I am just starting mepron/zith along with art for babs and am curious how many people have gotton rid of thier babs or have put it into remission.
Also how many people herxed through the roof on it, i started herxing about day four and hasnt let up, it been about 10 days.
Posts: 82 | From Northeast WI | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
Herxed thru the roof. I think my babs combo may have hit some lyme as well. And also when I finished treatment it seem to take a long time to clear the herx.
Knock on wood for the time being no sign of my babs left.
Hope you feel better soon.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm only 2 months into babs treatment, but my babs sx have disappeared almost completely. I didn't herx from it -- just started feeling better -- but a lot of folks DO herx.
I pray that the sx will not return when I go off the treatment -- babs, in some ways, is almost worse than Lyme....
-------------------- "Looks like freedom but it feels like death.. It's something in between, I guess"
Leonard Cohen, from the song "Closing Time" Posts: 822 | From California | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Using the Babs treatment of Mepron/Zithro/Art last summer/fall I herxed like crazy. I herxed more than any lyme treatment I had including IV! I had terrible head/eye pains.
I guess I have a very stubborn /chronic case. After 5 months treatment I went off and it returned like a vengence. I had air hunger, horrible sweats, fevers, anemia and extreme weakness and brain fog.
My doc put me back on the combo and alternates Biaxin with the Zithro. I have been on it almost another 5 months and I am still testing positive and still have symptoms. The fevers have settled down but my head pains/chest pains are bad. They upped my Mepron to 3 tsp.
It's a hard parasite to get rid of. Before going off treatment I urge you to get testing done (like FSH through Igenex) to make sure it is gone. I think I went off too soon and now things are even more complicated. While there is no test that is 100% accurate the FSH is very helpful.
Good luck.
Posts: 238 | From Bethlehem, PA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
Foggy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 1584
posted
Yes, had to switch LLMDs as he didn't believe in chronic Babs. Testing meant nothing for me as I was -.
Shortly after started Mepron I made dramatic progress. It has not come back since.
Posts: 2451 | From Lyme Central | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
Has anyone considered NOT using Art when they use Mepron?
I'm thinking that a lot of people who describe Horrid herxes for babs treatment include those who invariably added Art.
Also, these "herxes" with Art take a long time to clear, right?
I'm beginning to believe that unless you only have Babs, then Art is actually contraindicated for us. Now, I think Art does in fact have action against Babesia, however, I believe that Artemisinin makes the autoimmune component of Borrelia rage like a fire from hell. Of course it could have been Bartonella which flourshed, or spiral Borrelia rather than the autoimmune component of Borreliosis, the point is that some other co-infection was not very happy with the Art, and it fought back, with vengence. How can I tell? Well, gennerally, a Herx is related to the half life of the drug doing the killing. The half life of Art is approximently 6 hours. I felt sick for a little over a week after my last dose of Art which means to me that it was very unlikely to be a herx. Now could it have been, yeah, but the chances are extremely small imo.
My reasoning has to do with several experiements I performed, albiet only on one subject, myself, but they would seem to predict that Art works on Babs, then when you start makeing Borrelia angry on the Art, then you loose the effectiveness that Art had on Babs. I don't know how it happens, I have a theory based on antioxidant/oxidant balances, but it may be much more complex, and probally is.
We still need to attack Babesia, but it would be much better if we could kill this co-infection without making other infections worse in the process.
The only true Babs herx I can claim is that it made me sweat as if I was in a steam room. At night, after my medication, I would go to sleep, and as I slept, and this is not an exageration, I might as well have been in a steam room. My sweat drenched my clothes, my pillow (both sides), 3 layers of blankets, my sheets, and some of the mattress.
Other than that, I felt a lot more physical stamina, and my blood flow was a LOT better. My hands went from cold to warm, so did my feet.
That was one thing I noticed that seemed to always occur when the Babesia Medications were working for me. It leads me to believe that this co-agulation problem that most speak of is probally true, but its mostly because of Babesia. Borrelia certainly may add to the problem as they are well known to be trophic for blood vessels, but I think the bigger player is Babesia. It certainly was for me. Now, did the blood flow get better when I used Meds that only worked for Borrelia, yes, but it was no where close to the robust nature of the blood flow normalization that I experienced when my Babesia medications were working.
If you want to see what Babs regamine I took, see some of my earlier posts today about Babs.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lymescience wrote :"I just think that it makes the autoimmune component of Borrelia rage like a fire from hell. Or it may just make the spirochete proliferate, either way, while babs may not like Art, Borrelia sure as heck does."
There is some evidence that Mep and Art are antagonistic, and should not be used together, but I would like to know what "EXPERIMENT" you did on yourself that would cause you to make such a statement.
There is a Lymenetter that has seen the damage that Art and penicillin do on the keets under a microscope, that was not taking place without the Art.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ok sure, I have no problem giving out my secrets. I will publish my results, and my trial for you to observe, and make your own conclusions. I post here for the bennifit of others when I say things like above. I also made clear that this was a trial conducted only on myself, that said, it may not apply to every Lymmie, however, my opinion is that it probally does to Lymeies with evidence either past or present of Facial palsy. I presented my theory related to this in an earlier post, so check it out. Facial palsy, and other nerve palsies caused by Lyme are not understood well. We do know that for this particular manifestation of Lyme Disease that there is a clear drop in antioxidant activity, so it was theorized, and correlated that in patients with a normal antioxidant balance in this experiemental test, had the greatest chance for recovery from Bell's Palsy from Borrelia infections.
My hypothesis concerns this subgroup of Lyme Disease patients with clear sensory abnormalities that can be linked to nerve palsy. Since Art ramps up oxidative damage big time, this will cause relapse in nerve palsy due to borrelia infection, as oxidative damage is one of the primary tools for nerve palsy damage in borrelia infection.
So, now that I've made my point a bit more clear, here were the results of my trial.
First let me say that I respond rather well to Doxycycline at this dose, and I also respond well to IV levaquin, without the effects listed below. I also respond well to Bactrim and Tindamax without these side effects.
Trial Day 1
4:22pm-400mg Doxycyline, 500mg tindamax, 1 DS Septra, and 4 pills 200mg each of Artemisinin
6:07pm- 750mg Levaquin
8:12pm-3 pills artemisinin 200mg
9pm- observations: There is a strong increase in blood flow to my hands and feet. The ACA on my hands has returned strongly, and for some strange reason, this is a good sign. It seems that whenever my immune system responds in a clearly visible way to Borrelia infection, it represents a good sign. In the past, whenever I had clear arthritis of the knee if it was in response to treatment, it always correlated with an abatement of my symptoms, so perhaps the return of the ACA so quickly is good. I also have developed a rather bad vasculitis rash on my right arm, but it has always been my suspicision that I had vasultits due to my PET scan showing decreased blood flow.
Other than these signs on my skin, I'm sweating, and having deep breathing, which is exactly what happened durring my earlier trial on Mepron 2 weeks prior.
Ok, that was day 1, and since my trial lasts like 2 weeks before I came to those conclusions listed above, and I don't want to write every damed thing out, I'll just give ya the cliffs notes.
Basicially, I went through the next several days redoing everything because the next day I developed a teribble headache, I was severly dizzy, and my facial palsy was getting worse because my face had gone numb again.
Day by day, I eliminated each variable I could think of, time of day to take medicine, eat or not to eat, dosage of Artemisinin, take with Doxy or not, take with Tinda or not, take with bactrim or not, take with levaquin or not.
Then I followed other variables, what is the best dose of Art, should I combine Art with other medications and make it work better, so I followed a protocol that included using Art in the dose that produced the least relapse, but relapse none the less, and it included the addition of Mepron, Zithromax, Tindamax, Bactrim, Plaquenil, and Levaquin and I tried just about every combination therof to eliminate all the possibilities I could.
I came back to the same thing every time, Art is causing me problems. It is making me very dizzy, and my Bell's is returning. My mental status goes from quasi normal, to crap, and Art seems to be the only constant variable when this occurs. It did not feel like a herx, a herx for me is when I temporarily get better in the hours after medication, then start feeling bad for most of the next day, then gradually I get better than before I took medicine the day before. That's a herx. And I will note that I did herx durring the first day as evidenced by the rapid onset of my ACA rash, that was a good sign. However, all my visible signs of herxing which I have examined meticulasly to be a good sign, dissapeared slowly day by day as I continued the Artemisinin. The rash went away, the blood flow reduced as my hands became cold again, feet became cold again. So it was my theory that the Art did work on that 1 day in such a way as it probally killed lots of Babesia organisms to produce such a rapid immune response, however, it may also have been killing Borrelia as you suggested. The point is that this only worked for about 8 hours in only 1 day. After that point, the Artemisinin was actually harmfull, and produced clearly physical repalse as evidenced by the end of my trial which was around 2 to 4 weeks. At the end, I had visible Bell's Palsy. However, after I returned to proven treatments per my experiements, the Bells slowly went away, my thinking returned to normal, and my ACA returned on my hand. The vasculitis rash comes and goes, but never as strong as that first day on Artemisinin. The point is that while my symptoms don't show such rapid improvement as they did the first 8 hours of my Artemisinin trial, I now have predictable, slow, and steady improvement. While Art produced rapid improvement, follwed by rapid decline.
The next part of my trial was to try my original Babesia treatment and see if I improved without the problems Artemisinin caused me, I did.
I did find however that Doxycyline should not be taken anywhere near the time one takes Mepron in my trial to eliminate all variables in my particular case. It causes a sudden Babesia relapse as defined by rapidly increasing fever, horrible sweat, changed personality, and extreme lethargy and listlesness.
However, if one decides to take Rocephin after the end of a Mepron trial, it works fine. My guess is that when Doxycyline is taken the day after, or in any time near, it causes the Mepron to be reduced in blood levels 40 percent or more, and this causes the Babesia to come flying back. So remember that Mepron has a half life of 3-4 days, and that you should not take Doxycyline, if your Lyme is anything like mine, for at least a week after your last Mepron Dose.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ok, interesting information regarding my Artemisinin trial.
There is independent corroboration with my reported findings. I reported here yesterday that I experienced a rapid response to Artemisinin, followed by rapid delcine.
Now, its not exactly what my experience was like. But, it is very similar. Worth looking at!
"Recent information has come to light that indicates that the intestine builds up resistance to absorbing oral artemisinin compounds very quickly, within several days. Resistance is demonstrated by a drop to >30% of the original rate of absorption. Research indicates that this resistance can be overcome very quickly by discontinuing use of the artemisinin compounds for several days to a week; when resumed, their absorption will be at the previous higher level. (Ashton, et al., Artemisinin pharmacokinetics is time-dependent during repeated oral administration in healthy male adults, Drug Metabolism and Disposition 26 {1998} 25-27.)
Dr. Lai pointed out that this intestinal resistance and subsequent lowered absorption rate may be the basis of the plateau that many people reach on these compounds. After an initial quick response, many people seem to stabilize without a complete remission."
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
Dave6002
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9064
posted
It is thought that Arte works by producing free radicals of superoxide when contacting with Iron.
Malaria have a higher amount of Iron in their body and a lots of superoxide will be produced when Arte enter their bodies, resulting a quick kill of the partasites.
We hope that Babs also have Irons in their bodies, but I suspect that it is not as high as in malaria, otherwise Arte will kill off all Babs in days.
Our cells also contain Irons especially Red Blood Cells, therefore, they are also subjected to damages caused by free radicals released by Arte.
That's probably the side effects of Arte.
ANd Arte. would have effects on a wider spectrum of infectious agents in our bodies including Bbs, Babs, Barte and Ehrlichia, etc.
However long term use would damage the body and cause absorbence decline.
Therefore pulse usage of ARte would be prefered.
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Dave6002: It is thought that Arte works by producing free radicals of superoxide when contacting with Iron.
Malaria have a higher amount of Iron in their body and a lots of superoxide will be produced when Arte enter their bodies, resulting a quick kill of the partasites.
We hope that Babs also have Irons in their bodies, but I suspect that it is not as high as in malaria, otherwise Arte will kill off all Babs in days.
Our cells also contain Irons especially Red Blood Cells, therefore, they are also subjected to damages caused by free radicals released by Arte.
That's probably the side effects of Arte.
ANd Arte. would have effects on a wider spectrum of infectious agents in our bodies including Bbs, Babs, Barte and Ehrlichia, etc.
However long term use would damage the body and cause absorbence decline.
Therefore pulse usage of ARte would be prefered.
I can respect this position as it best co-incides with my trial and with the available published data on Art.
Thinking back, I feel that Artemisinin can be used effectivly if used very sparingly against Babesia.
Say, 2 days or 1 day every 2-3 weeks for a quick Babs kill while on a Mepron cycle.
I personally can attest that the first day it worked very well for me, and if I had used a different dose, I may not have had the headache and other side effects the following day.
But, it is my opinion that one should stick with Mepron and Zith as the main choices when treating babs, and that Artemisinin should be used as I said above because the side effects from long term use are much more severe than the bennifits, which frankly seem like zero after more than a week's use.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic