all of my life.

So I know that probably all of my children have it also, my youngest in particular. They at the moment show no symptoms but I am convinced they would all turn up positive on the Bowen test.

I hope that general good health (which they have always had knock on wood) will help them to fight the onslaught of an overt case of lyme, but you never know.

My feeling is that anything we as the population can do to keep our immune systems healthy to keep lyme at bay is necessary and in my opinion breasfeeding gives babies a great start in this direction.

I feel strongly about this but did not intend to come off sounding so "mean." I apologize for this. Toxins are everywhere and we must learn to live with them as best we can, clean them up as best we can but be careful about blanket actions that could ultimately hurt our chldren.
Lymelady

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brentb
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There is not enough money in the world to get ME to take ANYONE's blood. Would rather die first.
---------------------------------------------------
Hate to drag silver into every thread but adding it to our blood supply would clean it up almost overnight.

When the day comes and the average persons milk becomes toxic we are in a sad state of affairs. I've read the studies of the benefits but no so much the risk of breastfeeding. We pollute the world and we pollute ourselves-not to complicated. My take is, if the woman feels she is in good health her milk should also be in relatively good condition. Hopefully as we become more aware of the issue we can begin testing individuals who breastfeed and decide whether the benefits outway the risk.
troubling post to be sure.

[ 27. January 2006, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: brentb ]

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treepatrol
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1.Why is Lyme so difficult to diagnose?
If you dont have a bullseye or notice a tick then it goes undiagnosed for a while. Which = Antibodies that are made are staying attached to the spirochete and unless your Dr understands that and hits you with high dose of abx for a week to free antigens then there not produced in western blot or 3 day urine test.


And so difficult to treat successfully?

Myriad of reasons 1. the longer you have it the better equipt the spirochete is at avoiding your immune system it learns by attacking immune system phagocytes and destroying them and incorperating your own protiens and dna particals into its own defence system.


2. When run of the mill abx's are used in the beginning without cyst buster abx's it just breaks into pieces and regenerates from them also cyst form is hard to penetrate, because normal abx cant work there is no cell wall.You need a abx like flagyl or similar to penetrate open walless cyst for another abx to get in.

[ 27. January 2006, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: treepatrol ]

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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GiGi
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We underestimate the intelligence of the microbes. That was the essence of my first post. They strive for survival just as we do and find a way to do just that, just as you describe, Tree.

As for cyst busters, Flagyl and Tinidazole, as per Dr. K's comments at the recent seminar, are disappointing - that is his experience. In fact, I remember way back when in 2000-2001, when he discussed the Abstract by Dr. H. NY and Martin Atkinson Barr he pointed already the low number of effectiveness. I have the abstract and the whole website info from Atkinson Barr somewhere here. Many of you "oldies" must remember. Dr. K. uses a bit of Flagyl here and there, but it is not a major tool. It really never was for him, because not many patients tested positive for it with ART.

My point is and the point Dr. K. is desperately trying to make - we have to change our ways. Lyme Disease is not the last catastrophe to hit us. There are already others in the making. If you read and listen, it should become very clear.

We need to clean up our act. Each individual.
Stop buying the garbage, the plastics, the preservatives, the artifical colorings and flavorings, the teflon coated pots and pans, the vitamins containing carcinogenics. Demand! to get better products for you and your family.
The minute people stop buying the toxic products, effectively, not just giving lip service, the manufacturers and money barons will take notice.

Just look around, how "organics" are becoming available more and more.

We must quit throwing "away" ------ ask: throwing away - where?

Take care.

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GiGi
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Some more notes and recordings, some more thoughts from Dr. K. speaking at a seminar to medical professionals:

``The earth is going to be fine after we are gone - the earth is going to be absolutely fine - it is a wonderful stable organism that has a lot of self-regulation going on. One of the self-regulations is the bugs - to ameliorate what is happening. Against this backdrop when we bring it back to one doctor, one patient: what is it that we are supposed to do

My feeling is, one, we need to understand the backdrop against which we are operating. That things are going forward in an unbiolgocial unharmonious way with the earth that are not going to be sustainable, and we are all called to political activity in that way. If we are feeling that the human species should survive - that's not everybody's positon - my position is very life-affirmative - I want my child to grow up and have a wonderful nature still to go to that is healthy and oxygen to breath and rivers to swim in.

You can't just treat these patients over and over and just do your little thing. When you treat a patient, how important is it going to be to get this patient well against the backdrop of everybody else being sick. That brings up a bit the issue of antibiotics. The antibioticas are in general quicker, more radical to help the patient. But also the use of antibiotics is also entraining those species to resist antibiotics and having ill effects on everybody who is not treated. They are going to be more affected. Same with the vaccine issue. Mass Vaccine programs are good for the whole, but bad for the individuals that are actually developing autism as a result of it. There is always going to be that conflict of what is good for one patient, may not be so good for the whole.

I am strongly convinced that the proper way of treating these illnesses is first of all to look at the ecosystem that have established themselves; there are ecosystems that have gone veering off the middle of life-affirmative normal. To change the ecosystem, you first of all need to pull out the toxins and you need to entrain the bugs to come back in a sort of balanced equilibrium with us in a symbiotic relationship with us. I do feel that the mediator - when the bugs are here and here is me - that the mediators to negotiate that is the plant adaptogen. It cannot be done with antibiotics or with man-made substances.
Man-made substances are always too simple and they are basically stupid in their nature, whereas plants that have developed their mechanism for billions of years, some of them for four billion years, are highly intelligent and are providing us with all the plant elements that are there to finetune the system.

I am fully aware that sometime in the treatment of Lyme Disease and associated illnesses, antibiotics are necessary. And yet I do urge of you to push the issue of using herbs as an intelligent way as far as you can put it before you pull our the prescription pad.

This experience has been extremely rewarding. I get patients now from all over the world that have failed antibiotics treatment and I am absolutely astounded how many of them are responding to well designed herbal programs with really achieving really really good sustainable levels of health with that. So - for the individual patient that you want to save, the route going with antibiotics is a very good way to go initially and about 30-40% are going to fail that, but it still leaves a good margin of people that are going to succeed.

For the evolution of the planet and for the evolution of consciousness, you are not doing much of a favor in that way.

So with all this said, I just want to go over the principles: The first step in our work is that we clean up the person's environment. '' (con't)

Take care.

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Anneke
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Firstly, THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR POSTS GIGI!! Since getting my diagnosis, I have benefitted a TON from reading what I can here.

Gigi, have you written your whole treatment story in full form somewhere that I can read? Are there any places where you have discussed detox in particular, and what worked for you?

I am currently being treated by a wonderful Lyme lit. dr. who is extremely bright, and has at least 15 years experience now. She incorporates some complimentary nutritional medicine, but we have not broached detox.

Recently, I started seeing a dr. in addition to her who does a LOT of aternative practices - he has done tons of muscle testing with me using these little rows of viles. Treatment thus far has consisted of a few supplements, and my first "laser treatment". Basically, a gun like laser is held so many feet from me with a remedy vile placed in it somewhere. Laser flashes are sent to feet, hands and head.

I know this dr. is a follower of Kling. Have you heard of this method of treatment? Would you recommend seeing K. if you were in my shoes - (2 and a half of IV antibiotics with almost immediate relapse upon stopping)?

Thanks Gigi. I appreciate your time. I never in my wildest dreams would have thought I would let someone, let alone PAY someone to do a laser gun "treatment" on me...

Anneke

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5dana8
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Cave76

I think lyme is a cruel disease in that it is so complicated and at the same time,for some of us makes our minds too feeble to understand the complex nature of navigating a cure for this beast.

I do appreciate all the big thinkers but also those who take the time to make it understandable for those of us who are fooged in.

Not sure this has been your intention as a sorta of translator,but it has not gone unnoticed

Eternal thanks and graditude

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5dana8

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JimBoB
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Going along with GiGi's original post and about the whole world being out of balance now, which it IS; I am wondering just HOW MANY people in this country, IF tested with the Bowen or Ingenex, would test positive for Lyme Disease?

And, IF some people who had died many years ago, before Lyme was even acknowledged, would test positive for this disease. Has anyones blood been saved from say, 50 or more years ago, to have it tested? Especially here in the Midwest OR the Northeast!?!?!?!?!

JIM [Cool]

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GiGi
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Cave, there are many of us that would rather not hear what we should hear and rather not listen or read what we should listen to or read. We have a wonderful built-in mechanism - the only other animal I know that does that sort of thing - is the ostrich who sticks its head into the sand for whatever reason - avoiding danger.
In German, it is called "ostrich politics".

We as human beings are masters at this.

My mother, who was a very wise woman, used to say
(in German, because that's what we spoke): "Wer nicht hoeren will, muss fuehlen." It means "who soever does not want to listen, will be feeling it".

We avoid, sidestep, go around it and find numerous ways to get sidetracked from the most important things in our life at a certain time.

This disease is not that terribly, terribly complicated. (your words: "just offer a bit of insight as to just how terribly, terribly complicated these TBIs are.")

At this point there are just many, many more of "them" than of "us"; "them" are just as intelligent as "us" and right now they are winning the war big time. The war we started.

Do we want to change or do we want to play ostrich?

Take care.

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Mo
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We want to change!

..addressing these multiple levels of burden have helped me and my children immensely..

as much as any other protocol - if not more.

The effects are profound and offer sustained healing.

Those of us suffering from severe illness/symptoms from Lyme have much more than Bb and other TBD's to contend with.

Mo

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treepatrol
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sorry posted a update and it went into this thread by mistake

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Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.

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