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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Starting Buhner's protocol

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Author Topic: Starting Buhner's protocol
Penn92
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I finally pulled the trigger last night and ordered what I need to get going on this. For those who are considering it, I thought I'd let you know what I got and where. I also have questions for those who are already doing it (JimBob, R U there?). First, the questions...

Are there supplements that should be taken at the same time? taken separate from each other?

Can I take multivitamins/Vit. C/selenium/zinc with copper/other vitamins and minerals at the same time as the herbs?

Does anyone know of a suitable substitute for the bloodroot tincture? I can't find one that fits Buhner's recommendation of a 1:5 ratio and 50% alcohol. What does a 1:5 ratio mean, anyway? I might consider making my own tincture, but don't want to poison myself, LOL! I found bloodroot at mountainroseherbs.com for $41 a pound. Is that reasonable?

OK, on to the purchases so far. Everything listed conforms to Buhner's recomendations for dosages. Some of these you may not need as you may not have the symptoms I do.

www.herbsmd.com
Sarsaparilla - Nature's Herbs - 100 caps for $5.70

Zinc/copper combo - Solaray - 100 caps for $5.59

Vincamine - Source Naturals - 30 tabs for $5.87

Cat's Claw - Raintree - 100 caps for $9.99

Andrographis - Planetary Formulas - 60 tabs for $4.58

Shipping was about $7

www.myvitanet.com

Resveratrol - Source Naturals - 60 tabs for $9.79

Shipping was $4.95

I'm paying for pre-made capsules in order to try out the protocol and see if my stomach will tolerate all of this. If it is OK and I see improvement, I'll spring for the capsule machine ($11.95 at Wonderlabs) and start making my own from bulk herbs.

I hope this helps some of you who are considering herbs but are finding it hard to organize your purchases because of fatigue and brain fog. I've been on a good stretch of days since last week so I managed to put it together. [woohoo]

--------------------
Getting older is when we would rather not have a good time
than have to get over it. - Oscar Wilde

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777
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1:5 propably means the ratio between herb and liquid by weight. And the liquid for the extraction is half water half alcohol.

Start slowly as recommended by Buhner. Some people react strongly especially to cat's claw and andrographis.

Take care & good luck! [Smile]

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seibertneurolyme
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DO you mean redroot instead of bloodroot? These are very different herbs.

Can't find my copy of the book right now, but I am pretty sure that bloodroot was not included in any of the protocols.

Bea Seibert

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777
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Yes Bea, in Buhner's book it's all about the red root . (p.172 & 185f.)
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anadyomene
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Hi there,just wanted to put my five cents in for what it's worth...after discussing Cat's claw with a holistic and integrative doc, plus my own research on the matter, I found out that it seems to be majorly important to take a cat's claw product which is TOA free and of a certain quality and origin. To my knowledge, there are currently only two sources for this product:
Nutramedix and Nutricology which sells their product under the name prima una de gato. you find out more about this product on their site as well. It costs a lot more than around $9.00!!!, more like 30$, which is how I came to respond to your posting.
You can find out how to take it and other products with it by googeling "Dr. Cowden's lyme disease protocol" or some such combination.
I have been on it for the last 2 month(after being off antibiotics for 6 months and starting to decline again), and it did make me feel better-significantly-...after herxing on some combo for awhile. But...I am just now having "wild" thyroid symptoms...which may or my not have anything to do with lyme.
good luck

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Penn92
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Thanks for the correction on the bloodroot vs. red root. I'd have been going to all of that trouble to make the tincture for nothing!

I'm finding places that have the tincture, but it is $10 for 1 oz. and I can't afford that. Is the herb not as effective taken in its dry form, like in capsules? I have found several places with that form available, but can't find it in bulk. Can I take the capsules? Where might I look for bulk red root to make a tincture? My lymph nodes are always swollen, so I'd really like to try this remedy.

Anyone else able to answer the questions about taking herbs together or separate from each other?

--------------------
Getting older is when we would rather not have a good time
than have to get over it. - Oscar Wilde

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Penn92
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I also wanted to comment concerning the TOA/POA cat's claw. According to Buhner, "TOAs and POAs are both important in Lyme infection. There is no need to seek out a TOA-free extract." (page 102). I'm trusting his knowledge here and going with the regular cat's claw. Raintree is known for good quality and conservation-minded harvesting of the cat's claw, so I'm comfortable with this choice.

--------------------
Getting older is when we would rather not have a good time
than have to get over it. - Oscar Wilde

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777
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You can check several places where to get Buhner herbs @:

This Thread

The TOA/POA-controversy has been discussed several times here. Use the search-function or have a look @ this current thread and the links given there:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=045872

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Penn92
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I've read that thread about Buhner's herbs a bunch, but no one says where they get their red root. JimBoB mentions that he makes his own tincture but didn't say where he gets the herb. Maybe he'll check in here and let us know or I'll PM him.

Thanks for the TOA/POA link. I'll check that out next.

--------------------
Getting older is when we would rather not have a good time
than have to get over it. - Oscar Wilde

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SunRa
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In the fall, my friends (organic farmers and herbalists) will be harvesting red root in northcentral WA. From what I understand, the root is HUGE and tricky to dig up properly - a major undertaking. They're hoping to be able to do it this fall. It will definitely be high quality and I'm excited about it. I know that doesn't help anyone right NOW, but still thought I'd share. Ancestree Herbals
(I hope no one is offended by me posting their link, I make no profit!! But I've seen them work and they're an herbal source I trust)

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5dana8
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hey penn92

Sorry I don't have many answer's to your questions. I read the book and bought the herbs and was all set to start but then my stomach gave out.

From reading other posters responses from buhners protocal many people here found it helpful to start out slow and work up to the reccomended doses in buhners book.

Some would even start out with one herb at a time and see if they didn't have any adverse reactions to it and then move on to the next.
And then slowly build up to buhners herbal dosages.

Good luck with your herbs. You may want to do a search here on the individual herbs. I did this and found it very helpful.

And did you can type in the word Buhner too and find lots of info.

Take care
make sure to talk over everything first with your LLMD

[ 03. August 2006, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: 5dana8 ]

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5dana8

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robi
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redroot is available from www.mountainroseherbs.com

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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JimBoB
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Sorry PENN92 about not getting on here, but I have been super busy selling old cars, etc.. AND the terrible heat gets to me.

I almost didn't even come on tonight, but thought I would, and glad I did.

Yes, DEFINETELY RED ROOT. I have posted about it umpteen times. And some times in great depth.

For SURE follow Buhner's recomendations. Except, maybe start out slower than he recommends. I had to because of stomach issues.

Vitamin C is also VERY important in his protocol, about 1000 to 3000mg a day. And THAT is WAY too much to just take ascorbic pills. I was killing my stomach with them long before I read his book.

The ONLY way to go is with his recommendation of C-Salts, tm, from nutri.com. Google them and then CALL THEM on their toll free line. Shipping is free also. I buy the large bottle as it is good for 5 or 6 months, and is about HALF as expensive as the smaller bottle, PER DOSE. It has gone up to $30 a bottle now for the LARGE size, from the old price of $28. BUT worth EVERY penny.

IT was the ONLY THING that made MY stomach quit hurting and the nausea go away. Absolutely NOTHING else worked to do that that I tried.

You can get your Red Root cut and sifted from StarWest Botanicals. You might be able to get it from 1stChineseHerbs also. But it will still probably be the StarWest brand.

IF you want to get it already made, and I would recommend it to begin with, both for the bottle with a dropper, and also you will have to make the tincture and it will have to sit for about 4 to 6 weeks before you can use it. AND I also recommend getting that RED ROOT ASAP. DON'T wait, you NEED it. Do NOT wait. AM I coming across to you all. IT is more important than the rest of the herbs. Also Milk Thistle and sarsaparilla. CLEAN OUT YOUR BODY!

I use about 30 to 40 drops, three times a day, of the Red Root, when NOT using Artemisia annua or Artemisinin, and about 90 to 100 drops three times a day with.

And by ALL MEANS follow what Buhner says about the Cat's Claw too. Forget the super expensive TOA free. NOT necessary, and does NOT really do a better job overall. Buhner tells it like it is. He has researched all of this very, very well. Read and reread and reread HIS BOOK.

I would be careful also, on WHAT multivitamins I took and how much. Buhner recommends, Vitamin C, B, especially 5; and A. I am taking vitamin B from Wonderlabs as they are fairly cheap, and I get my capsules from them, and they seem to be conscious people. I only take ONE half of one pill of the B complex a day. THAT is even strong. AND you neeed lots of water with it.

Your urine will be NEON greenish yellow for over half the day when taking this B complex. Scared me at first, but that is normal with B vitamins. I get the Maximum, as it has NO vitamin C in it. Again, I want the C from the C-Salts only.

Stay away from GARLIC when On Buhner's protocol. Garlic is a HOT herb, and Buhner's are all COLD or NEUTRAL. Hot cancels out Cold.

You MIGHT want to get a bottle of DEVIL's CLAW also. It did wonders for me. It may make you nauseous the first day or two on just one pill a day, but after a couple days I was fine and I wouldn't be without it now. It does cause some gas also, so I do NOT take it before bedtime.

Hope this helps some.

Jim [Cool]

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robi
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I spoke with my acupuncturist who has many years trianing in Chinese Medicine. She said that "hot" does not exactly cancel out "cold".

Often western herbologists will rx herbs singly. Chinese medicine always rx's combinations. They take in to account the person and what is already present in terms of heat and dampness.

I am not saying that garlic should or should not be taken. Just that I do not think it is as straightforward as "you should" or "should not" .... the answer to that is not the same for everyone.....

Working with someone who is trained with herbs and knows how to assess YOU and YOUR BODY is really what is needed for the best answer.

There is no cook book for Lyme treatment as we have all come to learn.

Hope this helps,
robi

[ 24. July 2006, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: robi ]

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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JimBoB
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Sorry Robi, but "I" got it from a Master. WHAT do you get when you mix HOT water and COLD water?
No they do not cancel OUT, BUT you get LUKEWARM. NOT much help if you are trying to treat the WHOLE person. IF you use a NEUTRAL herb, along with your "hot" or "cold" regimen; THAT is okay.

Buhner, IS a giant help to us not wanting to have to undergo the side effects of abx, and have chosen a more natural way of doing it, by choosing herbs. HE has researched it VERY thoroughly, and until I can find something else that is better out there, I find it is better to STICK to his protocol and expanded protocols. HE KNOWS what works together and what doesn't. HE has NOT "dropped the ball" as SOME have reported here on this board in the past.

I have had to learn SOME of this the hard way.

Jim [Cool]
Use HIS regimens and you will MOST LIKELY stay out of trouble. AND get the MOST BENEFIT from the herbs that you ARE using. IF another "expert" thinks something else works, use THEIR regimen, but don't knock or refute what others are using from Buhner's regimen. His work for the most part, for most that I have conversed with.

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robi
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I am not knocking him at all. As a matter of fact I am doing his protocol. However, there is more tan one answer to all questions ............. any MASTER will tell you that.

I have great respect for Buhner's knowledge. I am grateful he has provided us with a clear, concise protocol.

"Sorry Robi, but "I" got it from a Master. WHAT do you get when you mix HOT water and COLD water?
No they do not cancel OUT, BUT you get LUKEWARM. NOT much help if you are trying to treat the WHOLE person. IF you use a NEUTRAL herb, along with your "hot" or "cold" regimen; THAT is okay."

That is the view of western herbalists. There are other views. I am providing info .... not saying he or you are "wrong". This is a discussion board is it not?

robi

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Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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JimBoB
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quote:
Originally posted by robi:

snip>

"Sorry Robi, but "I" got it from a Master. WHAT do you get when you mix HOT water and COLD water?
No they do not cancel OUT, BUT you get LUKEWARM. NOT much help if you are trying to treat the WHOLE person. IF you use a NEUTRAL herb, along with your "hot" or "cold" regimen; THAT is okay."

That is the view of western herbalists. There are other views. I am providing info .... not saying he or you are "wrong". This is a discussion board is it not?

robi

I believe THAT is the view of Chinese herbalists. At least according to the Master I talked to. Not Buhner. HE seems to follow more the eastern way, though I don't remember him saying so in his book.

And yes, this is a discussion board and it is GOOD that we are discussing it. THAT is how we will get it all straight in the end.
Jim [Cool]

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levity101
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Am glad to see this post as I am slowly starting on Buhner's protocol and am interested in how others are doing.

I started with Resveratrol 1 3xday, after a week I went up to 2 3Xday. I'm holding there and adding 1 Artemisinin, then next week will take 2/day. Next will add Andrographis.

My stomach has always been very sensitive to herbs and I've been dealing with GI/gallbladder motility issues, too.

What is working for me and was suggested my our LLMD for taking antibiotics, is to take the herbs with a meal, but after a few bites of food. Then continue with a little food, then small sips of water to take the tablets, then a couple more bites, and so on. Sounds simple, but this approach makes a huge difference for me. If I just eat and then swallow a handful at once it gives me trouble.

Good luck, everyone,
Nancy

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robi
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I found this on a site called OrientalMedicine.

"It is very important to understand that herbs do not possess one quality. They are most always a combination of properties and temperatures and may reach one to as many as twelve organ systems. These combinations of qualities give each herb their character, and if you understand the functions behind the properties, than you can surmise what an herb is capable of before even becoming acquainted with it. Learning to combine the appropriate formula for each patient is a medical art which takes years to develop. A tremendous amount of respect should be given to those who do it well."

I am not an expert. I am not telling folks what to take or not take. I am ONLY suggesting that you find an herbologist you trust and work with that person. They must know your body! No one with any credibility or knowledge would Rx for an individual case without knowing that individual.

I am only suggesting that we don't tell folks what to do in their specific situations.

Yes, a general protocol is good. I am thankful to Buhner for his work. Beyond that book, I take advice from someone who has studied and practiced chinese medicine. I just don't think we should be handing out advice based on a few conversations and reading a few articles.

Utimately, of course I guess the decision lies with the person reading the advice to act on it or not. But, because many folks show up here desperate, I don't think we should be presenting ourselves as experts. How long have you studied Chinese medicie and herbology JB?

robi

[ 25. July 2006, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: robi ]

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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JimBoB
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Robi:

NO one on this board is an expert in MY opinion. However, some have MORE knowledge than others.

I am a Master of Photography, Master Artist and Photographic Craftsman, AND a Doctor of Motors. I did not attain these degrees overnight. Nevertheless, ALL my knowledge did not come at the end, when receiving these degrees either. NOR did I quit learning AFTER receiving these degrees. I have ALWAYS said, as long as I can remember; "When we quit learning, it is time to quit breathing".

I have seen many, many Masters who really weren't a hoot. And many others that were/are fantastic.

It took GREAT effort and study to become one, and even more effort to keep up the quality and even continue to improve upon past knowledge.

WHAT is the difference in a SO, so Master and a Great One? IMHO it is the heart and soul and passion of them. We are ALL people. We ALL have SOME degree of knowledge and expertise in various areas. How much is partly a matter of time spent, but more importantly EFFORT put forth in what EVER amount of time spent.

I am NOT a Master Herbalist, just a person who has been studying, experimenting, and LIVING Healing Lyme. With Passion, heart and soul.

Jim [Cool]

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robi
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I agree with you. You are not a Master hebalist.....
That's the point. SO IMHO it is not a good idea to tell folks what to do. ie don't take Garlic with the Buhner Protocol.

Share your experience (which, btw, I think is valuable) ..... yes. Talk about what you have learned and what has worked for you? .... absolutely.

Tell otheres what to do ........... probably not unless you have the qualifications.

Done going around in circles,
robi

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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minoucat
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Just a note on Resveretrol or however you spell it--I was fine on it until I started taking doxycycline (then doryx when my stomach revolted).

For me, Resveret--whatever and doxy/Doryx don't mix. Really upsets my stomach. When I quit the Resveretrol my stomach did fine on Doryx.

Not real sure what to do about this -- don't want to do a partial protocol, and the neurotoxin protocol seemed very helpful. Buhner isn't anti-abx when it comes to treating LD/Co, but he does emphasize that the herbal protocol really aids recovery.

Maybe when the spelling part of my brain comes back online I'll drop Buhner a note -- I'll share whatever feedback I get from him.

Penn92, I took the same approach that you did -- pre-packaged herbs for several months until I know how well this works for me. Also eliminates the issue of me totally blowing the dosages.

--------------------
*********************

RECIDITE, PLEBES! Gero rem imperialem!
(Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.)



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JimBoB
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Robi:

YOU have YOUR way of reporting, and I have MY way of reporting.

IF you really think about it, YOU are telling ME what to do, or NOT do, correct. I think you will see that IF you reread both of our posts.

I have always said, I am NOT a Medical Doctor, just a Doctor of Motors. So let the reader take it ALL with a grain of salt.

However, UNTIL Buhner himself says that it is OKAY to take Garlic WITH his herbs for Lyme, I will stand pat on my honest educated opinion on the Garlic/cold herb issue.

Very sincerely yours,
Jim [Cool]

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hurting1999
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How's it been going on the Buhner's protocol?
Worth it?

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hardynaka
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I took Buhner's protocol with garlic many times. Not simultaneously, because I took garlic with food and Buhner's herbs without.

I'm now again without garlic, I don't feel any difference at all concerning Buhner's herbs efficiency. I did find frozen garlic killed quite some other stuff his herbs didn't (main protocol).

It's though true that all texts I read about Chinese herbs (different from Buhner's), ALL herbs are cold, I mean, herbs for lyme/ syphilis.

Would be great if we could all see a Chinese herbalist on top of our lyme literates, massagists, naturopaths, dentists, accupuncturists, ostheopaths, homeopaths ... but Gosh, that's neverending!!

And about his protocol. It's been great for me. Almost symptomless when on it, but arthritis comes back when without. Only symptoms left when on herbs is cold feeling in the morning. Even fatigue is gone.

I just feel his herbs are not enough to treat brain and intestinal parasites, plus cleansing of heavy metals (for me an important an issue). I get extra help for these.

I'm very sensitive on stomach and GI issues, never got trouble with his herbs (main protocol). But got liver pain with toa-free cats claw version (tried it before Buhner's protocol).

Selma

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robi
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Getting off ABX and transitioning to Buhner Protocol has been great for me. Like Hardynaka I am able to feel good on the protocol, but if I skip a day the symptoms come right back. Still, I feel wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than on ABX.

ABX were killing me after 2 years on many combos. Now don't get me wrong. I would do the ABX all over again. I would not advise to skip ABX. I think they helped me tremendously. Now the herbs are working well.

I have accupuncture and lymph massage regularly also. There was a marked improvement in getting off ABX and getting on herbs. I did a 60 day run on Diflucan between the two. So I think that helped with the yeast from the long term ABX. I eat very healthy, no drinking, no smoking, etc. etc.

So that's my opinion. Yes, ABX first and a good LLMD ........ but then there are other therapies.
ABX alone are not the answer ..... i am convinced of that!!

robi

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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sadie420
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Whew! This is a long thread so this may have already been posted, but there is now a forum to discuss Buhner's protocol, if you're interested:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Lyme_Aid_Buhner/

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ChrisBtheLymie
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I am thinking about following the Buhner alongside the ABX. I have only been on ABX for 6 weeks, so it is still early days. But I would like to add herbs alongside, untill one day I can come off the ABX and continue with the herbs.

I plan to add PC-Samento, PC-Noni, Sarsaparilla, Andrographis, Stephania root and maybe Japanese Knotweed if I can find it.

I will also be doing what Dr. K says about detoxing neurotoxins, etc.

I have heard good stories on the Buhner protocol alone. Recently heard of someone who is now almost 100% better by just taking the herbs alone. I guess everyone is different.

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JimBoB
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I have been off the ABX since last February, and on herbs only.

I have quit Andrographis for about two or three weeks now, and have substituted in Coptis. I had some trouble with my stomach and intestines the first three days, but has been pretty good since. I am up to two capsules a day now.
I want to go to three capsules a day, maybe next week.

Enventually I will go back to Andrographis, but I felt I needed a changeup on the protocol to work on the Chetes. I had terrible torn ligaments in my "good" heel, and could hardly walk for several months. I quit Cats Claw also for a few weeks and then restarted it. Now the past several days, my heel is much, much better. Hope it stays that way.

NO Garlic, Olive leaf or Oregano anymore. But I am still taking, Stephania Root, Cats Claw, Devils Claw, Sarsaparilla, Nettle, Milk Thistle, Red Root and Periwinkle tinctures. And have added the Coptis like I said, and Schisandra Berry.

Plus I take a vitamin B complex which has a pretty strong B5 in it.
Also Vitamine E and C-Salts.

AND yes, I feel many times better than when I was on abx or abx and herbs together.

Jim [Cool]
###

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farah
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Hey Hardynaka,

I am a Chinese herbalist and an acupuncturist by trade. And I am around this board a lot. People can feel free to pick my brain. I have used my own protocol, not Buhner's, but his has a lot of merit and seems to work well for a lot of people.

Farah

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klutzo
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Hi Farah,
Your mailbox is full. No surprise there, after the offer you made!

Would you be so kind as to post a thread outlining your protocol for those of us who could not reach you? That way you won't have as much typing to do as in trying to answer us all individually, adn those who could not get through can get an idea of your protocol.

P.S. My TCM dx was: "Deficiency of Chi, and deficiency of Yang in the kidney".


Thanks for your generosity,
Klutzo

OOPS! MY APOLOGIES. No need for a new thread.
EVERYONE PLEASE NOTE: I just did a search for farah's name and found a recent post with a complete outline of her protocol. Others please do the same, as it is all listed there.

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Healing in Santa Cruz
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Hi Everyone, Buhner is going to be answering questions on planetthrive.com. Get your questions in this weekend to Julie. Take care Joyce
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hardynaka
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Hi Farah, great to know you're a Chinese herbalist and acupuncturist! Acupucnture/shiatsu /moksha have really helped me my whole life (long before lyme).

Your tip about rubbing oils made me get rid of one of my last symptoms, light air hunger!!! I'm still rubbing the stuff just to be sure it won't come back. I use my book-knowledge about accupressure points to rub stuff into the points.

So I'm today symptom free but under Buhner's herbs (plus a st. john's wort), KMT and metal detox stuff! No more fatigue, no chills in the morning, no light air hunger, my last symptoms. Far from being cured, but it's already great to feel good !!!

Thanks for the tip!

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