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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Wormser reply by me

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Author Topic: Wormser reply by me
robi
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Drs. Wormser, Dattwyler and Nadelman,

You sound very rigid in your approach to medicine. How horrible this has happened to you. You know what you know and there is no room for advancement or change. What a shame.


Your arguments remind me of those who fought against the discovery that Heliobactor Pylori caused ulcers. I wonder what side of the argument you were on in that issue.

For many years the entrenched minds in the medical field thought and fought to prove that ulcers were a result of stress. You are now doing the same with Lyme Disease while many of us sit and suffer.

This article outlines what happened in the case of ulcers and h. Pylori.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/11/health/11docs.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=78520fa7044a5b8a&ex=1165899600

With research that began in the late 1970's and early 1980's Drs. Marshall and Warren set out to convince the medical world of their discovery that an infectious agent was the cause of ulcers. In October of 2005, after many years of opposition by those entrenched in old beliefs, they received the Nobel Prize.


There is a great parallel here with the lyme disease controversy. I have to wonder why you are so averse to change? Medicine should be an ongoing inquiry. We are far from knowing everything there is to know. Have you ever conducted a study on long term treatment?


Have you talked to patients suffering with chronic lyme? We were out there down the street. Perhaps you could have stopped by and found out first hand what we suffer through.

You state in your letter:

``The IDSA Lyme guidelines also cite numerous studies that have shown that the majority of patients who receive the diagnosis of "chronic Lyme disease" have never in fact had Lyme disease at any point.''

Lyme can become seronegative as it progresses. You know that. And what test are you using that can POSITIVELY EXCLUDE a diagnosis of Lyme Disease? Previously, the CDC stated that Lyme disease is a "clinical diagnosis," supported by lab testing. The new IDSA guidelines have totally turned that thinking around without sufficient evidence.

You further assert:

``In one of these studies, more than 50 percent of the misdiagnosed patients had other treatable medical disorders.''

Lyme is multi systemic and does effect many systems in the body including the immune system, the central nervous system, and the musculosketel system. After my known tick bite my previously healthy-organic-food-eating-athletic body developed various symptoms.

Perfectly healthy before Lyme, falling apart afterwards. Thyroid and other hormone deregulation occurred. Arthritis, neuropathy and myalgia ravaged me. Can these be diagnosed and treated separate from Lyme? Sure they can.


Assuming that these other conditions and symptoms are not related to the Lyme/tick bite is a bad assumption. The body acts as a whole, one part effects the others.

Another disease that attacks the immune function is HIV. As we know, HIV itself cannot be dismissed as part of the root cause of the ensuing illnesses. That kind of limited thinking is simply not logical. Just because a person has Lyme does not mean they do not have other disorders that are diagnosable and treatable.


Also, these other medical conditions can be, and I believe are, brought on by the weakness and imbalance that Lyme creates in the infected body.

Your guidelines are harmful and should be withdrawn.

[ 10. December 2006, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: robi ]

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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bettyg
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sorry, but i can't read your response; paragraphs too lengthy; can't follow so giving up.

also i believe someone started a thread about this, and your reply would be appropriate there in one spot vs. scattered all over board.

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robi
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I broke it up ........ hope it helps. I did not post in the other thread for my own reasons....... enough said


robi

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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CaliforniaLyme
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Great reply(*)!*)*)!

--------------------
There is no wealth but life.
-John Ruskin

All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer

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timaca
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Good letter Robi!

I suppose we need to hear from Tincup (Oh Tincup, where are you??) as to whether or not you should send your letter on to Dr. W. (I have a letter waiting in the wings as well).

His address is:

New York Medical College
Section of Infectious Diseases
Munger Pavilion-Room 245
Westchester Medical Center
Valhalla, NY 10595

[email protected]

Timaca

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trails
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way to go robi!

thanks for saying what my jello brain cant right now.

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seibertneurolyme
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Very good analogy comparing Lyme research to ulcers. Also, I totally agree that one can have multiple diagnoseable illnesses which may or may not be caused directly or indirectly by Lyme and other tick-borne illnesses.

If you are planning to use this as a letter to the editor, I think it may be too long -- pretty sure that most newspapers limit letters to either 200 or 250 words.

Very good effort.

Did notice one typo -- in the paragraph beginning -- With research that began... -- there discovery should be their discovery.

Bea Seibert

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Meg
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Great Job Robi!!

I hope they will read and heed your advice [Big Grin]

--------------------
Success Stories---Treatment Guidelines

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lymednva
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Bravo, Robi!!! [woohoo]

Very well said. [Big Grin]

I agree with Bea that for a letter to the editor it would need to be condensed. If you decide to go that route let me know and I'll be happy to help you cut it down and edit it.

I used to do that for my ex when we were together. I'd much rather do it for you!

--------------------
Lymednva

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robi
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Thanks for the woohoos! I used to be able to write something like this quickly ........ now it takes all day.

Bea I fixed the typ-o...good eye.

The ulcer comparison is not mine originally. Dr. Z used it in her defense. I remembered it ..... which for me os almost as good as being the originator.

Yes, LymedNVA I would gladly accept editing help. I want to here from TC as to whether or not I should send this in.

robi

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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northstar
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If I may recommend:
Also:

cc: to their bosses (heads of departments?) and
to the big guys at the hospital and
to the big guys at the medical school (dean, etc).
and to the newspaper where the IDSA"party line"
article first appeared. They have repeated
those words again and again....not too original,
and not too deep, either.

why waste a great letter just on the perpetrators (sp?) when you can let the upper echelon know that we know.

And the perpetrators, then will know that the upper echelon is hearing about them, too.

Of course, I assume that with something this controversial, the upper echelon knows exactly
what is going on.


Northstar

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dmc
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awesome letter. wish I could right tha well.
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luvs2ride
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Kudos for Robi!

This is so well said and said with cool, level responses with no hint of anger or emotional outbursts.

Great job!

Luvs

--------------------
When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace.

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Tincup
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Well Sam.. you done good! REAL good!

I like the focus on medical facts rather than emotion.. even though we would all like to run him through the ringer a time or two.

Shows a lot of passion and so much education! Actually... I didn't know you were this smart! I'm impresssed!

And the effort must have take a long while. I see a good deal of research too.. and carefully worded phrases.

Yes, Sam... I think we can publish this one.. no problem.

But I am not sure we should call you Samuel Clements anymore. You have risen to bigger and better things with this work of art.

Why don't we call you ... Mark Twain?

[Big Grin]

Good job my friend!!! And THANK YOU for taking your precious time to do it!

YES YES YES!!!

[woohoo]

[woohoo]

[woohoo]

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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trueblue
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Wow, that's fantastic, Robi!  -

Well done! [kiss]

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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robi
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Yeah, thanks TB ..... I know, I think I musta channeled someone else while writing this. Maybe I am channeling TC ..... that's one explanation.

robi

--------------------
Now, since I put reality on the back burner, my days are jam-packed and fun-filled. ..........lily tomlin as 'trudy'

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cordor
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I, as a matter of fact, I happen to be related to Samuel Clements (for real, yes.....Mark Twain)and in my humble opnion, that is one excellent letter. GREAT JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------
Corinne

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Tincup
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Cordor said.. "I happen to be related to Samuel Clements (for real, yes.....Mark Twain) and in my humble opnion, that is one excellent letter. GREAT JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Now I've been known to pull a leg or two here and there for fun.. but is this true?

WOW! Pretty cool if it is.. VERY cool actually!

But if it isn't.. ya sure got me!

[Big Grin]

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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wiserforit
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Now that's what I'm talkin' about!

Fine Letter, robi!

The words work!

Thank you so much for your calm, intelligent clarity!

wiserforit
[woohoo]
[woohoo]

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trueblue
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quote:
Originally posted by robi:
Yeah, thanks TB ..... I know, I think I musta channeled someone else while writing this. Maybe I am channeling TC ..... that's one explanation.

robi

Nah, I think you're just this good!

When I grow up I want to be like you and TC. [Big Grin]

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by trueblue:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by robi:
[qb]
When I grow up I want to be like you and TC. [Big Grin]

OK, let's face it trueblue....It ain't happenin'!! The part about you growing up!! [lol]

Good job, robi! [Smile]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Michelle M
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Go on with your bad self, Robi!!

[woohoo]

Michelle

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trueblue
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quote:
Originally posted by Lymetoo:
OK, let's face it trueblue....It ain't happenin'!! The part about you growing up!! [lol]

*looks around*
Is my peter pan complex showing? [lol]

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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bettyg
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robi, thanks so much for breaking it up for me/others.

w o w !! terrific letter in hitting so many important points; great job robi; proud of you nailing it so well for us all. [group hug] [kiss]

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lymednva
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You've inspired me. I'm working on a letter, but it pales incomparison to yours! [bow]

--------------------
Lymednva

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Chickadee
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Wow..great letter!!! [Smile]
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Foggy
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Bravo Robi!

I must reiterate: When they develop something safer & more efficacious, then there's something to discuss. Until then, this is all we have & they have nothing better/safer to offer.

I'd also like to know what they would do if they or a loved one had lyme, was treated, ruled out all other conditions, & their sxs persisted? Concurrently, their life savings evaporated as they fought for disability.

Would the guidlines still apply...

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Tincup
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I've heard from several others that this letter is very good! And much needed.

Just wanted you to know, Robi.

And you goof balls make me laugh!

[Big Grin]

--------------------
www.TreatTheBite.com
www.DrJonesKids.org
www.MarylandLyme.org
www.LymeDoc.org

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Tincup:

And you goof balls make me laugh!

[Big Grin]

Trueblue is the goofball....not MEEEEE!

 -
true and blue

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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healthywealthywise
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Hey, I'd rather be called a goofball than a baboon!!! [lol]
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trueblue
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quote:
Originally posted by Lymetoo:
quote:
Originally posted by Tincup:

And you goof balls make me laugh!

[Big Grin]

Trueblue is the goofball....not MEEEEE!

 -
true and blue

[Razz] Hey, a little seriousity on Robi's thread; if you will!!!

She's brilliant she might not want to hang around with us umm... um... slightly dim bulbs.
 -


edited to add: Ya got a point there, TTPH! [lol]

--------------------
more light, more love
more truth and more innovation

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TNJanet
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Great letter! I am so terrible at writing at the moment, but a thought occurred to me for anyone who could write about it as another Wormser rebuttal.

I have often heard of Lyme in it's spherocete (sp?) form as very much like that of Syphilis. For those with early syphilis, immediate treatment with antibiotics can "cure" it as far as I know.

Symptoms of early syph usually includes a chancre sore or other problems in the genital area (which gets one's attention pretty quickly I would imagine.

There is a quick and accurate test for Syph. which (excuse me dear male Lymies) was probably invented by a man...."not on MY peepee!"

However, lets just say for the sake of argument that the early symptoms are ignored and a person has no more symptoms.

So a person goes on with their lives until BAM they begin getting worse symptoms many years later. Would doctors say they had Post Syphilis SYNDROME?

Again, no treatment allowed because there is NO SUCH THING as Post Syphilis Syndrome. So, person limps through a couple more years until, BAM, insanity and death.

I think the allegory here is important. But I can't write well enough to send any letter to an editor or to the ducks in NY. Anyone willing to think this out and write something that makes sense?

I promise that after long-term ABX TX and getting some of my brain back that I will do more writing myself.

Just throwing this out there and see who "catches" it.

[Wink]
Janet

--------------------
DISCLAIMER:
No information presented above should be considered medical advice or take the place of advice given by a medical professional. Links to other sites are provided merely for ease of research.

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Lymetoo
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quote:
Originally posted by TNJanet:

So a person goes on with their lives until BAM they begin getting worse symptoms many years later. Would doctors say they had Post Syphilis SYNDROME?

Again, no treatment allowed because there is NO SUCH THING as Post Syphilis Syndrome. So, person limps through a couple more years until, BAM, insanity and death.

You got it!!

True....I'm just keeping her post "UP THERE!" [Smile]

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

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Foggy
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What about Post legionnaires disease or post TB which may require a patient to be on multiple lt abx?

No chasm between MDs about the lt treatment of these infectious diseases.

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