Topic: Progesterone or Estrogen- THAT is the question
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
A member here just jogged my memory and I remembered something that MIGHT be of help when trying to figure out hormones.
For several years MANY MANY docs kept pushing estrogen on me.. in any and every form.. INSISTING it was what I needed. Well.. many many times I told them...
IT MAKES ME SICK AS A DOG!
But nooooooooooo.... the ducks would NOT listen and would NOT accept that! They tried slipping it into my milkshakes.. ordering all the latest drugs for it for me to take.. making me try this kind and that.. and all the high dollar fancy stuff.
I was too stupid to know better... and too sick to argue much.. and too desperate at the time... so I did what I was told.
Anyhow.. the blood tests for determining the need for estrogen or progestrone seem to be quite horrible for me and others and don't report accurately what is going on.. from what I have observed. For example... they showed I was "normal".
Youuuuuuuuuu whooooooooooooooooo....
Anyone who knows me can certainly swear to the fact... THAT JUST AIN'T SO! I've NEVER been "normal". HA!
Anyhow.. in my search to figure out how to help myself cause the ducks were only making me worse...
I got a product.. I believe it was by a company called "Herbs, Etc."?? It was in a tiny brown bottle with a yellow label. It was a 2 part treatment.
One bottle you took the drops from was for estrogen supplementation.. and one was for progestrone replacement. I believe the instructions were to take 2 weeks of one.. then 2 weeks of the other to help balance the hormone levels.
I noticed after a couple of months that the two weeks I was on the estrogen one.. I was AWFUL! The two weeks on the progesterone one.. I was better!
It didn't take two or three months to notice it.. I felt it right away... however..
I was just too dumb to put it all together and accept the fact that one was horrible so I could stop taking the one making me sick. I was TRYING to follow the instructions after all.
Anyhow.. once the branch fell off the tree and hit me in the head.. I realized I MUST need progestrone. Duh!
I was right. I was soooooooooooo deficient in progesterone I ended up on BIG doses of it.. and I FINALLY started feeling human again.
So.. lessons learned.
#1. Don't let people insist you need something if it is making you feel bad. Your body says different. Listen to your body!
#2. If a duck insists you stay on something that is making you worse.. tell them to fly south for the winter. Have them report straight to the alligator pit.
#3. If unsure about your hormone needs and you are having MAJOR problems.. go to a doctor. If the doctor is stupid.. go to another. If all your attempts fail.. consider (the over the counter in the health food store), Herb's Etc. product if you think it may help determine what you might need? Follow directions on the label... and REMEMBER...
I am NOT advising anyone to do this.. it is simply what I found that helped me after being ducked amungo for years!
I am not a doctor.. but I DO know Lymetutu who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once!
PS... You may also need to review the basic literature concerning estrogen and progestrone before proceding on your own.
For example- you may need to know HOW to make a hormone.
I was just posting on another thread about a supplement called Pregnenolone that I am taking --as I understand it, it is a precursor to DHEA in the body, and therefore helps balance out the sex-steroids as well. One can also get DHEA supplements directly, but the possible side effects scared me away from that.
I'm not sure exactly what the Pregnenlone is doing chemically, but I DO know that I feel a lot better when I take it. If I forget to take it for a while, I feel worse.
I, too, am NOT a doctor, nor have I ever stayed at the Holiday Inn Express, though I've driven by one... does that count?
-------------------- "Looks like freedom but it feels like death.. It's something in between, I guess"
Leonard Cohen, from the song "Closing Time" Posts: 822 | From California | Registered: Jan 2006
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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trails
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Member # 1620
posted
thanks tincup!
After having one ovary removed, my other ovary seems to be NOT working (I like to think it is as stubborn as I am about getting disability) and I found myself smack dab in the middle of surgical menopause at age 34.
I have taken prometrium (micronized "bio-identical" progesterone) for two days and have begun to stabilize. I took 100mg the first night and barely noticed anything and then 200mg last night and I am feeling quite a bit better.
Too soon to tell, but seems like this might do the trick for me.
Contra-indications !!!!!! It says do not take Rifampin if you are taking Prometrium.
Posts: 1950 | From New Mexico | Registered: Sep 2001
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trails
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1620
posted
oh and here is something you wrote a long time ago tincup about this and it has a link to some research on how progesterone heavy mice had less lyme arthitis.
For myself, my estradiol levels were low, I had estrogen deficiency symptoms, AND supplemental estradiol is one of the most useful products I have used for my burning brain. Without estradiol I would practically be disabled!
Progesterone makes me worse, in all regards.
Posts: 211 | From NC | Registered: Dec 2005
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Jellybelly
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Member # 7142
posted
About 4 years ago I had my first fibroid tumor. Had to have it removed. Later I got a notice about a seminar that was being held at the hospital on fibroids, so I went.
Boy, was I shocked at what came out of this seminar sponsered by a hospital.
First of off, fibroids are estrogen induced. There is also an element of hypercoagulation in there, we'll leave that for another discussion.
Back to estrogen, they recommended very strongly avoiding those fluid containers that you get at the store that contain water and milk. You know the soft clloudy plastic jugs. I knew they weren't good for us, but didn't now exactly why, but it is because they use estrogen to make the plastic soft. The same thing that makes cartilage soft when if comes time to shoving them babies out the pelvis. Soft cartilage, soft plastic.
Also, and this was the real kicker, they recommended a trip to the health food store. They reocmmened a cream called Progest, it is a progesterone cream, natural.
Progesterone counters excess estrogen so that fibroids can't form as easily.
The results for me, have been no new fibroids in 4 years AND, this which I think is amazing, you know that fat hump on our backs we ladies get as we approach the BIG M? Well that is estrogen related too. One of the last areas that produce estrogen and it gets bigger as estrogen levels start dropping in other areas.
Well, since starting the estrogen cream, my fat hump on my back has gone away, thankfully. I actually lost some inches around there.
All of this info from the hospital, amazing!
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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ConnieMc
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Member # 191
posted
I am doing a saliva test today to measure all hormones. I read a book called "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause" by John Lee MD. He also wrote "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Breast Cancer". I am post-breast cancer and have had a horrible quality of life following the discontinuation of HRT.
My docs told me to d/c HRT right away and it sent me into a tailspin. I have not had a good night's sleep since January. Horrible flashes, sweats 24 hours a day, sometimes I have flashes so bad I throw up. Lots of other symptoms too - fatigue, memory loss, weight gain around the middle, and more and more.
Dr. Lee says that the bioidentical hormones balance out a woman's system and actually prevent breast cancer.
He coined the term estrogen dominance. I was on BC pills for years, then went to HRT. I now understand that oral hormones prescribed by the traditional medical community are from horse urine. Lovely.
The key is to balance them correctly, under the supervision of a good doc.
I also remember where Suzanne Somers (Three's Company) had breast cancer and did this, and has done well with it.
My oncologist will be livid, as she said no hormones. Think for now I will keep this from her. Traditional medicine just doesn't get it. If quality of life is so adversely affected by hormone imbalances, I would rather take the chance.
Will let you folks know how it goes.
Posts: 2275 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2000
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ConnieMc
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Member # 191
posted
Also, one other thing I found very interesting ... there are good and bad kinds of estrogen, just like cholesterol.
Estrone, estradial, and estriol. The third one listed is the good kind.
Posts: 2275 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2000
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trails
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1620
posted
for connie and others---
I found the following site to be one of the most concise and useful for ME. Even though it is about surgical menopause it has good concise info about hormones and seems well balanced. For instance they do write about Dr Lee and praise him for some things and also say some of his theories or guidelines are not useful for them.
Marnie
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Member # 773
posted
Quick search...all cut and pasted without links:
Indole= alkaloid
Indole-3-Carbinol is a dervative of brussel sprouts, cabbage, and cauliflower. Indole-3-Carbinol gives your body the raw material to INactivate estradiol.
Natural Progesterone opposes estrogen.
Estrogen tells the cells to reproduce and proliferate. Natural Progesterone tells the cells to stop reproducing and grow up and mature.
While estrogen protects against osteoporosis by preventing the loss of bone, progesterone can actually reverse the process by increasing bone density.
Further, women lose bone very rapidly the first few years after menopause. For a long while, it was thought that a decrease in estrogen was the cause. However, it now appears that the etiology is more complex and involves decreased progesterone levels as well as stress and faulty eating habits. (Estrogen inhibits calcium resorption while progesterone participates in bone building.)
Our results provide evidence that progesterone is a vasoactive hormone, inhibiting agonist-induced vasoconstriction. The data further suggest that progesterone effects on vascular tissue may, at least in part, be mediated by modulation of the L-type calcium channel current activity and, consequently, of cytosolic-free calcium content.
Dr Prior continued her research with non-athletic women, and they showed the same results. While both these groups of women were menstruating they had anovulatory (not ovulating) cycles and were thus deficient in progesterone. As a result of her extensive research, she confirmed that it is not oestrogen but progesterone which is the key bone-building hormone.
Estrogen induces progesterone synthesis in the adult hypothalamus. The pre-ovulatory increase of progesterone levels have been shown to be critical for the initiation of the LH surge. Chaban et al. have demonstrated that in astrocytes
estrogen rapidly increases intracellular calcium levels through a membrane associated estrogen receptor that activates IP3 receptor-mediated calcium release.
Fura-2 was used to measure intracellular calcium levels ([Ca2+]i) in isolated vascular smooth muscle cells (VSMC). Incubation of cultured VSMC for 15 min with progesterone (10 �M) resulted in an inhibition of the KCl-induced [Ca2+]i increase.
Progesterone...interesting calcium channel blocker. Good find, TC!
Mg low...Ca goes up...triggers TNF alpha...
Estrogen/Progesterone...Insulin/glucagon...these proteins ``downregulate'' one another much the same as Mg/Ca and K/Na and Vitamin A/TNF alpha.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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kelmo
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Member # 8797
posted
Neither hormone is bad on it's own, but because of the estrogen fed to cattle and plastics, we are estrogen dominant. Progesterone is the first hormone to be used up in stress and illness. By the time we are 35, our bodies are pretty much depleted of progesterone.
I am an Arbonne consultant (don't throw rocks at me, I am not selling). But, Arbonne does sell two bio-identical creams that are in airtight pre-measured pumps. It depenses 20mg in one full pump, which is what your body would normally make in a day. We also have one that has a few more herbs that give you estrogen properties, if you need it.
If you are especially depleted, you can take more when you start out. For the woman taking 100-200mg daily, you may want to start working back a bit. Although, when you are pregnant, you are producing 400mg daily, so you really can't overdose on it.
It is true, that once the progesterone is brought up, the rest of the hormones tend to balance out. I really think it is unnecessary to go to a compound pharmacist and be checked every month. Depending on what you eat, your hormones can change hourly. So, it isn't always dependable.
I have been using Arbonne's formula for three years. My daughter, who has Bartonella has been using it for several years, as well. We can usually tell if she needs more progesterone and bump her up to two full pumps a day. Her hair will become really oily, she will be moody, and her face will break out.
If you want a code to buy at my cost, I would love to do that for you. But, again, I am not selling. All I would recommend is that you don't buy the creams in a jar at the health food store. By the time you get halfway, the progesterone has evaporated.
There are 300 plants that contain bio-identical progesterone. Arbonne does not use soy. I can send an ingredient list, and you can use that to make your choice of other products. I just feel this is the best on the market, but I'm sure others will work. I would rather see you use any good one than none at all.
Progesterone supports the nerve sheathe and is natural anti-inflammatory. I think it's the best thing anyone can do. Men even need 10mg daily to support their prostate.
Again, this is no different than Lymetoo and Mangosteen, I just have done a lot of research and teach classes, so I have the information to share.
Take care, Kelly
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tincup: I am not a doctor.. but I DO know Lymetutu who stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once!
You nutty conehead!!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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lymemomtooo
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Ok can I vote?..I drove past a Holiday Inn Express yesterday..
RE: {Anyone who knows me can certainly swear to the fact... THAT JUST AIN'T SO! I've NEVER been "normal". HA!)
Very good post..I will need to reread it a few times to get it all..Thanks...lymemomtooo
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janet thomas
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-------------------- I am not a doctor and this is not medical advice but only my personal experience and opinion. Posts: 2001 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2005
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Folks, please be careful with female hormone generalizations! There are no "good" and "bad" hormones, just hormones out of balance. If an author pushes one hormone over another (like Dr. Lee pushing progesterone, and demonizing estrogen), I suggest you look elsewhere for info!
Poison for one woman is a healing potion for another woman when it comes to hormones!
And not everyone thinks estriol is the "good" estrogen --- that's just one idea that got carried forward -- like the practical demonization of estrogen by the Dr.Lee's.
Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet (Women, Weight, and Hormones, Screaming to Be Heard) also gives a more balanced position on natural hormones than one-sided pro-progesterone doctors.
Posts: 211 | From NC | Registered: Dec 2005
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ConnieMc
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quote:Originally posted by mtnwoman: Folks, please be careful with female hormone generalizations! There are no "good" and "bad" hormones, just hormones out of balance. If an author pushes one hormone over another (like Dr. Lee pushing progesterone, and demonizing estrogen), I suggest you look elsewhere for info!
Poison for one woman is a healing potion for another woman when it comes to hormones!
And not everyone thinks estriol is the "good" estrogen --- that's just one idea that got carried forward -- like the practical demonization of estrogen by the Dr.Lee's.
Dr. Elizabeth Lee Vliet (Women, Weight, and Hormones, Screaming to Be Heard) also gives a more balanced position on natural hormones than one-sided pro-progesterone doctors.
Mtn woman, thanks for the links. I read them all and printed the one from yourmenopausetype.com for my doc. I like the way it goes into detail about estrogen metabolism. The way I see it, based on my reading, Dr. Lee doesn't really demonize estrogen, but he certainly does call it dangerous if it is not opposed with progesterone. He advocates balance as well, and that is the approach we are taking.
I am waiting for my saliva tests to come back before I will know where I stand. Also had some cortisol testing. It is no accident that since I have been off hormones I have gained 25 pounds. I have flashes so severe I sometimes throw up, and I stay in a sweat all day.
Also, much more fatigue and anxiety.
Frankly, my QOL is suffering and I feel like hell. I do believe I will end up on hormones, but will approach it very cautiously. THe oncologist seems to have no clue how debilitating this can be. What's the point of surviving cancer if your life is miserable?
I feel having Lyme has really complicated my hormone situation. Things just do not work correctly.
Posts: 2275 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2000
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trails
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posted
oh gawd--I'm back on the oil slick of how the hell can I figure any of this out when I dont know what is up or down and there are too many variables???
I had forgotten the following info that someone wrote to me. Keep it in mind if you have endo or other estrogen heavy diseases or symptoms and you want to add progesterone: ------------------------------------------ My major concern, here, is that prometrium is bioidentical. This means that the body can use it in the same way it uses its own progesterone. Now this is normally considered a positive factor, but in that one of the functions progesterone fulfils in the body is acting as a reservoir of precursor materials out of which the adrenal glands can build other hormones, such as estrogen, some endo specialists feel that using bioidentical progesterone opens the possibility of increasing estrogen levels through this conversion process. For this reason, synthetic progesterones, called as a class "progestins" are used instead. It's hard to determine whether and to what extent this may be occurring, but it's something to think about as part of overall hormonal management. Many women dislike progestins, I won't kid you on this, because they often can be less comfortable than progesterone, especially when given at higher doses for disease control.
-------------------------------------------- oh boy. just when you thought you were in the clear.
riversinger
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4851
posted
trails, I read through the site you posted. They give a pretty balance overview of how to supplement hormones in your position. You can use testing to see if the progesterone is converting to estrogen. That IS one thing testing is useful for. You can't use it to judeg exactly where you are, but it will tell you if things are out of range.
Just because progesterone can change to estrogen does not mean it is better to use progestins! Progestins are the drugs that ARE connected to bad health outcomes.
Dr. Uzzi Reiss has a book that helps with some of the figuring out of when and what to take. He doesn't address the issue of endometriosis, or surgical menopause, but he does give you good feedback on how to tell what is out of balance.
His book is called A Natural Hormone Balance. From all I have read, I don't agree with him when he recommends TriEst, but much of the other info is good.
Just go slow, go easy. Give your body time to adjust to all of this.
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