posted
It seems that the symptoms affecting Chronic Lymies are the consequence of an overactive immune system. They are not caused by Bb, but rather our immune system failure to irradicate it. Sort of thing that hapens with autoimmune disease. I am not saying that Chronic Lyme is an autoimmune illness--antigenic variation, hiding in cells, cyst and cell wall deficient forms, and hiding in tissues that ABX don't reach easily account for its effects on us. So the question remains-why boost the immune system when it state of overdrive causes all the terrible symptoms.
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posted
I don't know but my LLMD told me my immune system tested out to be weak.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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cantgiveupyet
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posted
i was told my immune took a huge hit. My white blood cells now equal the red blood cells.
Is there a test that will show if your immune is overactive...how would a person know
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Dave6002
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posted
quote: My white blood cells now equal the red blood cells
Wow!
You were not serious when saying this?
Red blood cells are about one thousand times of white blood cells.
High numbers of WBCs (leukocytosis) may indicate:
* infectious diseases * inflammatory disease (such as rheumatoid arthritis or allergy) * leukemia * severe emotional or physical stress * tissue damage (for example, burns) * anemia
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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Greatcod
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posted
Dr. Katz at Yale had some success with immune supression in some Lyme patients. That's what prompted the question. No question but that our immune systems are weakened in the sense that they are less able to respond to other infections (my colds go on for weeks). But would strenghtening them enhance cytokine production, making me more achy? And I agrre with Cave about the complexty of the immune systems. One of the few good things coming out of my Lyme is an apprecation for the wonderous complexity of our bodies.
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posted
Steroids depress the immune system. Is this likely to help lyme patients?
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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cantgiveupyet
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posted
Dave6002- My lab results showed both WBC and RBC at 4.40
In the past WBC was always a tad higher.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
I guess steriod treatment is supposed to be harmful to Lyme people, but I don't know why. I swiped the quoted stuff below from Lyme Info. I can't find any herbal immunosurpressants, so I guess steriods are about it. I still am not sure why we would want to boost our immune systems. It does make sense to try herbals that directly attack the pathogen, complement the immune system, as opposed to boosting it. That's what the ABX do, I think.
"Pain can have a damaging impact on the immune system, adding to the importance of effectively treating it. Pain management is absolutely essential to those with compromised immune systems, because the pain experience further reduces the immune reaction. If you have Lyme disease pain, you are less likely to be active, to sleep properly, or to eat properly because your mind is constantly trying to fight off the pain response. There is little time for anything else, and it is consuming."
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5dana8
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Before treatment my immune panals where below normal.
After 3 years of TX they have returned to normal. It's important to have a strong immune system when you have any kind of chronic disease.
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
When I had a root canal last December the dentist told me that all dental pain is caused by inflammation. So I kindly declined the idea of taking NSAIDs and took 10 Vitalzym capsules. I had no pain. Guess I got lucky.
If I had to resort to pain meds, I think I'd go for vicodin. Pain is really tough and I know I'm a wimp, so it's hard to say what I'd do if it got really bad.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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Dave6002
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posted
C.G,
One of my test results from Quest was:
WBC was 3.2 Thousand of ul; RBC was 4.45 Million of ul.
So you may have noticed that the numbers are close but they have different units (one thousand times of difference) at the end.
Check your blood work again and see if they have different units.
If not you really need to worry about why WBC so high.
Dave
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
mine was done at labcorp, not sure if they show percentage, I will have to check.
Dana , i am curious too, what other tests you had done.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Greatcod: So the question remains-why boost the immune system when it state of overdrive causes all the terrible symptoms.
In general I agree that boosting an already overactive immune system won't help.
It's the Th1 side of the immune system that's in overdrive (at the expense of the Th2 side). Th1 should be killing off the Lyme, but since the Lyme can hide within the immune system itself, Th1 can't finish the job.
Steroids and other immune system mediators like vitamin D relieve symptoms by turning down immune system activity and the concomitant, damaging excess inflammation, but of course this only allows the infection to proliferate.
What you want is a way to reduce the inflammation without turning down the immune system function. The MP, for example, uses Benicar to accomplish that. There are probably other ways to do this as well.
Meanwhile, you want something to weaken the bacteria so that the immune system can wipe them out. That's how abx help. Unfortunately, this is a long, slow process.
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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It sounds to me like "boosting" your immune system.
My daughter felt the best she has in the last year after having the vaccine neutralization. She didn't have the usual reaction in the office, but shortly after in the car on the way home. We are going to repeat it next llmd visit. Will let you know the results.
Anybody else?
Mommak
Posts: 242 | From Mississippi | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I'm not really sure how this relates, but each fall/winter (definately pre-Lyme)I used to get head colds,2-3 a yr., that would often last 6-8 wks. each. I had Bronchitis once too.
In Dec. of '04 I was diagnosed with Lyme and began treatment. I haven't had any type of cold since and because I wasn't sick during the fall of '04 that would make it 2 1/2 yrs. since I had a cold. I have had days when I was headachey and didn't feel great, but no colds/flus at all.
My lifestyle hasn't changed at all as I was never sick enough with Lyme not to go out and do. But I feel like since the abx and supplements, my overall system is working a lot better.
I never did any steroids or other immune suppressing drugs and have tried to focus on supplying me system with a broad spectrum of the basics plus.
Posts: 175 | From ma. | Registered: Aug 2005
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
Aiden 414 wrote (from Momaka's post) "The vaccine neutralization is designed to calm down the immune system so there is no longer a hyper-reactive response to an old virus or antibody." This is an example of immuno-supression that seems to work in quieting the overacting immune system..Kind of thing I had in mind in starting the topic. Worth trying for some of us.
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quote:Originally posted by lucy: In Dec. of '04 I was diagnosed with Lyme and began treatment. I haven't had any type of cold since and because I wasn't sick during the fall of '04 that would make it 2 1/2 yrs. since I had a cold. I have had days when I was headachey and didn't feel great, but no colds/flus at all.
Most lymies report a similar lack of colds. The Th1 side of our immune system is what attacks foreign invaders such as common cold virii. Since Th1 is overactive for us, it kills off these invaders before they can significantly multiply, that is, before they can cause us to feel sick(er).
Posts: 727 | From USA | Registered: Mar 2006
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JimBoB
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posted
MOST people today, regardless of where they live and IF they are in the "mainstream" of modern society, have a screwed up immune system. As is the rest of our bodies.
MOST of the food we eat, and water we drink is modified and/or contaminated by modern "science". Mark that "big business".
We don't need to "boost" our immune systems; what we need to do is bring it back up to par, or the way it was designed to work.
Lyme D. hinders that as do abx for the most part. But we do need to do something to reduce the Ketes to a managable level, so our immune systems can have a chance to build up to a "normal" level for US.
That is WHY the proper herbs "help" us in getting better, and certainly "feeling" better. Then once we get to a point where things are MORE normal, our immune systems can work better at keeping them there.
5dana8
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posted
my last set of immune panal where: Lymphocyte subset panal 4-
% CD4(helper cells) Absolute CD4+ % CD8 (suppressore T cells) Absolue CD 8%+ cells Helper/suppressor Rattio Absolute Lymphgocytes
Some other studies that where done last where: CD3 circulating immune complexes &CD3 Immune complex & immune complex dectection by C1Q bind Immune3 complexing
*all well within normal range -----------------------------------------------=-
My first set of immune panals where:
Immunoglobins A/E/G/M serum: Immunoglobins G, Quant, seurm -low side of normal Immunoglobins A, Quant-55- normal is 70-400 Immunoglobins M, Quant, Serum
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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