posted
just letting you all know what that means..it means that at some point and nobody knows when you either take to much or to long a duration..and bam it destroys the mitochondria of the cell..this is the very scary part as you will not know the extent for the next three to 4 weeks as you slowly deteriorate...the cells that have fallen apart and are dieing..they are not dead right away..so you at first think that you are in the clear..common problems are heart rate and blood pressure,breathing or respitory arrest,dizzyness,eye problems and ear problems..the artemisinin targets a very small part of the brain stem called the trapezoid nucleus!this is not a joke as you can die from this herb..it is not supposed to be used for what you all are using it and in fact may do more harm then you ever thought possible...so I have warned everyone about this very very toxic and potent herb that is used in only an extreme emergency..now that I have told you that there is an artemisinin that does not have the neuro problems I think is is called artimsione..so I am not trying to scare anyone who is on it but I want you to know the real danger...it is not fda approved because of the toxicity..there are alternatives.. eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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tabbytamer
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3159
posted
eric,
I would like more info if you have it.
Any indication as to how long "too long" of taking it is? And/or at what doses?
You can PM me if you would prefer, or post here. Either way.
"Artemisinin and two synthetic derivatives, artemether and sodium artesunate, were evaluated in the l970's. A number of the tropical countries have conducted trials. In China in 1979, wherein 2,099 patients infected with P. viva and P. falciparum, Artemisinin had good therapeutic effects and improved or cured all patients. Furthermore, the treatment with Artemisinin was without any obvious side effects. Artemisinin is also effective in cerebral malaria."
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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You are not the only person who has reported scary reactions to artimisinin. Some people seem to tolerate it , and others have frightening neuro symptoms that last for weeks. I believe MariaA 's boyfriend had bizarre symptoms according to her post .
Jimbob felt that the artemesia annua ( which is not an isolate , but is the actual herb ) gave him better results . It seems to have less risk.
Who knows why these problems occurred ? Some people have no serious reactions . What brand did you use ?
posted
those statistics that you mention are bull..you need to type in the "toovey toxicity letters"..he is the international expert in artemisisnin...he is telling the truth..if you believe it is safe then by all means keep going..but you may get into more trouble then you ever thought possible.. eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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The truth is that he doesn't have any solid info to back up what he claims, what he constantly posts on the board in his weekly Artemisinin Bashing Campaign.
This guy must have a hundred posts on how bad Art is for everyone, yet he hasn't posted even one article or study on it's toxicity. His story changes weekly, and the info that he spews out is what he hears from the different Dr's that he seeks out, or what he interprets from reading other peoples bad experiences from Art. And by the way, these are very few and far between. In most cases it has been proven to be a case of too much too soon, and not a problem with toxicity from the herb.
What he claims is "The Truth," is only his very onesided and limited opinion. Whenever he is challenged as to the validity of his statements, he backs off for a little while, and then pops back up with another warning.
Enough already polar bash. Give it a rest forever! As it has been said many many times before in rebutals to his slanderous claims, do your own research before you take his warnigs seriously.
Art is a very safe herb. Cancer patients take it for up to a year continuously at higher doses than what we use. To say that lyme/Babs patients are using it in a way that it shouldn't be used is nonsense! I suppose that in your opinion it shouldn't be used for Malaria or parasites either.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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The thing that is peculiar is that you experienced these symptoms after taking what would be considered only a small dose for a short period of time. Your experience is unusual, most people tolerate it pretty well.
It is obviously not something you tolerate, so you certainly do not want to take it.
Some people have used it against some cancers at doses equal to a whole bottle or more a day without any real toxicity issues. I would not recommend that, but a person with a terminal illness may have a different perspective about risks.
The problem is that for death dealing infections like Malaria, and also Babesia, there are very few choices. None are good ones.
The commonly used antimalarials are very toxic, with side effects such as severe depression ans suicide to name a couple. Some are lethal at a dose just a little above the treatment level. How about deafness?
Babesia can kill too, just not usually as quickly as Malaria can.
Risks are relative, and there is virtually nothing that is risk free. Even doing nothing has significant risks.
For many of us this ancient herb has been one of the least risky and more effective options. The alternatives unfortunately pose much greater risks.
Please don't be in such a hurry to villify it unless you have something better to offer us.
James
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by micul: The truth is that he doesn't have any solid info to back up what he claims, what he constantly posts on the board in his weekly Artemisinin Bashing Campaign
You got it. It's crazy.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by polar blast: if you believe it is safe then by all means keep going..but you may get into more trouble then you ever thought possible.. eric
No need to worry or "keep going." I no longer have babs.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
you are all so smart so I will stop here..I tryed to help you..I told you the contact for the toxicity..dont believe me then dont...I warned you... bye
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
lymetoo how did you know that you dont have babs anymore?what test did you use..I am sure you would like to tell the board about this test?that was not a smart remark as you would not know if you had it or not.. eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
micul open your ears... google the toovey toxicity letters....if he is telling you it is ...then I would say it is..he is way above your llmd.. so dont try to discredit what I am saying because I will not back down..I give you the truth.. bye
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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I think to be fair..if either of us has a scary, life threatening reaction to any drug...we are bound to be passionate about letting others know about it just in case. I had a scary experience on an ssri before and i now am very outspoken and passionate about warning people, so no one ever experiences what i did. Take it as a heads up...just like you would take an encouraging positive thumbs up remark on the Art. He has nothing to gain from his warning...and it could in fact help someone relate who might be sensitive to it as well. Just a thought. I appreciate boths sides of every idea. Whether its an herb, whether its the reliability of igenex, or whether its determining if lyme is definitely our illness, etc etc. Thats a healthy informative way of learning. Listening to both sides. And i have learned alot from both sides.
Posts: 160 | From california | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
That's exactly how I take it. A head's up to be careful and read about art as much as I can. I appreciate Eric's personal concern for his fellow lymenetters and I feel bad that Eric had such a traumatic experience on art.
Posts: 293 | From healdsburg, ca , sonoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
It is not crazy for Eric to share his experience in order to caution others of the risks of artimisinin.
I am surprised thet Lymetutu would think so , given the fact that she preaches fervently the benefits of "Xango" , a PRICEY supplement that does not have any clear role in the healing of lyme disease .
"Crazy " is perhaps a subjective matter of opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Annxyz: I am surprised thet Lymetutu would think so , given the fact that she preaches fervently the benefits of "Xango" , a PRICEY supplement that does not have any clear role in the healing of lyme disease .
I've never said it had any actions against lyme. I've only said I feel great. Kind of hard to believe I have babs if I'm feeling this good.
"pricey"?? Compared to what? Compared to the 10+ prescription drugs I no longer have to take?
I could go on and on, but you wouldn't believe me anyway.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Lymetutu, I do believe your experience is real, and enviable.
My point is Eric's experience is just as real as yours . And he is NOT the only person who has posted troubling experiences with artimisinin .
There will be people who hear your XANGO story and may benefit as you have . Other people may benefit from hearing eric's story . He is not crazy for sharing his experience .
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
I'm still not entirely convinced that the Artemisinin that Polar Blast took wasn't somehow "fake" or tainted in some way.
Artemisinin is now VERY big business, and fake or "contaminated" Art is becoming a real problem. (Sorry, I can't find the previous thread about this.)
Another patient seeing the same doc as Polar also had a very bad reaction to it, just like Polar.
It just makes me wonder about the product itself, especially since reactions to Art seem to range from extremely mild to horribly severe.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I hear you, Ann. I apologize to Eric if I've insulted him. I do believe the art could have been tainted. That is one of the only things I would consider to be true.
The reason I have my doubts is that I've been here more than 6 yrs and I've never heard anyone complain about what artemisinin did to them, other than make them herx hard.
So, perhaps that is what has happened.
[PS I didn't say eric was crazy.]
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I agree that Eric's reaction was unusual . I just read an article on the net about problems with artemesia due to the plants being sprayed with the pesticide DDT . ( YES, DDT!)
That might explain his feeling near death .
Eric , what brand did you buy this art? Who supplied you with it ?
Wasn't there another guy who had a scary reaction who was also a patient of your doctor ?
Even if the herb was not contaminated ( and I bet it was ) I still would use it cautiously , especially avoiding mixing it with andrographis or coptis . Jim Bob and others have had horrible experiences with combining it .
daystar1952
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3255
posted
I think we need to look at the past history of artemisia and artemisinin. I was told to stock up on artemisinin and store it in my freezer.I was told there may be a shortage in the future and it was hinted at that this may be due to financial/political/ideological reasons. I'm not saying that people cannot have reactions to it.
This substance does seem to bother my stomach after a certain period of time but I do think it has helped immensely.
Remember how well tryptophan worked for people with depression...then it was banned ....supposedly due to a contaminated batch? I had heard that this "contaminated batch" had been intentionally created to use an excuse to take a natural substance that cannot be patented...off the market and to create more of a monopoly. Look at all the antidepressant drugs we have now and the extent to which they are being used.
So, I guess the message is, we need to use our own judgement and intuition....along with some research (paying attention to where the research comes from) when it comes to these things
Posts: 1176 | Registered: Oct 2002
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clairenotes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10392
posted
Keep in mind that Eric took arteminisin with cod liver oil. Someone here said that it could greatly potentiate the herb. Hard to imagine the consequences if it was tainted, as well.
Whatever the case here, we have a member who has had a very difficult time.
Claire
Posts: 1111 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Neuropathologic toxicity of artemisinin derivatives in a mouse model.Nontprasert A, Pukrittayakamee S, Dondorp AM, Clemens R, Looareesuwan S, White NJ. Department of Clinical Tropical Medicine and Bangkok Hospital for Tropical Diseases, Faculty of Tropical Medicine, Mahidol University, Bangkok, Thailand.
Intramuscular administration of high doses of artemether and arteether to experimental mammals produces selective damage to brain stem centers involved predominantly in auditory processing and vestibular reflexes. The relationship between clinical signs of neurotoxicity and neuropathologic toxicity was studied in the mouse. Intramuscular artemether (50-100 mg/kg/day for 28 days) caused dose-dependent neuropathologic damage to the brain stem. There was no pathologic evidence of neuronal death in mice receiving either oral artemether, or oral or intramuscular artesunate, in doses up to 300 mg/kg/day. The neurons in the lower brain stem trapezoid nucleus, the gigantocellular reticular nucleus, and the inferior cerebellar peduncle were the most sensitive to the toxic effects of artemether. All mice with neuropathologic changes also showed behavioral changes, whereas in some mice with gait disturbance, no corresponding histopathologic damage could be detected. Thus clinical assessment was a sensitive measure of neurotoxicity. There may be a reversible component to artemether neurotoxicity.
PMID: 12452498 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Toovey S,Jamieson A SAA-Netcare Travel Clinics, South Africa and Mozambique, P.O. Box 786692, Sandton, 2146, South Africa. [email protected] Animal studies have demonstrated artemisinin brain stem toxicity with auditory centres being especially affected; there has, to date, been no evidence of such toxicity with oral artemisinins in humans. Subjects working at a construction site in Mozambique had audiometric assessments taken on joining and leaving the project. Subjects with uncomplicated malarias received co-artemether {artemether-lumefantrine} {n = 150} while age-, gender-, weight- and race-matched controls {n = 150} neither suffered malaria nor received antimalarial therapy. Hearing thresholds were measured at predefined frequencies in treated subjects and controls. Subjects receiving co-artemether had a significantly greater heating loss than controls at all frequencies except 250 Hz and 500 Hz {P values ranging from <0.001 to 0.04, Mann-Whitney U}. Mean changes at the different frequencies in subjects ranged from -6.50 dB {95% CI -8.19 to -4.81} {at 1kHz frequency} to -0.07 dB {95% CI -2.19 to 2.05} {at 6 kHz frequency}. Mean changes in the control group ranged from -4.20 dB {95% CI -5.97 to -2.43} {at 1 kHz frequency} to +2.7 dB {95% CI -0.93 to 4.47} {at 6 kHz frequency}. Treatment of uncomplicated malaria with co-artemether is associated with hearing loss, possibly from synergy between potentially ototoxic agents in combination. The safety and neurotoxicity of artemesinins and other endoperoxides needs to be more fully evaluated.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
1. N. Valecha, K.D. Tripath. Artemisinin: current status in malaria. Ind. J. Pharmacol. (1997), 29, 71-75. 2. M.A. van Agtmael, T.A. Eggelte, C.J. van Boxtel: Artemisinin drugs in the treatment of malaria; from Chinese herb to registered medication. TiPS 20, 199-105, 1999. 3. S.R. Meshnick,Y.Z. Yang, V. Lima, f. Kuypers, S. Kamchonwongpaisan,Y. Yuthavong. Iron-dependent free radical generation from the antimalarial agent artemisinin (qinghaosu). Antimicrob Agents Chemother (1993), 37, 1108-14. 4. S. R. Meshnick. The mode of action of antimalarial endoperoxides. Transactions of the Society of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene (1994) 88, Suppl. 1, 31-32. 5. S.R. Meshnick. Artemisinin: mechanisms of action, resistance and toxicity. Int. J. Parasitol. (2002), 32, 1655-60. 6. N.J. White. Clinical pharmacokinetics and pharmacody-namics of artemisinin and derivatives. Trans R Soc Trop Med Hyg (1994), 88, 41-3. 7. P.A. Kager, .J. Schultz, E.E. Zijlstra, C.J. Van Boxtel. Arteether administration in humans: preliminary studies of pharmacokinetics, safety and tolerance. Trans. R. Soc. Trop. Med. Hyg. (1994), 88, 53-4. 8. McIntosh HM, Olliaro P. Artemisinin derivatives for treating uncomplicated malaria (Cochrane Methodology Review). In: The Cochrane Library, Issue 4, 2003. 9. T.T. Hien, N.J. White. Oinghaosu. Lancet (1993), 341, 603-8.10. R. Price, M. van Vugt, L. Phaipun, C. Luxemburger, J. Simpson, R. McGready, F. ter Kuile, A. Kham, T. Chongsuphajaisiddhi, N.J. White, F. Nosten. Adverse effects in patients with acute falciparum malaria treated with artemisinin derivatives. Am. J. Trop. Med. and Hygiene (1998), 60, 547-555. 11. T.G. Brewer, J.O. Peggins, S.J. Grate, J.M. Petras, B.S. Levine, P.J. Weina, J. Swearengen. M.H. Heiffer, B.G. Schuster. Neuro-toxicity in animals due to arteether and artemether. Trans R Soc.Trop. Med. Hyg. (1994), 88,33-6. 12. A. Nontprasert, S. Pukrittayakamee, A.M. Dondorp, R. Clemens, S. Looareesuwan, N.J. White. Neuropathologic toxicity of artemisinin derivatives in a mouse model. Am. J. Trop. Med. Hyg. (2002), 67, 423-9. 13. G. Schmuck, E. Roehrdanz, R.K. Haynes, R.Kahl. Neurotoxic Mode of Action of Artemisinin. Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy (2002), 46, 821-827. 14. A.M. Dondorp, M. Nyanoti, P.A. Kager, S. Mithwani, J. Vreeken, K. Marsh. The role of reduced red cell deformability in the pathogenesis of severe falciparum malaria and its restoration by blood transfusion. Trans. R. Soc. Trop. Med. Hyg. (2002), 96, 282-6. 15. K. Chotivanich, R. Udomsangpetch, A. Dondorp, T. Williams, B. Angus, J.A. Simpson, S. Pukrittayakamee, S. Looareesuwan, C.I. Newbold, N.J. White1. The mechanisms of clearance after antimalarial treatment of plasmodium falciparum malaria. J. Infect. Dis. (2000), 182, 629-33. 16. N. Sibmooh, B. Pipitaporn, P. Wilairatana, J. Dangdoungjai, R. Udomsangpetch, S. Looareesuiwan, U. Chantharaksri. Effect of artemisinin on lipid peroxidation and fluidity of the erythrocyte membrane in malaria. Biol. Pharm. Bull. (2003), 23, 1275-80. 17. M.A. van Agtmael, O. Bouchaud, D. Malvy, J. Delmont, M. Denis, S. Barette, C. Gras, J. Bernard, J-E. Touze, I. Gathmann, R. Mull and the CGP 56697 Study Group: The Comparative Efficacy and tolerability of CGP 56697 (-artemether + l-umefantrine) versus halofantrine in the treatment of uncomplicated f-alciparum Malaria in travellers returning from the Tropics to the Netherlands and France. Int. J. Antimicr. Agents. 12, 159-169, 1999. 18. J. Patocka, B. Plucar. Pharmacology and toxicology of absinthe. J. Appl. Biomed. (2003) 1, 209-205. 19. Leverson A. Letters to the Sphinx from Oscar Wilde and Reminiscences of the Author (1930).
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
valymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7076
posted
On his babs protocol my son takes art three times daily for three weeks and then a week off. He has told his llmd repeatedly that he feels worse the week he is off the art.
Another friend cannot tolerate even 100 mg. I forget her physical reactions, though.
Posts: 1240 | From Centreville,VA | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
As has been pointed out before, These studies that point to neurotoxicity are refering to derivatives. We have been discussing Artimisinin the water soluble powder, which has not been proven to be neurotoxic. Here are quotes from the article that you cited Tree:
"In humans treated with the artemisinin drugs adverse effects that could directly be ascribed to neurotoxicity have yet to be demonstrated. The recommended dosages for the treatment of malaria seem to be too low to pose much toxicological risk."
"Nevertheless, repeatedly concern has been expressed centering on possible neurotoxicity11. In all experimental mammals tested (rats, dogs, primates), intramuscular injections of the oil-soluble antimalarial artemisinin derivatives artemether and arteether (not Artemisinin) have produced an unusual pattern of selective damage to brain stem centers predominantly involved in auditory processing and vestibular reflexes. Neurological findings included gait disturbance, loss of spinal and pain response reflexes, and prominent loss of brain stem and eye reflexes. Artemether (not Artemisinin) dose-dependent neuropathologic damage to the brain stem was shown in the mouse12. The neurons in the lower brain stem trapezoid nucleus, the gigantocellular reticular nucleus, and the inferior cerebellar peduncle were the most sensitive to the toxic effects of artemether."
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by daystar1952: Remember how well tryptophan worked for people with depression...then it was banned ....supposedly due to a contaminated batch? I had heard that this "contaminated batch" had been intentionally created to use an excuse to take a natural substance that cannot be patented...off the market and to create more of a monopoly.
I DO remember and I believe what you said could indeed be the case.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I too get the impression that a couple of people here have an agenda that differs from that of the rest of us.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Quick question Polar Blast. Did you have iodine injection for CT scan around same time as reaction? (I'm not referring to allergic reaction, but did all this happen around same time as CT with Contrast?).
-------------------- Never walk through a cornfield backwards.
posted
i had a wierd reaction to the dye..and felt wierd afterwards..how are you doing? eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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Polar, weren't you taking the artemisinin BEFORE you started seeing your latest doctor?
Not that I care to vindicate your current doctor, but if memory serves me, your bad experience with the art predated your appointment/lab work with your doctor.
So your artemisinin didn't come from Dr. Zhang's website, but from somewhere else?
We would benefit knowing your source, I think.
We've all been through he** with these diseases, haven't we.
Posts: 353 | From Florida boonies | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Allergy Research, wow, that should be okay.
It's so weird that your experience was so extremely bad. But I believe you.
I've never taken artemisinin, but have had unusual responses to seemingly normal things.
Posts: 353 | From Florida boonies | Registered: Nov 2005
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