TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
I've been sick for many years and have never had a bart rash until I started treatment for lyme. My bart tests came back negative (I know they can be negative and one can still have bart though).
They are on my side, above my waist. I saw my LLMD yesterday and he said it is bart. I checked the archives and see where a few others mention getting the rash once they start treatment.
I should have asked my LLMD but didn't. Does anyone know why the rash would show up while on abx but not before? Thanks for any info. Terry
[ 05. February 2008, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: TerryK ]
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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I don't know why the Bart rash does this. It did for me, too. I can't remember how long I was into treatment when my Bart rash showed up. Mine was on my abdomen, hips, and a little on my underarms.
My theory is that the abx stir it up and send what was deep down up to the surface.
I have also toyed with the idea that the bart rash was actually parasitic expression.
Alison
--------------------
The obscure we see eventually. The completely obvious, it seems, takes longer. --- Edward R. Murrow Posts: 923 | From California | Registered: Aug 2005
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cactus
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Member # 7347
posted
I've been wondering about exactly the same thing.
Never had a bart rash through many years of illness, and 18 mos of abx. Then I started Levaquin to go after salmonella/legionella, and suddenly the classic bart rash popped up, along with lots of bart symptoms.
Alison's theories work for me, and I've also pondered that my immune system never recognized the bart, so never fought it till now.
I'll be interested, if you find an answer to this... You are definitely not alone.
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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Jill E.
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Member # 9121
posted
My Bart rash showed up once I started Levaquin, although I'd already been on Lyme antibiotics for more than two years.
Also, my Bart test turned positive about that time, after several negatives. But we always knew I had Bart based on my central nervous system symptoms.
I agree that somehow once we hit the Bart with the right medications, it either stirs it up or it's fighting back or something like that.
Jill
-------------------- If laughter is the best medicine, why hasn't stand-up comedy cured me? Posts: 1773 | From San Diego | Registered: Apr 2006
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clairenotes
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posted
My daughter has a few small red streaks on her back that appeared after a strong herx reaction to an anti-spirochete remedy.
It has made me wonder what bart actually is.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
quote:Originally posted by clairenotes: My daughter has a few small red streaks on her back that appeared after a strong herx reaction to an anti-spirochete remedy.
It has made me wonder what bart actually is.
Claire
Your pm box is full You said herx reaction to an anti-spirochete remedy
What anti-spirochete remedy???
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
During research on bart I learned that the lab is testing for a certain strain. If you are carrying a different strain, the test would say negative.
Same with lyme test etc. The DNA of these vector borne illnesses have migrated and changed over the years. Changed faster than the labs and medical science. Meaner and smarter too.
Also bacteria, viruses, parasites are territorial and will take turns making life miserable. I always imaged them playing tag with each other. Tag...you're it.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Map said:
"Also bacteria, viruses, parasites are territorial and will take turns making life miserable. I always imaged them playing tag with each other. Tag...you're it."
I have likened it to a merry-go-round!!
Tree -- a PM was sent not long ago. Had no idea message center was full.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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aklnwlf
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5960
posted
Same thing for me too. Six months after picc-line was removed relapsed big time.
Joint pain, big circular patches that were yellow in the middle (disgusting)red around that and horrible headaches, etc...
Anytime they try to reduce my Levaquin (2 months straight) it came right back. So now I'm back to square 1.
This is my 2nd or 3rd week on orals everyday but have a lot of head pressure and pain.
BTW, I never at anytime remember having any rash before or during my Lyme treatment.
-------------------- Do not take this as medical advice. This comment is based on opinion and personal experience only.
Alaska Lone Wolf Posts: 6138 | From Columbus, GA | Registered: Jul 2004
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Thank you all for replying. I think Alison may be right that the treatment stirs it up.
Here is a presentation about co-infections that goes into some detail about the rashes.
Dr. F. talks a lot about the gastro presentation of bart and the specific rash that goes along with that. I just watched the presentation this morning. Here are some notes:
Bartonella is very prevalent in the small study they did of 80 patients in New Jersey.
rash - deep purple - hard - due to new blood vessel formation
The rash is a result of new red blood vessels being made / inflammation
rash won't fade without treatment
Bartonella rashes have been described as any of these Rashes are maculaopapular (they are flat) urticarial (itching) erythema nodosum - hard firm nodule granuloma annulaire ring worm like - appears round - elevated thrombocytopenic purpura - pinpoint rashes
The typical rash that they saw with the gastro presentation is eukoclastic vasculitis - inflammation of the blood vessels - the reason they resemble stretch marks is that they cause endothelial proliferation.
Bartonella causes the blood vessels to multiply
Bartonella elicits IL2, IL6, IL10 These cause the leukoclastic vasulitis and new blood vessels (neovascularization) IL6 is the one that is responsible for inflammation When treated they fade over time
Bartonella is known to cause cat scratch fever lymphadeopathy Liver infections - granulomatous hepatitis spleen infection pneumonia fever of unknown origin
Gastrointestinal bartonella has also been known to cause hepatosplenic abcess abdominal pain pancreatoduodenal lymphadenitis mesenteric adenitis
New GI Presentation patients present with skin rash abdominal pain heartburn mesenteric adenitis
Heartburn radiates up to the esophagus Pain not associated with food, position, time of day Pain not improved with histamine blockers, PPI (proton pump inhibitors), antacids
Very hard to get IgM positive for bartonella The patients they included all had IgG positive
For the gastro presentation - enlarged lymph nodes in the abdomen - can be confirmed by doing a cat scan lymph nodes were greater than 1 cm in diameter no hepatosplenic granulomas
his own method of treating it: recommended are doxycycline and zithromax - good for killing infections that are outside the cell -infections that are inside the cell are a little harder to kill - proton pump inhibitor prevents the infection from getting outside the cell and the cell dies with the infection in it.
He also talks about h. pylori and some other co-infections. If you want to know more, check out the video.
Thanks again for all your replies. Terry
[ 05. February 2008, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: TerryK ]
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
Some brief notes from that DVD He say's that 8-12 weeks levoflaxoxin seems to be the cure but other abx that work for cat scratch does not work. cipro levofloxacin best treatment - efficacy decreased if given with other erythros
some abx improve symptoms but don't clear infection -
zithro does not work and doxy does not work
3 months if tolerated - more effective if given with proton pump inhibitor
Best if you get the DVD and watch it in order to get all the details.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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[ 29. March 2007, 04:45 AM: Message edited by: jasonsmith ]
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Sorry, don't know of any videos for babs at this time. I am reading the new book by Dr. S. "The Diagnosis and Treatment of Babesia". I highly recommend it. Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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Vanilla
Unregistered
posted
Do bart rashes itch or burn at all? I seem to be asking a lot of questions on itching lately but I am trying to figure out what the heck is going on with my body so sorry in advance for any tired of the itchy questions.
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