posted
Is it possible for your own immune system to naturally fight off Lyme when you first get infected (without taking any antibiotics or medication)?
Posts: 27 | From CA | Registered: May 2006
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luvs2ride
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Yes. I believe so. That is why some people test positive for lyme but are not sick.
Obviously none of our immune systems did it.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
YOU CANNOT GET RID OF LYME ON SHEER WILL POWER AS IT DID NOT WORK FOR ME....BUT YOU CAN KEEP IT AT BAY IF YOU DONT STRESS....YOU NEED ANTIBIOTICS OR YOU WILL BE DOOMED... ERIC
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
okay, i need some educating...what exactly is the immune system..i mean what is it made up of..and how do i know how mine is doing....i feel like it is some elusive-holy-ghost type thing.
I mean, I am suppose to make sure it is strong and not "compromised" but I can't even tell you where it is located....
Posts: 58 | From boston | Registered: Apr 2006
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kelmo
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posted
Your white blood cells are a major defense in fighting disease, as well as lymph glands However, Lyme and it's co-infections invade the white blood cells and cause the body to turn on itself. This is the autoimmune response.
My daughter came down with mycoplasma pneumonia (Bartonella may have invaded first, I don't know). At the same time, she endured a trauma. Stress itself lowers our ability to fight infection.
After that, the bacteria flourished. She is five months into treatment, and will be stepping up the meds.
The antibiotics break down the biofilm surrounding the bacteria and give your own immune system the path to attack the bacteria. Building your immune system and taking your antibiotics go hand in hand.
Rest, drink lots of water, exercise, even if it's sitting on the couch lifting a can of fruit.
With so many people sick with this, is this the drug resistent bacteria we have all feared?
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
My understanding is these bacteria find their way into the white blood cells, the very cells whose job it is to eradicate infection. AFAIK, the white blood cells can't/won't eradicate themselves, so the bacteria are hiding in a place safe from attack.
Since this gets around our natural defenses, I think it very unlikely someone can cure themselves of Lyme without calling in reinforcements (antibiotics).
The concept of immune system infection/attack is also found in AIDS, except in that case it seems to be a virus, and we don't yet have as many good weapons to kill virii. While the AIDS virus weakens the immune system, many people say Lyme does the opposite: it activates the system excessively, leading to the array of symptoms we experience.
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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klutzo
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posted
I will simplify this as much as possible, but it is not a simple thing. I hope it helps a bit.... I will abbreviate the immune system as IS from here on out.
NOTE: I am making an assumption here that I happeen to believe very strongly in presenting this info, ie. that CFS and FMS are almost always Lyme Disease. Some of the research to back up what I am going to say was done on CFS and FMS patients, so if you don't believe they are all the same illness, you may disagree...
Your IS is located in many places all over your body, as previous posters have mentioned. It has two sides, one you were born with, called TH1, and one you acquire as your IS faces challenges and develops antibodies, called TH2. (The initials stand for the types of T-Helper cells involved).
One reason allergy and asthma has increased so much is that we use anti-bacterials on ourselves and on every surface, and don't allow kids to get childhood diseases. Putting dirt in your mouth, getting the measles, etc. is how you develop the acquired side of your IS, which is called TH2.
Back to the subject (sorry). The two sides of the IS act like a see-saw, switching off as needed to kill the things they are supposed to handle. This is the breakdown:
Handled by the Th1 side of the IS: Viruses Yeasts and fungi Cancer Intra-cellular bacteria
Handled by the TH2 side of the IS: Toxins, chemicals Allergens Parasites Extra-cellular bacteria (normal infections)
Borrelia (the cause of Lyme Disease) is an intra-cellular bacteria, meaning it would normally be attacked by the Th1 side of the IS. It is a very old organism, and it has evolved to be able to lose it's cell wall, cloak itself in our cellular DNA, and convince our IS that it is really a TH2 organism.... smart little %$#@! Some people think our government "helped" it to evolve this way, but that is another post entirely!
The result of this is that the Th2 side of the IS is switched on all the time, fighting what it thinks is a Th2 pathogen, while Borrelia, which is really a Th1 pathogen, gets to ravage us, since when Th2 is turned on, Th1 is turned off.
This also causes us to be very susceptible to the other illnesses that would normally be handled by Th1, which is why we have major yeast problems, even if we are not on ABX (I sure do, and I only take herbs).
When you are exposed to viruses, the Th1 side of your IS normally beats them into submission and they go dormant. Viruses are not eliminated, just kept down to where they don't cause symptoms. When Th1 is switched off by Lyme, they can come out and play again, another problem in Lyme patients. This explains some of our symptom differences, since we don't all have the same dormant viruses that become reactivated.
The TH2 side of the IS is going full blast, and this causes many of us to develop allergies to everything, and chemical sensitivities. This is like auto-immunity, except it is just the one side of the IS that behaves in an auto-immune manner, while the other side is weaker than it should be.
You may have noticed on the list above that cancer is normally handled by TH1. The body has a fail-safe back-up for this when Th1 is turned off, called the RNase-L enzyme. It is only meant to be used for short periods, however, and when Th1 is turned off for a long time, it must switch to a different mode, which unfortunately produces massive amounts of free radicals. This is one reason why we need supplements.
Eventually RNase-L runs out, and the cancer rate in long-term untreated patients is 3 times higher than in the general population. Some cancers are especially high, in order of prevelance: CA of the thyroid, non-Hodgkins lymphoma, myoglioblastoma, Burkett's lymphoma, and cancer of the salivary glands.
All the more reason to treat Lyme Disease agressively. I hope this is not too confusing.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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kelmo
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posted
Klutzo...THAT WAS FANTASTIC Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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Thanks for alll that info-I printed it out and will absorb it in small doses.
But, I still want to say "But what does it look like? Is it purple..is it mushy...can I take it out to dinner and convince it to help me with the lymes...or should I hold it and squeeze it and call it George"...LOL
Sorry, but I just feel like I have no control over this thing - my immune system - I just can't get my hands or my head around it..and as Cave says there is no way to test it.
At this point, I am not even sure if my immune system is on my side.
Posts: 58 | From boston | Registered: Apr 2006
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klutzo
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Kelmo, I am glad it was clear enough to understand. I drank a cup of coffee today....it really helps me with brain fog. Yes, I know it's awful.
Sshhh... Don't tell my doctor! I have cardiac damage, and he has forbidden me to drink the stuff.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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klutzo
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posted
badtick33, Your IS looks sort of like a bunch of small bulb flower roots all connected by strings (the lymph system), assisted by a whole bunch of different sized Pac-men that race around like SWAT teams (the natural killer, T and B cells and macrophages). Does that help you visualize it?
You can call it "George" if you want. In fact, I think talking to it is a very good idea. Visualize those Pac Men winning the fight against the bad guys. "George" can be the General in charge of deploying troops, and you can say things like "good job George, keep it up".
There is a book along those lines called "Your Body Belives Every Word You Say". I don't think positive talk alone will cure Lyme, but it can't hurt.
You can Google "Paul M. Cheney, M. D. " plus "immune system", and maybe his explanation will be clearer than mine. It is likely to be more technical, however. I tried to keep big words to a minimum.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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luvs2ride
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posted
I absolutely agree with everyone that your immune system can't eliminate lyme from your body and that any event that suppresses your immune system will likely bring the lyme to life.
But the question posed was not "cure" lyme, it was "is it possible to fight off lyme".
Dr K himself states that many people have the Bb bacteria who are not exhibiting any illness or symptoms of lyme disease. He does not consider you to have lyme disease until you become sick.
So the answer to the question is "yes".
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by klutzo: Borrelia (the cause of Lyme Disease) is an intra-cellular bacteria, meaning it would normally be attacked by the Th1 side of the IS. It is a very old organism, and it has evolved to be able to lose it's cell wall, cloak itself in our cellular DNA, and convince our IS that it is really a TH2 organism....
Do you have any links to support the quote? I've not seen anything to document this Th2 fakeout for bacteria like Lyme. In fact, I've seen mostly the opposite: that instead the Th1 system becomes chronically overactivated.
says "When the resting cell is exposed to ... intracellular bacteria (like mycoplasma or chlamydia pneumonia), the Th1 response is initiated."
This same article also talks about a possible Th1 to Th2 fakeout, but only in the context of viral pathogens, not bacteria like Lyme.
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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liz28
Unregistered
posted
To add a very simple, low-key two cents, I agree there is no way you will evade Lyme forever. Some of the worst, most tenacious relapses you read about on this board struck when people were at their healthiest and most physically active. There are people who used to race in triathlons, climb mountains, bicycle the world, ice skate competitively, body build, run marathons. Sometimes they are the people who end up the sickest with Lyme. It's the roll of the dice.
There is debate over whether you are better off taking the strongest antibiotics at once, even though they have the greatest potential for side effects, or whether you should try the weaker antibiotics first, in case those work for you. So before you wade into the antibiotic debate, it's wise to read as much as you can.
Also, go back a couple of years through the Lymenet archive, because you will get to read which antibiotics turned around which hopeless cases, and what caused people to remain sick even after their treatment protocols got stronger.
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Of the 29 research results found, roughly 20 expressed an opinion of whether the primary immune system reaction was from the Th1 or Th2 branch. Of those 20 results, 18 found Lyme was associated with Th1 expression.
The only 2 that differed reported a Th2 response was generated when the infection was introduced extra-cellularly. Since for us the infection appeats to be intra-cellular, these two outlier studies are not pertinent.
So, the bulk of the research says Lyme produces overactivation of Th1 rather than Th2.
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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klutzo
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To those who asked,
Please re-read my post.... I expressly said that I believe CFS and FMS are Lyme. If you agree with that, then you can find Dr. Cheney, Dr. Hyde, and others by Googling to back up what I said. Dr. Cheney is one of the top CFS doctors in the world.
If you don't agree, then you can cast your lot with Trevor Marshall and the others, and disagree with me. I did say that right off the bat.
I cannot even print what I think of T.M. I am biased and I admit it. I know what he did before re: his fraud conviction, and I know how people on his web site lie about lab results, from personal experience. Then there is the fact he is an engineer practicing medicine over the Internet.....I'd better drop this subject before I have a Lyme rage!
I do greatly respect Dr. K, and I know he thinks Lyme switches from Th2 to Th1 dominance as it goes along. I have been sick for 21 yrs. and this has not happened yet. I've only had tx for 3 yrs. and only herbs.
The things that the two sides of the IS handle are not being fought about by anyone, so if you have a ton of allergies and chemical sensitivities that you did not have before Lyme, how can your Th2 side be turned off? On the contrary, is is turned on too much.
Please see the 25 year retrospective by Dr. Byron Hyde for info to back me up about the cancers. You'll have to Google him and CFS to find it....I did not save the URL.
However, if you see Lyme as seperate from CFS and FMS, then much of the research does not apply. I am not aware of anything I would count as science (ie. anything not done by TM) that shows Th1 dominance in Lyme. I will read your links right now though....thank you.
However, if Lyme is a TH1 dominant disease, then I may not even have it. I guess my EM rash was a fluke, my 2 positive tests were wrong, and my strong herxing is a coincidence, because I am VERY Th2 dominant, to the point where the allergies have almost killed me many times, and the chemical problems have kept me from going in new places or buying new things.
There are some people in the middle, who say that the two sides of the IS are dysregulated, and the wrong side is reacting to the wrong pathogen, etc. That might explain the divergence of opinion on this, though I have seen no proof of this yet.
As far as beating Lyme on your own, my holistic doctor thinks you must, and that ultimately, it is the ONLY way, because 15% of the Bb's will always mutate and become stronger, no matter what you throw at them, so you can never stop ABX, or the illness comes back even worse. He believes terrain is everything, and that terrain explains why some people can be exposed to Borrelia, or any other pathogen, and not get sick, while others get very sick.
I see part of his point, about the mutations, but do not agree completely. Like many of you, I was eating healtheir than most people, and running every night when I got sick.
There may be a genetic predisposition to not being able to adapt to stressors, which may allow opportunistic infection when stressors pass a certain threshold. (This is CFS research again).
There definately is a genetic predisposition to not being able to clear toxins which could contribute. (Google ApoE genotyping for more info).
None of this is cut in stone, unfortunately.
Regards to all,
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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kelmo
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Okay...I really have to print this out..it's blowing my mind. Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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klutzo
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posted
Hi dguy, The first link you provided in the second paragraph says that CFIDS patients are TH2 activated. It is the very speech by Dr. Cheney I was referring to! (See below for exact wording)
I guess we could argue about this all day, but I think we should all just admit that it is all theory, though very interesting stuff.
Peace,
Klutzo
P.S. Here is the copied and pasted quote: "CFIDS patients are Th2 activated. This means they over-respond to toxins, allergens, normal bacteria and parasites, and under-respond to viruses, yeast, cancer and intracellular bacteria. Dr. Cheney suggests six products that can help rebalance the immune system."
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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posted
klutzo - Yes, that Dr. Cheney article is primarily about CFIDS, and Lyme is mentioned only peripherally. IMO, you may be using too broad an interpretation of that article if you believe it is describing Lyme.
Based on what you write, your symptoms may be a better match for CFIDS than Lyme. Do you know via some other test you have Lyme? 90% of those reports in the NIH PubMed database associate a Th1 response with Lyme, not Th2. Consequently, anyone who feels the opposite is true (i.e. that it's too much Th2) is going against the bulk of research.
Of course, sometimes the radical ideas are correct, or lead to refinements. However, a symptom like joint pain from Lyme was associated with a Th1 response in *all* the PubMed reports.
One thing I noticed among the reports is that a Th2 response could occur if the Lyme bacteria was extracellular rather than intracellular.
Perhaps these bacteria can infect people in different ways, so that in your case perhaps it has remained extracellular. However, that goes against your earlier assertion that it's an intracellular infection.
I don't know if the distinction is terribly important since I think regardless of whether it's Th1 or Th2, antibiotics are considered the best treatment option. The only thing a Th1/Th2 distinction may provide is to suggest possible adjunctive therapy.
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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kelmo
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I'm in agreement that someone posted that CFIDS and FMS are Lyme caused. At least Bartonella caused.
So....it is still in the same family.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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Marnie
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posted
These immune responses can balance one another, as Th2 mediators suppress Th1 responses and Th1 mediators similarly inhibit Th2 responses.
The failure of these approaches to treating asthma provides support for the assumption that the Th1-Th2 balance is controlled in a complex manner that cannot be altered by regulating individual components (e.g., a single Th1 or Th2 cytokine) of it.
Moreover, recent data show that there is at least a
third set of regulatory cytokines,
produced by the T-regulatory cells, that is neither Th1 nor Th2 but controls both of these responses.
Thus, the use of agents that suppress T-cell-mediated immune responses to allergens but do not globally impair immunity may be a more effective way of modulating asthmatic inflammation."
(This promotes steroid use, not Mg, to treat asthma. But what do parametics give patients in status asthmaticus (about to die 'cause they can't breathe)? IV Mg.
Mg is THE known anti-inflammatory. DUH.
Like all T cells, Th cells arise in the thymus.
(The thymus gland functioning is dependent on zinc...so is Bb)
Lyme disease primarily follows the TH1 pathway. Too much TNF alpha is produced which can harm the eyes. Thus vitamin A to the "rescue". One acid to counter, lower, another.
There are many things that can suppress the immune system:
"It is well-known that anesthesia and surgery induce temporary suppression of cell-mediated immunity, resulting in secondary immunodeficiency."
Opioids ie. the narcotics.
These results indicate that TETs are not able to act directly on the synthesis of these cytokines, but they may modulate other pathways that could in turn be responsible for the inhibition of IL-1 alpha and TNF-alpha synthesis.
The reasons WHY TNF alpha is overabundant are many:
Benefits of TNF alpha: 1. ``as more people are treated with TNF inhibitors over longer periods of time, tumor risk may become more pronounced.'' (May protect us from tumors.)
3. ``one mechanism of action of TNF-alpha ...on thyroid FRTL-5 cells is to inhibit calcium entry.''
PMID: 10092616
4. ``is actually a potent modulator of neurotransmitter interaction.''
hdlighthouse.org/see/immune/tnf.htm
5. ``the body does use tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-alpha) to acutely fight infections. If patients are showing any sign of infectious disease, drugs such as Enbrel (that inhibit the effects of TNF-alpha) are temporarily discontinued.''
7. ``generally the level of TNF increases with aging. Lactic acid and unsaturated fats and hypoxia stimulate increased formation of TNF. Estrogen increases production of nitric oxide systemically, and nitric oxide can stimulate TNF formation. When oxygen and the correct nutrients are available, the hypermetabolism produced by TNF could be reparative (K. Fukushima, et al., 1999), rather than destructive.''
8. ``TNF-a is a molecule responsible for activating and proliferating cells of the immune system as well as protecting the body from abnormal cell growth.''
(same source as #7)
9. ``Activity of TNF-a is associated with inflammation, cytotoxicity (destruction of abnormal cells) antiviral activity, and the proliferation of immune cells.''
(same source as #7)
10. ``modulate cell proliferation and cellular calcium homeostasis.''
(If you go to the above website, please note the mention of spingolipid metabolites and keep this in mind: syhingomyelinase is Mg dependent)
PMID: 9195931
11. ``the level of TNF-alpha directly or indirectly regulates the production of borreliacidal antibody''
PMID: 12522038
12. ``The increased bone resorption may be due to an increase in TNF-alpha''
PMID: 14704297
13. ``no detrimental effects on normal neurons and can protect neurons when present in neuronal cultures during in vitro ischaemia...Once TNF's removed, neuroprotection is lost.''
14. ``TNF- a also causes production of sphingosine which can directly block the release of calcium from the sarcoplasmic reticulum and therefore depress cardiac contraction.''
15. ``suppression of insulin action in the liver resulting from TNF-alpha mediated suppression of tyrosine phosphorylation''
Gastroenterology 2004; 126: 840-848,917-919
(Keep in mind insulin ACTIVATES PFK which Bb is dependent on.)
16. ``Total elimination of the TNF-a cytokine apparently creates a less hostile immune environment...Although `Chronic-lyme' is a lympopenic disease, chronic lyme patients do not usually form sarcoid granuloma.
Borrelia burgdorferi appears to be a pathogen with insufficient lympopenic activity to proliferate sarcoid granulomas on its own. However, together with other pathogens, it is frequently found as a component of sarcoid inflammation.''
17. ``the level of TNF-alpha directly or indirectly regulates the production of borreliacidal antibody''
PMID: 12522038
18. ``Polymerase chain reaction analysis indicated a protection rate of 95% in mice receiving tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha.''
PMID: 8537658
19. These results are in line with previous experiments using cells of the adaptive immune response, indicating that strong T helper type 1 (Th1) proinflammatory responses might be associated with a
successful resolution
of Lyme disease.
PMID: 15958074
What is the underlying CAUSE of the increase in TNF-alpha?
1. "CONCLUSIONS: These data demonstrate a relationship between angiotensin II and intracellular magnesium and calcium. In hypertension, angiotensin II-stimulated calcium responses may be related to simultaneously decreased intracellular magnesium concentrations."
PMID: 8390527
2. ``In severely Mg deficient rodents, it was found that there were greatly increased plasma concentrations of inflammatory cytokines.'' www.mgwater.com/clmd.shtml
3. ``Severe Mg deficiency changed mineral homeostasis, induced membrane damage, increased lipid peroxidation and cytokine concentrations and reduced immunocompetence.'' PMID: 9558736
4. ``During the progression of Mg deficiency in a rodent model, we have observed dramatic increases in serum level of inflammatory cytokines.'' PMID: 1384353
5. ``Bone loss induced by dietary magnesium reduction to 10% of the nutrient requirements in rats is associated with increased release of supstance P and tumor necrosis factor-alpha.'' J Nutr. 2004 Jan;134(1): 79-85
6. ``Visual defects are common in surviving preterm infants. Increased levels of harmful neurochemical mediators that have been reported in these conditions include oxygen free radicals, excitatory amino acids, tumor necrosis factor-alpha (TNF-a) and in thromboxane A2 (TXA2) which are aggravated in magnesium deficiency and may be ameliorated by magnesium.'' http://www.barttersite.com/mgpreemies.htm (Ameliorated means to make better, improve.)
7. ``An increased production of nitric oxide and of various inflammatory peptides - such as substance P, CGRP, and VIP - is observed in Mg-deficient rats.'' http://www.mgwater.com/dur30.shtml
8. ``Magnesium (Mg) plays an essential role in fundamental cellular reactions and the importance of the immuno-inflammatory processes in the pathology of Mg deficiency...A significant increase in TNF alpha plasma level was observed in Mg-deficient rats compared to rats fed the control diet.'' PMID: 9989243
9. ``Patients with multiple EM lesions had greater symptom scores and higher serum levels of IFN-alpha, TNF-alpha and IL2 than patients with solitary EM. PMID: 12928420
It is quite amazing how fast our body recognizes what needs to be done given the fact that this is a unique bacteria...one that has Zn+cholesterol in its outer cell wall. These nutrients are not "foreign" to us. Yet, our body senses something is wrong and dumps Mg (from Mg-ATP) sending Mg into the bloodstream to remove zinc, to INactivate PFK (shutting down the glycolsis pathway) and INactivating HMG CoA reductase, shutting down cholesterol production in the liver.
We just didn't have enough to counter the acidic cholesterol in the pathogens cell wall and to remove enough zinc very quickly.
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