Topic: Anybody use the CD-57 as a Lyme "screening" test?
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
According to Dr. B. in his 2005 guidelines.....
quote:
THE CD-57 TEST Our ability to measure CD-57 counts represents a breakthrough in LB diagnosis and treatment.
Chronic LB infections are known to suppress the immune system and can decrease the quantity of the CD-57 subset of the natural killer cells. As in HIV infection, where abnormally low T-cell counts are routinely used as a marker of how active that infection is, in LB we can use the degree of decrease of the CD-57 count to indicate how active the Lyme infection is and whether, after treatment ends, a relapse is likely to occur. It can even be used as a simple, inexpensive screening test, because at this point we believe that only Borrelia will depress the CD-57. Thus, a sick patient with a high CD-57 is probably ill with something other than Lyme, such as a co-infection.
When this test is run by LabCorp (the currently preferred lab, as published studies were based on their assays), we want our Lyme patients to measure above 60; a normal count is above 200. There generally is some degree of fluctuation of this count over time, and the number does not progressively increase as treatment proceeds. Instead, it remains low until the LB infection is controlled, and then it will jump. If the CD- 57 count is not in the normal range when a course of antibiotics is ended, then a relapse will almost certainly occur.
quote:
For those of us in remote areas that have no access to an LLMD, and our ducks don't want to test us for Lyme.... would this be a reasonable alternative test to ask our ducks for? LabCorp is commonly used by doctors in this area.
Tracy
[ 13. April 2006, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Truthfinder ]
Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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SForsgren
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See the notes from Hope to Heal Lyme on my web site on the Protocols page. They CD57 is talked about there a good bit.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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valymemom
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I love using the search! I now go to it frequently to gather info before I post. You can spend days noting advice and in depth conversation about so many topics.
Have fun with it!
Posts: 1240 | From Centreville,VA | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Hello, I did a search for CD57 on this board and many of the discussions do not adequately address the question that I believe Truthfinder is posing. There are numerous discussions on using the CD57 for diagnosis along with other Lyme tests and on using the CD57 for tracking treatment progress.
The question (even if it has been asked here before) is whether a low CD57 should be used as a sole indicator for Lyme if you can't get any other tests done.
I think it would be a good place to start. If you can get your local doc to do it, and then it comes back low, he may be more willing to run a Lyme test from IGenex.
Take care, Ms. Myo
-------------------- Posts: 122 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
I think Dr. S, at the symposium in Maryland said that the CD57 is also a marker for toxicity. Also, I thought I heard Dr. B, at Hope to Heal mention that the C4 test might also be a marker for lyme, maybe even a better one. Scott, do you remember what he said exactly?
Posts: 422 | From Herndon, Virginia | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I just wanted to clarify my earlier post. You could get the CD57 test, and if it was low, try to use that to your advantage to get further testing from a not-so-agreeable doc. I think the number by itself, whether high or low, isn't the clearest indicator of whether you have Lyme. It's just one piece of this crazy puzzle.
Of course, nothing beats going to a LLMD who really knows what they are doing, but they can be a rare breed in some places!
Take care, Ms. Myo
-------------------- Posts: 122 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
It may be different with everyone else's insurance, but my CD57 is done through LabCorp, which my insurance pays for. Sometimes patients, as well as doctors, are more willing to go through labs that insurance companies "approve" of than independent labs like Igenex that do not take insurance. Thus, a doctor might be more willing to do a CD57 than a Lyme test from Igenex.
Yes, the doctor would have to be educated on CD57 and Lyme, but that wouldn't be a bad thing. They would also have to educated on the value of labs like Igenex if a person was to go that route.
Also, if the CD57 came back out of the normal range, the doctor may be more inclined to further investigate because here is some documentable evidence that something unusual is going on.
Of course, this is all hypothetical. When I go to doctors, I stop trying to guess what they are going to do because ducks never fail to surprise me.
Take care, Ms. Myo
-------------------- Posts: 122 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
my first test was 42 now its gone down to 32. My doctor feels that possibly part of the tests included also are related to things that made me subsceptable to endometriosis...and that she thought it was possible that some people are genetically predisposed to having fewer NK cells which makes them more likely to get very sick with lyme or endo,
though I'm tired and fuzzy right now so that might now be exactly what she said
we'll continue to monitor it
Posts: 207 | From san francisco, ca | Registered: Mar 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Cave, I did do a search of CD-57, and as Ms. Myo pointed out, I didn't find what I was looking for. Perhaps I did not go back far enough. Honest, I'm not trying to wear anybody out, and I do try to investigate my own questions before I post something.
Ms. Myo has precisely set forth many of my thoughts about this. Thanks for expressing my thoughts so well, Ms. Myo.......
Thanks Scott - I will check out your Hope to Heal notes on your website - been meaning to do that anyway.
Regarding the Igenex test, I know I can get my doc to order this test, at least for me. That is not the problem. The problem is that all it would take is for a couple of initial (probably false-) negative tests from Igenex, and the docs here will be even more convinced that we don't have a Lyme issue in this area. That's the last darned thing I want to happen.
Also, I'm convinced that finding Bb antibodies and/or the Bb organism (Bowen) in our blood doesn't tell as much of the story as I originally thought.
Some of the studies done in Europe indicate that only 10-15% of people with Bb in their blood are symptomatic or sick. I'm looking for a test that might help indicate what EFFECT the Bb are having on you. Also, I know I have Bb in my blood, but is it Lyme that is making me sick?
Well, I appreciate the replies, and I hope no one was unduly inconvenienced by having to re-post information. I'm trying to use what's left of my brain to bring awareness to docs and patients in my area in the best way I know how.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
CD 57...has been discussed before and is a NK cell marker...Natural killer cells.
These cells knock off precancerous cells at a rate of about 3 per day for all of us.
The NK cells are made in the Golgi apparatus and need a Mg dependent step and a Ca dependent step.
Now, unfortunately the #s of these cells go up and down...even in normal conditions.
They go down after exercise.
So we'd likely have to see a "pattern" of always high.
Here are some old files...not all the links still work, but you will have to trust me that they were a "cut and paste" from an internet search.
Antibody Dependent Killer (K) and Natural Killer (NK) cells (ASCC) kill by extracellular cytotoxicity by binding to a target cell and secreting cytolysins which unidirectionally kill the target cell. Once the target is bound by an NKAR and no NKIR is activated, the cytotoxic reaction occurs. The interaction of cell adhesion molecules between NK and the target cell may tighten the attachment.
The first step is a MAGNESIUM DEPENDENT movement of the cytoplasmix organelles (Golgi and granules) of the NK cell to face the target cell. The secretion of the granule contents into the intercellular space is a calcium dependent step that results in the preferential insertion of perforin pores into the target cell membrane.
1. Schlossman, S., L. Boumsell, W. Gilks, et. al., Eds. 1995. Leucocyte Typing V: White Cell Differentiation Antigens, Oxford University Press. New York. 2. McGarry, R.C., S.L. Helfand, R.H. Quales, et. al. 1983. Recognition of myelin-associated glycoprotein by the monoclonal antibody HNK-1. Nature 306: 376. 3. Abo, T., M.D. Cooper and C.M. Balch. 1982. Characterization of HNK-1+ (Leu-7) human lymphocytes. J. Immunol. 129: 1752. 4. D�Angeuc, A.D., S. Monier, D. Pilling, et. al. 1994. CD57+ T lymphocytes are derived from CD57-precursors by differentiation occurring in late immune responses. Eur. J. Immunol. 24: 1503. 5. Lanier, L.L., A.M. Le, J.H. Phillips, et. al. 1983. Subpopulations of human natural killer cells defined by expression of the Leu-7 (HNK-1) and Leu-11 (NK-15) antigens. J. Immunol. 131: 1789. 6. Mechtersheimer, G., M. Staudter, and P. Moller. 1991. Expression of the natural killer cell-associated antigens CD56 and CD57 in human neural and striated muscle cells and in their tumors. Cancer Res. 51: 1300. 7. Lipinski, M., K. Braham, J-M. Caillaud, et. al. 1983. HNK-1 antibody detects an antigen expressed on neuroectodermal cells. J. Exp. Med. 158: 1775. 8. Pinto, A., L. H. Grant, F. A. Hayes, et. al. 1989. Immunohistochemical expression of neuron-specific enolase and Leu-7 in Ewing's sarcoma of bone. Cancer (Phila) 64: 1266. 9. Jin, L., J.J. Hemperly, and R.V. Lloyd. 1991. Expression of neural cell-adhesion molecules in normal and neoplastic human neuroendocrine tissues. Am. J. Pathol. 138: 961. 10. Lanier, L.L., A.M. Le, C.I. Civin, et. al. 1986. The relationship of CD16 (Leu-11) and Leu-19 (HNK-1) antigen expression on human peripheral blood NK cells and cytotoxic T lymphocytes. J. Immunol. 136: 4480.
McNerlan SE, Rea IM, Alexander HD, Morris TCM.
Changes in natural killer cells, the CD57CD8 subset, and related cytokines in healthy aging. Journal of Clinical Immunology 1998; 18: 31-38.
More from disc #2:
� Natural killer (NK) cells are the body's first line of defense. These small lymphocytes attack antigens immediately, without waiting for the production of antibodies (which can take up to 10 days). � Neutrophils and macrophages, the "foot soldiers" of the immune system, travel to the site of invasion, injury, or inflammation, clearing the area so that repair can begin. Intense exercise may suppress NK cell activity for up to 24 hours. But nutrition can help keep your immune system strong.
Natural Killer Cells (NK, NK Cells) An important first line of defense against newly arising malignant cells and cells infected with viruses, bacteria, and protozoa. They form a distinct group of lymphocytes with no immunological memory and are independent of the adaptive immune system. Natural Killer Cells constitute 5 to 16% of the total lymphocyte population. Their specific function is to kill infected and cancerous cells.
NK-cell activity may also be secondary to garlic affecting the ***synthesis *** and release of natural killer cytotoxic factors (NKCF), including cytolysin.(91) These factors are released by NK cells to destroy cancer and virus-infected cells. The NKCF content of the NK cells in AIDS patients is markedly reduced and NKCF production in inhibited.
Mn prob. also? Mn will ``sub'' for Mg in a pinch and we now know Bb uses Mn to avoid destruction by H2O2 inside the cells.
Bb apparently uses other means also to avoid being destroyed by H2O2. Most pathogens are destroyed by H2O2 which we make all the time in our cells. Our cells can't STAY acidic, or they will die...so in steps catalase (enzyme) to break it down...in 1/400,000th of a second.
We make hydrogen (acids reacting with minerals/glycogen), it is released by vitamin E, it is carried into the cell by the enzyme, CoQ10 (needs B6), combines with oxygen -> H202, knocks off most pathogens (even some spore forms), broken down via catalase to H2O and O...process repeated over and over really fast every second of our lives.
Perhaps also a zinc connection? Used up fast to fight disease. Bound to calprotectin
Now...let's talk about a zinc-Bb connection...!
Who to believe? Read the following:
Clin Diagn Lab Immunol. 2005 Sep;12(9):1069-74.
A decline in C6 antibody titer occurs in successfully treated patients with culture-confirmed early localized or early disseminated Lyme Borreliosis.
Philipp MT, Wormser GP, Marques AR, Bittker S, Martin DS, Nowakowski J, Dally LG.
Department of Bacteriology and Parasitology, Tulane National Primate Research Center, Tulane University Health Sciences Center, Covington, LA 70433, USA. [email protected]
These results indicate that a decline in anti-C(6) antibody titer coincides with effective antimicrobial therapy in patients with early localized or early disseminated Lyme borreliosis.
Pre-treatment and post-treatment assessment of the C(6) test in patients with persistent symptoms and a history of Lyme borreliosis.
Fleming RV, Marques AR, Klempner MS, Schmid CH, Dally LG, Martin DS, Philipp MT.
Department of Medicine, Boston University Medical Center, 650 Albany Street, Room 620, Boston, MA 02118, USA.
� Antibodies to C(6) persisted in these patients with post-treatment Lyme disease syndrome following treatment, albeit at a markedly lower prevalence and titer than in untreated patients with acute disseminated Lyme disease. The results indicate that C(6) antibody cannot be used to assess treatment outcome or the presence of active infection in this population.
PMID: 15243815
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I just visited a new dr who did the vegf, msh, c4a, c3a, cd57 and others to get a clinical picture. All of those were drawn by LabCorp.
The only test that couldn't be done by LabCorp was the tularemia and that is being performed by quest (still covered).
Many reg doc and some llmd's are looking for a more overall view of lyme and other disease damage. When I was bit, I had an extensive medical history. I didn't just go from healthy to sick.
The idea that I would get abx treatment for lyme disease and be healthy is not rational.
My Igenex WB tests showed very little band activity, all the coinfections were positive.
This is my first cd57. My reg llmd doesn't order them. My pcp orders them on my children and husband along with other tests to use as a clinical picture of overall improvement. She will also be using the C4, C3, MSH, VGEF(?) in the future as markers.
-------------------- When I feel blue . . . . . . its time to take another breath Posts: 296 | From East Coast | Registered: Aug 2005
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Truthfinder
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Member # 8512
posted
Thanks for the additional information....
I followed most of the links and did a lot of reading. I have a better overview of the CD-57 test now.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I am going to ask my doctor for a CD-57 test, it would be good to monitor treatment but to be honest, I wouldn't rely just on this for a screening test.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Thanks, Chris.... your link is a duplicate article of what I read that Cave posted.... good info.
Like you, I think I might ask my doc for the CD-57 test. I would just like to know where my numbers are, for my own information.
It seems important to use LabCorp for the tests, for purposes of interpretation. Do you have LabCorp in the UK?
I'm still pondering the question of recommending this test to other "potential Lymies".....
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Ahh, so I guess this is another test that varies from lab to lab? In that case, I will ask my LLMD.
Chris.
Posts: 263 | From UK | Registered: Mar 2006
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Truthfinder
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posted
That's my understanding of it, Chris, at least in the US. I'm sure there are LLMDs that can interprest tests from other labs, even though the reference ranges are different, etc.
You have a good LLMD. He will probably have some ideas.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Truthfinder
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posted
Ha, ha - how much are you selling your NK cells for? Any warranty or are they sold ``as is''?
Yep, me too Cave - I want as much of the story as I can get.
I expect my numbers to be low. If they are not, then I'm an ``oddity'' like you and your ex, OR there is a strong possibility of a co-existing bug/infection that needs detection and treatment.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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