Topic: Lyme/ Hormones/Magnesium....This is IMPORTANT!!!
Jellybelly
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Member # 7142
posted
I have been feeling AWFUL the past several months, but it didn't fgeel like my Lyme awful, it was kind of different. Similar but different.
Went to my doc and because of my age he ran a full female hormone panel. I was hoping to see I was well on my way to the big M, but noooooo. I am heading there but it may still be awhile, extrogen levels were just fined. BUT progesterone was way low.
The effects of estrogen dominance are very similar to Lyme so it took me quite some time to figure out what the heck was happening. After the good news, NOT I came home and did some research.
One of the fascinating things I found was that prgesterone deficency causes magnesium depletion. Well isn't that just great for us, as if we don't have enough problems with that already. I can't seem to get enough magnesium, maybe this is why.
I was started on progesterone 3 days ago, and I can not begin to tell you how different my body feels. In the first day I dropped probably an inch or two around my waist. I am still feeling kind of crappy toward the afternoon, but I suppose it is the adjustment, and hopefully I will level out in a cycle or two.
Having Lyme everything about us gets wacked out and I have a feeling estrogen dominance has been a problem for me maybe even when I was in my early 30s.
Having learned what I have, even if you aren't old enough to be considered perimenopausle for the normals whcih we aren't, ask to have your hormone levels looked at.
I am anxious to see if I can hang on to some of this magnesium now. Below is an article that explains what I am talking about. Marnie, would love your input. ======================================
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Estrogen Dominance and Mental Health by Dr Igor Tabrizian Taken from his book Nutritional Medicine: Fact & Fiction
Introduction by Christine Sutherland of the Lifeworks Group, Perth, Western Australia
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Since discovering the work of Safe Harbor, we began to arrive at a much greater appreciation of the medical causes or medical influences on mental disorders, or seeming mental disorders. We then commenced a search to locate a qualified medical practitioner with the depth and breadth of biochemical knowledge and applications which we required to assist us to provide the best possible care for our clients.
We found Dr Igor Tabrizian, a general practitioner in Perth, Western Australia, specializing in nutritional investigation and treatment. Dr Tabrizian is leading the way to the practice of what I call "sane medicine": away from inappropriate pharmacotherapy and toward an informed and intelligent investigation and treatment of the patient's unique biochemistry.
I have a personal reason for my commitment to Dr Tabrizian's work. When you read the excerpt from his book, printed below, you will see his description of a typical example of the effects of Estrogen dominance. When I first read it I cried: from both sadness and rage. My own history is very much like that one: losing 6 babies, gall bladder removed in an emergency operation aged only 33, severe post-natal psychosis after the birth of a female baby and total inability to bond, and thyroid malfunction. And none of it needed to happen. What should have been glaringly obvious was completely overlooked. And how could it be any other way? This stuff is not taught to doctors in medical school. The only comprehensive biochemistry or pharmacotherapy they learn comes straight from the pharmaceutical companies.
Medicine must get sane. Doctors must be taught thorough biochemistry. We need to promote the work of doctors like Igor Tabrizian because they are true champions of health.
Nutritional Medicine: Fact & Fiction Dr Igor Tabrizian
"Warning: This book contains explicit biochemical pathways and therefore is not suitable for doctors." Dr Igor Tabrizian
Chapter 8
Strangers in the night: Xenoestrogens and health.
What is Estrogen dominance? This refers to the balance of Estrogen and progesterone. In a normal menstrual cycle (see Fig 1 - not shown in this extract) Estrogen is the dominant hormone up until ovulation day (usually day 14). Then progesterone is the dominant hormone until the period. Progesterone rises to increase the store of Magnesium, Zinc and Vitamin B6. It also brings down the copper, which has gradually risen to a mid-cycle peak. Overall there is no net gain of copper, if progesterone kicks in properly. If there is a lack of Progesterone (see Fig 2 - not shown in this extract), then Magnesium, Zinc and B6 tend to be low and copper tends to rise.
Another example is the oral contraceptive pill. The Estrogens in these pills do have Estrogenic effects, but the progesterone (being synthetic) tends not to have true progesterone effect (see Fig 4 - not shown in this extract). Another version of Estrogen dominance. This explains why zinc and magnesium fall and why copper rises while on the OCP (oral contraceptive pill).
[ 18. September 2006, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Jellybelly ]
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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kelmo
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Thank you so much for that post. With the stress of this disease, the poor progesterone hormone gets gobbled up first thing. Estrogen is good, but not when it doesn't have natural progesterone to oppose it.
I have a CD called The Power of Progesterone if anyone would like a copy. I have permission by the author to distribute burned copies. Even the MEN should listen to it. That's why they are having so many prostate problems.
Marnie
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posted
Estrogen and testosterone come FROM cholesterol. Breast cancer AND prostate cancer (DNA damage to the cells) follow the cholesterol and glycolysis pathways. Sound familiar?
If the body is breaking down "excess" cholesterol, it would come as no surprise that those hormome levels rise.
Harmful or an attempt to find another route to rid the infection?
And...find the connections between estrogen levels and gluten intolerance and multiple myeloma (recessive genes can activate if signaled by a neurotransmitter).
7. ``generally the level of TNF increases with aging. Lactic acid and unsaturated fats and hypoxia stimulate increased formation of TNF.
Estrogen increases production of nitric oxide systemically, and nitric oxide can stimulate TNF formation. When oxygen and the correct nutrients are available, the hypermetabolism produced by TNF could be reparative (K. Fukushima, et al., 1999), rather than destructive.''
(Original website would not link. Above website- diabetes in control - says the same.)
If, due to a Mg deficiency (Mg and Ca are needed to make HEALTHY antibodies), then the body has to find another way, other proteins...it looks to chose TNF alpha.
posted
If I understand this correctly, this could possibly be an explanation of WHY I always feel worse during my periods.
On top of the cramps, etc, I feel like I'm herxing during my periods, regardless of whether I am "supposed" to be herxing or not.
This has been true pre-abx, too.
I daydream of just being able to go somewhere, have them put me into a coma, fixing everything, and then waking up better.
Dream on...
Hayley
-------------------- "Data over dogma, Evidence over egos, Patients over politics" -- one smart dude from Missouri Posts: 112 | From TN USA | Registered: Nov 2005
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Marnie
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Lots of reasons why Mg is dropping/being "eliminated" via urine.
A MAJOR problem is spirochetes ferment sugar to ethanol.
This is doing MAJOR damage to several organs.
A liver enzyme called P450 2E1 is impacted.
This is very serious.
It looks to be way overproduced too (so is TNF alpha).
Do you understand how Flagyl WORKS?
There are other things that INactivate this potentially dangerous enzyme.
Back to estrogen...
"Estrogens have a role in calcium balance, and women past the menopause have been the most frequent victims of the disease.
Estrogen helps keep calcium in your bones.
Estrogen
Estrogens are multi-functional hormones, and one of their functions involves the bones. The calcium-hormones mentioned above induce circulation of calcium from the blood into the bones and vice versa, `pumping' the calcium around. Estrogens are the brakes on this system to minimize erosion. (extra calcium is the gas-pedal)"...
Some, needed and beneficial...too much, not good. Like everything in life!
IMO...we have to "lower the shield". STOP VLDL release from the liver which is combining with calcium to form the plaques that line the arteries and lymph vessels.
Hit this disease from the cholesterol angle. INactivate HMG CoA reductase.
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northstar
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Pantethine is a coenzyme A precursor. I use it in conjunction with pantothenic acid and molybdenum for ethanol from candida.
Would this grouping offset the coenzyme A reducatase?
(I also do benfotiamine, folic, biotin, b12 methyl) plus base multi.vit, and base multi minerals)....and mag , of course!
N.
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Marnie
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CoQ10 in short supply?
HMG-CoA reductase in the early steps of its synthesis in the mevalonate pathway. This same biosynthetic pathway is also shared by CoQ10.
Darn...so many enzymes, so many nutrient interactions!
The cytochrome P450 2E1 enzyme (CYP2E1) is responsible for the metabolic activation of nitrosamines.
[ 17. September 2006, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
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Jellybelly
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posted
This issue of Progesterone may also have some effect on men. There are actually progesterone creams specifically for men out there.
It seems to be a common occurance for women who have autoimmune type illnesses inclucing Lyme to see a decrease in all symptoms while pregnant. Progesterone may be the reason why. When pregnant, progestereone rises VERY high. Here is a interesting little abstract from Pub-Med about pregnant mice with autoimmune issues and progesterone.
Gestational Attenuation of Lyme Arthritis Is Mediated by Progesterone and IL-41 Manuel H. Moro*, Johannes Bjornsson, Eric V. Marietta*, Erik K. Hofmeister*, Jeffrey J. Germer*, Elizabeth Bruinsma*, Chella S. David* and David H. Persing, Departments of * Immunology and Laboratory Medicine and Pathology, Mayo Foundation, Rochester, MN 55905; and Infectious Disease Research Institute and Corixa Corporation, Seattle Life Sciences Center, Seattle, WA 98104
Infection of different strains of laboratory mice with the agent of Lyme disease, Borrelia burgdorferi, results in arthritis, the severity of which has been correlated with the dominance of Th1 cytokines. In this study, we demonstrate that changes in B. burgdorferi-specific immunologic responses associated with pregnancy can alter the outcome of Lyme arthritis in mice. Whereas nonpregnant female C3H mice consistently developed severe Lyme arthritis, pregnant mice had a marked reduction in arthritis severity that was associated with a slight reduction in IFN- and markedly increased levels of IL-4 production by B. burgdorferi-specific T cells. Similar reductions in arthritis severity and patterns of cytokine production were observed in nonpregnant, progesterone-implanted mice. Ab neutralization of IL-4 in progesterone-implanted mice resulted in severe arthritis. Our results are consistent with the known shift toward Th2 cytokine expression at the maternal-fetal interface, and are the first to show a pregnancy-related therapeutic effect in an infectious model.
==============================================
There also seems to be a worsening on a very calcuable basis, and every 28 days seems to be a REAL common number of days that the symptoms cycle. HELLLOOOO could this be it. Whether it be 25 days or 28 days or 32 days, progesterone drops, right before a period begins and we feel terrible. So what if constant low levels of progesterone due to this LD crap keeps us feeling horrible, yet another viscious circle.
This from Mercola: "The decline of both estrogen and progesterone at the end of the menstrual cycle is associated with the worsening of the patient's Lyme symptoms."
In my case estrogen was entirely normal, it was the progesterone that was totally out of whack. Often estrogen is the only hormone to have attention payed to it. Maybe we need to look closer at progesterone levels in balancing out our systems.
I used a cream for several years that I got at the health food store. Now I am almost 50 and that is not enough. I can't tell you how much better I feel every day since starting progesterone.
Even if you are to young for perimenopause, think again. We aren't normal. Many of us are major coffee drinkers, did you know coffee raises estrogen sky high if your are a chronic heavy consumer. web page
12. Her chronic high coffee and subsequent tea intake for 30 years further exacerbated estrogen dominance. Reports had proven that women who consumed more than one cup of coffee a day had significantly higher levels of estrogen during the early follicular phase of their menstrual cycle. Those who consumed at least 500 mg of caffeine daily, the equivalent of four or five cups of coffee a day had nearly 70 percent more estrogen than women who consumed less than 100 mg of caffeine daily. Black tea contains about 40 mg of caffeine per 8 ounces, but Jane is not aware of that. While herbal tea ( such as chamomile tea)contains no caffeine, black tea is similar to coffee, only less potent.
Then I think we all know about soft plastic bottles. How many of us consume our massive amounts of water out of soft plastic bottles????? Or the cloudy soft jugs???? Estrogen, estrogen, estrogen.
Our systems are fragile, we need to really balance them out....Guys too, how much coffee do you consume? How much food do you consume that has been sitting in those soft plastic containers just leaching the estrogen into our food. I was looking at the store, just about everything comes in those soft plastic containers anymore.
How many have a chubby middle? I have always had a chubby middle, even when I was anorexic thin. I never had a waist.Then in the last several months when I have been feeling like I was relapsing, my middle has just been swelling all around. symptoms of ESTROGEN DOMINANCE. Guys.....man boobs, chubby middles?
[ 18. September 2006, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Jellybelly ]
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I have been on progesterone for years. It was the only birth control pill that did not give me problems during perimenopause. (I don't use it for birth control, I've had a tubal ligation) The best benefit I see is that I stopped having periods! I have not yet gone through menopause either, but do not have any more hot flashes, night sweats... Love the stuff!
-------------------- "Few of us can do great things, but all of us can do small things with great love". Mother Theresa
While searching for possible answers to my dd's problems, I did find some interesting info on a website about hormones and things like just because a test says your level is normal, doesn't mean it's your normal level. It's all in the interpretation of the tests sometimes.
Anyway I asked four dr's to test her hormones, not just the familiar female ones either, I had a list! All said take her to a Gyno for testing (although the dr's website I read said even if they test, they might not interpret them correctly)
The Gyno did not want to even run the tests, just try birth control and see what happens. At first I was a little mad, but she doesn't take them the way most people do. She skips the placeboes and basically hasn't had a period for a couple of months.
I know lyme cycles, but I had noticed her lyme cycles seemed to also get worse during her period. So far I think the bc pills have actually helped some, but new symptoms are getting worse every day, so who can really say. What will happen when she has to have a period?
Guess I will call gyno back and say OK they may have helped some, it that enough medically necessary info to get ins co to pay for the tests?
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kelmo
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My daughter is using 20mg of bio-identical progesterone for several years. That may explain why she does not need to supplement magnesium.
Progesterone sheaths the nerves. You won't get this progesterone in a birth control pill. That is "progestin", a synthetic form.
Ladies, please head this advice. Having your progesterone levels balanced brings everything else into balance.
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klutzo
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Please get tested before you just go out and buy progesterone cream.
At only 1/4 of the normal dose of the cream, my breasts blew up like balloons and hurt so bad that I would bend over to eat, they would touch the edge of the table, and I'd fly out of my chair, screaming in pain.
Also, my chocolate cravings went totally out of control. I have seen confirmation of this side-effect on Dr. Weil's web site.
A holistic doc put me on progesterone drops, and at only 1/4 dose of those, the same thing happened again. My blood hormone testing showed borderline low progesterone, but only in comparison to total estrogens. The progesterone level itself was smack dab in the center of normal ranges. I am post menopausal by 11 yrs., having gone through it quite early, courtesy of Lyme. I am 55.
My latest holistic doc says he would only treat low progesterone if it went under the borderline, since hormones are not to be fooled around with. Ironically, I was tested because I thought I had very low cortisone, in spite of my having a huge stomach ever since menopause....I figured I'd used up all my cortisone worrying about my Lyme.
Despite normal levels, I still need 880 mgs. of Mg Citrate daily.
In my case, very low DHEA turned out to be the problem. All other numbers were within normal. The moral of my story is... don't guess, test!
Klutzo
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Marnie
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From my files (note to remember which is which...osteoblasts are bone builders - see the "b"? While osteoclasts - see the "c"? destroy bone cells. We rid the old and make new cells everywhere in our body...at different times...from days to months "turnover".)
"Estrogens have a role in calcium balance, and women past the menopause have been the most frequent victims of the disease.
Estrogen helps keep calcium in your bones.
Estrogen
Estrogens are multi-functional hormones, and one of their functions involves the bones. The calcium-hormones mentioned above induce circulation of calcium from the blood into the bones and vice versa, `pumping' the calcium around. Estrogens are the brakes on this system to minimize erosion. (extra calcium is the gas-pedal)
Calcium is absorbed into the bones due to osteoblasts, which increase free phosphate level in the bones, which causes the `passive' influx of calcium to restore the calcium-phosphate ratio. The osteoblasts also compose the matrix upon which the calcium can precipitate. Deportation of calcium from the bones by osteoclasts is a more direct process.
Structurally, estrogen does not stimulate osteoblasts, (9) but even inhibits osteoblast activity (10) (and number (11)) and therefore inhibits calcium influx in the bones (12) and also inhibits deportation of calcium from the bones. Thus estrogen protects the bones against excessive bone turnover and osteoblasts against apoptosis.
Estrogen prevents death of osteoblasts, in particular, because osteoblasts are more sensitive to aging phenomena than osteoclasts. (13)
In general, this protective effect of estrogen is accredited to the decrease in deportation of calcium from the bones; the inhibitory effect of estrogen on calcium influx is ignored. But a characteristic action of estrogens on the skeleton is inhibition of longitudinal bone growth. (14)
Some claim that estrogen increases calcium influx in the bones, but this is only the case in the first six days of administration. (9)
The reason why osteoporosis risk in women is higher than in men, regardless of menopause and milk consumption, is due to monthly estrogen and PTH fluctuations;
Estrogen levels in women strongly fluctuate monthly.
As estrogen level is at its lowest around menstruation, PTH level is at its highest, increasing deportation of calcium from the bones (15) and uptake of calcium into the bones. Thus lifetime bone turnover is, on the average, higher in women.
The calcium-hormones function like a fire brigade; when little calcium is being consumed, they aren't activated that much, which is good: no fire.
When too much calcium is consumed, the calcium-hormones are very active, stimulating absorption of calcium into the bones, and subsequently deportation and excretion. The more this processed is accelerated, the more the bones erode.
After calcium is absorbed, calcitonine (or thyrocalcitonine) inhibits deportation of calcium from the bones, while the calcium automatically keeps pouring in. Calcitonine also stimulates excretion of calcium through the urine.
So, calcitonine primarily lowers blood-calcium level, and absorption of calcium into the bones is one way to reach that goal. Absorbing calcium into the bones certainly is not the purpose of calcitonine, for it stimulates excretion of calcium too.
Due to the action of calcitonine, the increased blood-calcium level decreases, inhibiting calcitonine release and stimulating secretion of two other calcium-hormones; PTH and calcitriol.
Parathyroid hormone (PTH) stimulates uptake of calcium into the bones (1) (and therefore osteoblast apoptosis (2)) and deportation of calcium from the bones (23), and inhibits excretion of calcium, generally increasing a low blood-calcium level. Logically, elevated PTH level accelerates ageing of the bones; see hyperparathyroidism
Low levels of PTH prevent bone loss. (3) PTH also stimulates secretion of calcitriol;
Calcitriol (1,25 dihydroxycholecalciferol = composed of vit. D); The direct influence of calcitriol is increasing the uptake of dietary calcium into the blood, but also the uptake of calcium into the bones (4) (Calcitriol therefore also stimulates osteoblast activity (22) and thus increases osteoblasts apoptosis (5)) and deportation of calcium from the bones. (23)
Calcitriol however also inhibits secretion of PTH. And because PTH much stronger than calcitriol stimulates the uptake of calcium into the bones and the subsequent deportation, supplementary calcitriol can, per saldo, in fact strongly decrease uptake of calcium into the bones and subsequent deportation. (6) Since calcitriol also increases intestinal calcium absorption, this however also strongly increases blood-calcium level (7).
Too much calcium in the blood can precipitate in the arteries, joints and ligaments and kills muscle cells (since muscle cells can only contract by deporting calcium outside the muscle-cells, which is harder if the blood contains more calcium). Too much calcitriol / vitamin D can cause arteriosclerosis, bone-deformation (8), muscle cramps and fibromyalgia.
One of the key ways in which the body gets rid of estrogen is via attaching glucuronic acid to the estrogen in the liver and then excreting this complex in the bile. Glucuronidase is a bacterial enzyme that uncouples (breaks) the bond between excreted estrogen and glucuronic acid.
Not surprising is the finding that excess glucuronidase activity is associated with an increased cancer risk, particularly estrogen-dependent breast cancer.
The activity of this enzyme is increased when the diet is high in fat and low in fiber. The level of glucuronidase activity may be one of the key underlying factors explaining why certain dietary factors cause breast cancer and why other dietary factors are preventive.
The activity of glucuronidase be reduced by establishing a proper bacterial flora by eating a diet high in plant foods and supplementing the diet with the "friendly bacteria" Lactobacillus acidophilus and Bifidobacterium bifidum.
Other dietary factors which can dramatically reduce the activity of this enzyme are the consumption of onion and garlic, and foods high in glucaric acid like apples, brussel sprouts, broccoli, cabbage, and lettuce. Glucaric acid in a pill form, calcium D-glucarate may turn out to be the "magic bullet" in the prevention of breast cancer, especially in women who have already battled breast cancer.
Preliminary research is quite encouraging.5 Currently, women with a history of breast cancer are prescribed the drug tamoxifen. This drug is associated with numerous side effects and is quite controversial in its overall effectiveness. In contrast, calcium D-glucarate is completely safe and, if preliminary results hold true, more effective.
Calcium D-glucarate is currently being investigated at the Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York. It is just entering the health food market as well.
[ 10. November 2006, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
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Jellybelly
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It has been 3 months for me, and I thought I would update, since someone brought it to the top again.
I have lost a massive amount of weight around the middle. This may be a combo of the the Prometrium/progesterone and or the anti yeast therapy and yeast diet I am on.
I have noticed nearly right off, a lessor need for magnesium. Not that I don't still take at least 800 mgs a day, but that amount is stopping the leg cramps.....finally.
As Klutzo mentioned, it is a good idea, to get your hormones checked out. I have had several checked and many were off balance. My adrenals aren't producing much corstisol. I have no Melatonin, I am low on DHEA. Progesterone was low, but estrogen was within normal range.
My mood swings leveled off considerably. The negative is, PMS seems to be worse.
So far it seems to have been the right thing for me. You'll never know if your hormones are out of wack unless you get them checked out though.
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Sue vG
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Since the hot flashes started getting in my way a year ago, I've turned to Emerita progesterone cream. They sell it at Whole Foods for about $27 for a month's supply.
It has eliminated the hot flashes for this 51-year-old and now that you mention it, I've been slacking on my Mg intake without repercussions.
I do plan to look into bioidenticals when this stuff ceases to be effective.
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Thanks for posting this. I had this discussion with someone else today. She let me know that it took her a good four-six months before she felt real balanced with the progesterone.
She said now that she is balanced she would never stop taking it because it has made such a difference.
I had a tough time the second month of taking it and gave up on it. I think I am going to try again because I have a lot of the symptoms of low progesterone.
The other thing this friend said is that if you find yourself supersensitive to it initially try dropping the dose a bit.
Take care!
-------------------- �Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right.� - Ezre Taft Benson Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004
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What tests do you recommend for hormones. Blood tests or salivia?
And during what point during the menstural cycle should the tests be done.
I have been taking DHEA cream and progesterone cream for almost a year and have not done any bloodwork. My insurance doesn't pay for any lab work, just office visists.
I tried to stop the progesterone cream as I hadn't noticed a difference when I started it months ago. Within a few days of stopping it, I was craiving depressed and craving sugar. I felt much better after I restarted it.
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treepatrol
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