posted
There have been several discussions on this recently that many Lyme patients have low sed rates when you'd think ours would be HIGH due to the inflammation we have in our bodies.
Welllll... I just ran across a test I had way back for sed rate. [It was a "3"] Dr C noted on the test that a low sed rate often indicates hypercoagulation [which I do have].
SOOOO....all you folks with low sed rates would do well to get tested. You can get the ISAC panel done or a test for fibrinogen levels.
Treating this condition will help you get WELL....and at the very least you will FEEL BETTER once hypercoagulation is addressed.
[not to mention decreasing your risk for strokes, etc]
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
thanks lymetoo- when my duck ran my SED rate last Sept it was a 1.
here is a good link on hypercoagulation and lyme disease is listed
posted
No....not the fibrinogen. The fibrinogen keeps the abx and other nutrients from getting to the cells.
My LLMD uses heparin OR lumbrokinase and baby aspirin. The lumbro works on the fibrinogen. Aspirin thins the blood only. [doesn't make alot of sense, does it!?...read the links above]
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
My sed rate's been elevated since day one with Lyme. High 30's to low 40's, over 20 years, with several different labs. (Except it's interesting to note that the one sed rate I had taken at Yale about 7-8 years ago was about 8.)
But as far as hypercoagulation and fibrinogen (?) I haven't a clue, no one's ever tested me.
I am beginning to feel like a real oddity lately with all this talk about Lyme and low sed rates! Jeepers Creepers!!!
Posts: 459 | From Connecticut - just across the river from the Lymes (Old Lyme, Hadlyme, East Lyme, South Lyme & Lyme) | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
This theory....possible, but I think improbable. To my knowledge this has never been proven to be attributable to Lyme...... BUT, this of this theory, how about we attribute the sed rate to something that actually directly effects red blood cells, and hence the Sed Rate, thats right folks you guess it..... da da da da, BABESIA!!!
Note that in cases of anemia, sed rate is low. Note that in cases where the morphology of red blood cells is altered (meaning their form, such as red blood cells that have been lysed or disfigured from parasites, or think of sickle cell anemia where the red blood cells look like a sickle), guess what, low sed rate!
My advice, if you have definate Lyme, have only partially responded, have never taken a Babesia treatment, and may or may not even have titers, or a positive Babesia test, like ever.
Pressure your doc to treat you for Babs, I think you'll find this to be the most plausible theory for low sed rate being that its the only theory with scientific backing (though not ness in babesia, my meaning is in the idea, and that low sed rates occur in malaria).
Hope this helps clear up confusion, and helps to promote good science within the Lyme community!
BTW, I had a low sed rate, 0!! Had a partial response to Lyme Antibiotics, but like others have postulated, a good sign of co infection is where you relapse rather quickly when off Lyme drugs ie: a few days.
I started taking Mepron and Zith.......WOW OH MAN OH MAN, my fatigue is getting kicked in the shins, I'm alieve, I'm alieve!
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Actually, from what I've read (an example is posted below), increased fibrinogen can cause (falsely) an ELEVATED sed rate. That said, my low sed rate is accompanied by a normal fibrinogen level. Also, haven't read much that suggests that a low sed rate is indicative of much of anything and I suspect that's why it was never noted in my med records...
posted
For me, low sed rate and no hypercoagulation. Been tested twice at Hemex, last was six months ago, everything normal.
I actually wanted to have that test be positive cuz I know of people who've done well on the therapy. Oh well....
Posts: 52 | From California | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
A high sed rate indicates hypercoagulation and inflamation - a sed rate is basically the time it take for the red blood cells to fall in the test tube.
Normally I have a sed rate of about 12 but when I have a flare (I have weekly bloodwork done) my sed rate shoots up to 90+ indicating hypercoagulation.
Posts: 98 | From MA | Registered: Dec 2005
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5dana8
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7935
posted
my sed rate has always been around 1.
Which I could never figure out . Becuase in therory if you have an active bacterial infection its supposed to go up.
Nothing about lyme and my labs have ever made any sense.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Just a thought. I had very bad hypercoagulation and low SED rate. Maybe for some of us the high levels of fibrin that have been likened to Teflon coat things up so that immune system can't so easily attack joints for instance, causing inflammation. Joints still hurt, because critters are in there.
I know that since treating hypercoagulation for 3 years and then using ABX, when herxing my joints definetly get inflammation now. Any, this is just a theory, nothing I've read, more my experience with hypercoagulation and inflammation.
I have also accumulated MUCH info on hypercoagulation.
quote:Originally posted by Bluetick: A high sed rate indicates hypercoagulation and inflamation - a sed rate is basically the time it take for the red blood cells to fall in the test tube.
Normally I have a sed rate of about 12 but when I have a flare (I have weekly bloodwork done) my sed rate shoots up to 90+ indicating hypercoagulation.
Can you give any supporting evidence to your contention that a high ESR (aka sed rate) indicates hypercoagulation? I've not seen such data in my research.
Thx.
Posts: 689 | From western MA (we say buttER and pizzA) | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I cannot provide any other data except what my LLMD and non-LL PCP told me.
How I understand it (and I totally could be wrong, or heard wrong) was that with hypercoagulation, the RBC are "sticky" (sorry this is my dumbed down version) and fall at a slower rate which results in a higher sedimentation rate. I believe that the sed rate is actually measured in time (seconds, maybe?) so a higher rate means longer time to settle.
Every doctor that I have worked with that has used this test doesn't put a ton of weight to it. I like it because it provides evidence of flares but I don't think that it is particularly diagnostic. I also believe that it goes up with inflammation.
Between flares, I feel better and my sed rate is low normal. I have documented hypercoagulation that has improved over 2+ years of treatment.
Posts: 98 | From MA | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
My ESR suddenly elevated to the 30's long before really horrible lyme symptoms appeared.
It still remains elevated, but tends to increase to the upper 40's - 50's during flares.
The ESR is a nonspecific test for inflammation. An increase in inflammation in the body will cause the release of acute phase reactant proteins. Fibrniogen is one of those proteins.
More proteins will cause the RBCs to become sticky, known as rouleaux. This will cause increased sedimentation of the RBCs.
The nonspecific nature of the test results in many of false increases and decreases.
As previously mentioned, anemia will cause a decreased ESR either due to the lighter RBCs or a variation in RBC shapes that will inhibit the rouleaux formation.
Measuring fibrinogen levels can be another measure of inflammation. I'm not really aware of increased fibrinogen causing hypercoag states.
Another more specific test for inflammation is the CRP test. CRP is another acute phase reactant. Mine is slightly elevated.
Elevated CRP levels is scary for all of us with chronic inflammation because an increase is associated with increased risk of coronary artery disease.
Posts: 3 | From Maryland | Registered: May 2006
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posted
My ESR suddenly elevated to the 30's long before really horrible lyme symptoms appeared.
It still remains elevated, but tends to increase to the upper 40's - 50's during flares.
The ESR is a nonspecific test for inflammation. An increase in inflammation in the body will cause the release of acute phase reactant proteins. Fibrniogen is one of those proteins.
More proteins will cause the RBCs to become sticky, known as rouleaux. This will cause increased sedimentation of the RBCs.
The nonspecific nature of the test results in many of false increases and decreases.
As previously mentioned, anemia will cause a decreased ESR either due to the lighter RBCs or a variation in RBC shapes that will inhibit the rouleaux formation.
Measuring fibrinogen levels can be another measure of inflammation. I'm not really aware of increased fibrinogen causing hypercoag states.
Another more specific test for inflammation is the CRP test. CRP is another acute phase reactant. Mine is slightly elevated.
Elevated CRP levels is scary for all of us with chronic inflammation because an increase is associated with increased risk of coronary artery disease.
Posts: 3 | From Maryland | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Welcome, clinlabscientist! It is sure nice to have some real authorities around on subjects like this.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
I am pretty sure I read a piece by Dr. K, wherein he says one clue it might be Lyme is that ESR is high at onset, then often quickly drops to below 5 and stays there as the Bb's quickly hide from our immune system.
My ESR was 55 upon hospital admission when I first got sick, but within 4 days had dropped to 4, and has stayed there for 20 yrs.
I was treated for hypercoagulation (just in case), despite normal fibrinogen and low CRP and negative coag testing, with Nattokinase at high doses for over a year. My sed rate stayed at 4 or 5.
I know alternative practitioners think a sed rate below 5 is very bad, but can't remember why (fog, sorry). Conventional docs don't have a "too low" number for ESR.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Does anyone know if the Thrombophilia test is the same as the ISAC test? I suspect I have hypercoagulation. My sed rate is 1 and when I cut myself the blood is so thick and almost coagulates instantly.
I asked my LLMD for the testing for hypercoagulation thinking the ISAC was the standard test. I got the results back today over the phone and they said the test was normal. They did a Thrombophila test. I asked about the ISAC test and they didn't know what I was talking about. Are these tests the same they both require 6 vials of blood.
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I have a different understanding of SED rate, along the lines of what Bluetick said about "dead bugs" floating around.
I believe SED (or ESR) rate is a result of "debris" in the blood, and can also be the result of apoptosis (immune system, or other, killing the bad cells)
Often in Lyme, there are no antibodies formed, and since the pathogens delay apoptosis, the SED rate is almost always very low.
In my experience when something effective, or your own immune system - starts killing the pathogens, then the SED rate goes up --
You might find elevated WBC's and reactive lymphocytes occurring at that time, or before a SED rate jump, if it is a true immune response.
otherwise, I would guess effective "killing agents" could also bring a "post killing" SED rate rise.
Mo
[ 22. July 2006, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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