hiker53
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 6046
posted
I visited my acupuncturist today who is from China and is wise about herbs. He went over the list from Buhner's protocol with me and mentioned to be careful not to take too much sarsaparilla--that it can be toxic.
I only mention this because some of you have said you felt like you herxed on it and I wonder if it is a true herx or toxicity. Just be careful. Hiker
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8908 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I herxed NOTICEABLY on two little capsules. I think because it has antiinfective properties.
I had no problems, as I never took much more .
I do think it helps fight pathogens and is probably very safe ( has been used around the world for centuries ) unless taken in mega doses for a long time.
Personally, I think it may be a good idea to take breaks from the herbs periodically , to give your liver and body a break .
If Sarsaparilla is toxic then I should have one foot in the grave.
Been taking two caps/day since March '04. Feel better than pre-Lyme. No symptoms.
It's a keeper.
Blue Skies...........John
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
I have been on Sarsaparilla for over 15 months. I was on 12 capsules a day, for about 5 or 6 months; but now I am on 8 capsules a day.
I sure would not want to be without it either.
Sarsaparilla is actually GOOD FOR dysentary.
The only contrindication is that it can cause intestinal upset IF taken in very large doses.
Buhner recommends taking it at UP TO 16 capsules a day. For up to 8 to 12 months. Then SLOWLY cut down to a maintenance dose.
Smilax is good for many, many things, including: enhancing liver function. Good for crossing the blood/brain barrier and many more things HELPFUL to our health.
IT HELPS to REDUCE herxes.
If you THINK you are herxing a lot on it, you PROBABLY have other problems. ARE you taking Red Root tincture? Do you take Milk THistle? Probiotics IF you are taking abx?
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Let's not forget that herbs are, in fact, medicines. And as with any medicine, you've got to use your head and be aware of what you are taking.
There is a fairly long list of herbs that are known to be toxic to the liver if taken over a long period of time or if too much is taken in a short period. Sarsaparilla is just one of them. And personal sensitivity and susceptibility play a huge part in that, too.
Just like with Tylenol, too much or for too long a period could harm you. Herbs are not without risk, so just be aware of them.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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hardynaka
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Member # 8099
posted
For me too, that was the easiest herb in Buhner's protocol.
But there seems to be people that can't stand it well, as reported in some previous threads.
Even chamomile can cause allergic reaction!!
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
Ugh for me. I tried it just for a few days. I was never so sick in my life. Thought I would end up dead so I stopped it.
Well it could be that my Lyme is so bad it just scared my system to death or I just had a bad reaction to it like an allergy.
But then I'm allergic to everything but I'm still afraid to try it again.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Truthfinder: Let's not forget that herbs are, in fact, medicines. And as with any medicine, you've got to use your head and be aware of what you are taking.
There is a fairly long list of herbs that are known to be toxic to the liver if taken over a long period of time or if too much is taken in a short period. Sarsaparilla is just one of them. And personal sensitivity and susceptibility play a huge part in that, too.
Just like with Tylenol, too much or for too long a period could harm you. Herbs are not without risk, so just be aware of them.
Tracy
Yes, herbs do have medicinal qualities or we would not bother with them. But it is a mistake to think they are anything like the abx that are man concocted.
I certainly would NOT compare them in the same breath with things like Tylenol. I can't think of any amount of Tylenol that is good for you. I have TOTALLY quit taking Tylenol AND aspriin since I read how bad they are for you.
As far as Sarsaparilla being toxic to the liver, I NEED you to get PROOF to us that this is so. I have NEVER read anything about it being so. Rather the opposite is true from all that I have studied.
I am not talking about taking a pound a day or something like that. ANYTHING can be toxic IF you OVERDO it. But at Buhner's recommendations, I find it is certainly not true. MY liver is flourishing BECAUSE of what I take in the way of herbs. You just need the right balance. IF you do, the benefits will far outweigh any minor side effects. Of which there are practically none for most of us.
The ONLY contraindication for taking Sarsaparilla is that IF you overdose on it, you could upset your intestinal tract.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Hi, JimBob -
My point in using Tylenol as an example was to compare the CONCEPT of ``safe'' mainstream medicines to ``safe'' herbal medicines.
It wasn't too many years ago that most people had the impression that Tylenol was completely safe, so they administered it to themselves and their kids with abandon.
My only real point is to make sure people don't embark upon an herbal protocol with the idea that, ``Oh, these are just herbs. They can't possibly hurt you.'' (!)
quote:You just need the right balance.
Yes, and that's pretty key here. Speaking of balance, that's what herbal medicines are terrific at - correcting an imbalance in the body. If you overdo it, the pendulum can swing the other way and create an imbalance in the opposite direction
My Chinese Herbal book indicates that for the most part, herbs should not be taken indefinitely. That's why I get a little nervous at terms like ``maintenance dose'' when herbs are being discussed.
You want proof. Ha, ha, well most of the lists I have seen have been in books, but here is one that looks similar to what I have seen elsewhere. It is not proof, but it is evidence. As you know, there aren't all that many studies done on herbs, and I'm not sure we could believe those ``studies'' anyway. So, much of the information concerning problems arising from herbs are from reports only. And I'm well aware that `association'' does not always translate into `causation'.
By the way JimBob, did you or your wife EVER actually get tested for Lyme Disease? Awhile back you were contemplating getting tested through Igenex.
Speaking of PROOF, you've stated that you have Lyme Disease and that your wife does not. How do any of us know this to be true?
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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caat
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Member # 2321
posted
it has plant anti-inflamitory STERIODS... not good.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by caat: it has plant anti-inflamitory STERIODS... not good.
I went to that site and didn't find anything about Sarsaparilla there. It is almost 5 a.m. and I have been up since 9 a.m. yesterday, so am not going to waste my time any longer. I am going to bed NOW.
WHO cares IF they are PLANT steroids anyway. Explain yourself.
From her article: The Lyme Spirochete, B. Burgdorfori, has been shown to cause MS like plaques in advanced cases, and symptoms indistinguishable from MS have been documented in some cases. In some cases, Lyme disease has been diagnosed as MS. Existing Lyme tests are not completely reliable.
From her post: On a more positive note, not long ago I ran across an article entitled ``Speculation Concerning Lyme Disease, MS, and Sarsaparilla''. It makes some interesting points. http://www.healthfreedomsolutions.com/lymeandsarsaparilla.htm
By the way JimBob, did you or your wife EVER actually get tested for Lyme Disease? Awhile back you were contemplating getting tested through Igenex.
Speaking of PROOF, you've stated that you have Lyme Disease and that your wife does not. How do any of us know this to be true?
Tracy ###
Tracy: Even IF we had the tests, HOW would we know? Since they are so unreliable? I was diagnosed by my duck who HAS been tested and TWICE had Lyme disease along with the telltale target. AND he was treated both times and claims "cured". He ALSO believes that ALL people who get Lyme are cured with 21 days of abx.
MY wife has NONE of the symptoms. SHE had a deer tick on her last year. I gave her a bottle of my tetracycline. She had no "ring", and developed NO symptoms. We have had unprotected sex since I have known her, most of my Lyme years, and she STILL has NO symptoms whatsoever. I should feel so good.
I am wondering WHAT YOU believe? Since the articles you present are so contradictory even in themselves? SOMETIMES "truthfinders" don't really find the truth, I have found.
NOONE is perfect. NOONE knows it all. NOONE has a REAL handle on this disease. They are all floundering, some more than others, is all.
Well, time to get to the TV and "enjoy myself", watching some more NASCAR practicing. Maybe make some herbal capsules while I do.
posted
I may be incorrect , but I sense there are some here who want to discredit the efficacy and safety of herbs. You ARE correct , that there are many plants that are toxic . You are correct that good plants can have toxic effects if taken at excessive doses .
I do not think JimBob is advocating that anyone here blindly stuff themselves with any herbs without research .
The bottom line is that there are people here who have not been healed with ABX ( count me in on that ) . Some of them are living normal lives again and progressing ( almost miraculously ) better than those who have been on ABX COMBOS for YEARS . This is SIGNIFICANT .
Any intelligent person weighs the risks of the available choices , and our choices are not ideal.
JiM and the other Buhner people do want to share the hope they have found and I thank them for that .
My personal opinion is that I will never get well on ABX alone. EVERDAY I read posts about people who are not well after years of ABX , and they feel they are running out of options.
Truthfinder mentions plants that can be toxic. What is the point ? We all know that . The very things we need to thrive can also be toxic , like VIT A or selenium . Does that imply we should abdicate VIT A or selenium? Of course not .
I have taken plenty of ABX , and many here will testify that they feel TOXIC after a while from the negative effects they create .
I really wish JimBob's lyme diagnosis and credibility were not being questioned. That seems like a potshot to me.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Well, sorry to bring up this thread once again, but I have a job to do. I need to say ``I'm sorry''.
JimBob, my sincere apologies. I honestly had never seen you post about being diagnosed with Lyme by any kind of practitioner, let alone a duck/doc. And I've read at least 80% of your posts during the past year. I was under the impression that you were self-diagnosed and self-treated. So, I stand corrected.
JimBob, this is the second time in about a month that I've had to apologize to you. I think if it happens a third time, you get some kind of prize. I'll have to check the forum rules.
quote:MY wife has NONE of the symptoms. SHE had a deer tick on her last year. I gave her a bottle of my tetracycline. She had no "ring", and developed NO symptoms. We have had unprotected sex since I have known her, most of my Lyme years, and she STILL has NO symptoms whatsoever.
But JimBob! About once a month we see people post about asymptomatic spouses who turn up positive on Western Blots for Lyme infections. You just can't assume she doesn't have it just because she has no symptoms - yet. Lord knows how many years it took for me to show symptoms. I guess I'm just concerned, that's all. Nothing more than that.
And by the way, Sarsaparilla does contain plant steroids - about 2% as I recall. I think it was actually in that second article I posted about. But I don't know if we can really equate plant steroids to human/synthetic steroids. I'm not sure that would be a fair comparison at all.
Ann, yes, I posted that some herbs can be toxic. It didn't seem fair to single out poor little Sarsaparilla like it was the only herb that could cause this kind of problem. I was simply trying to present more of the whole story, not just a fragment.
quote:Truthfinder mentions plants that can be toxic. What is the point ? We all know that .
No, Ann, they don't. I've stood in the health food store and heard people say stuff like, ``Oh, go ahead and take it. It's just an herb. It can't possibly hurt you.''
And you are right, Ann. If I had doubts about JimBob's diagnosis, I certainly could have worded it differently or sent him a PM. I goofed.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
i've been on the fence about this product, because of the steroidal properties of one onr more of the saponins.
however historian,and narrator, armstrong, in the film, "Lewis and Clark," said Clark gave his men sarsaparilla when they showed signs of syphilus. so, theoretically,sarsap. may have some application for lyme and other spirochetal infections.
i'm inclined to use sarsap. but only if i have abx in my system.
Posts: 2708 | Registered: Feb 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Tracy:
Apology Accepted. Though I don't remember when and what for the other one was. ###
By Tracy: JimBob, my sincere apologies. I honestly had never seen you post about being diagnosed with Lyme by any kind of practitioner, let alone a duck/doc. And I've read at least 80% of your posts during the past year. I was under the impression that you were self-diagnosed and self-treated. So, I stand corrected. ## Tracy: I was diagnosed by my duc back in March of 2000, after being bit in October of 99. I didn't see the tick and didn't have a target, but had a quarter sized round red spont on the top of my foot that lasted about two weeks. I just hoped it would go away with no problems. Well by February, I could hardly get up off my chair when I was sitting at the computer. Actually by January it was pretty bad. So I finally made an appointment.
My duck gave me Cipro for 24 days. ANd it worked great for about 8 to 10 months, don't remember for sure, but then got some of the pain back behind the knees in the tendons.
My duck said I was cured and ALL people are cured in 21 days of abx. So it was just residual pain or something else. (He has gotten lyme twice and "cured" twice with abx. Course he is a doctor and I am sure was diagnosed instantly).
I got so bad by the fall of 2005 I could hardly exist, and he would NOT do anything about it. AND he wouldn't have me tested as I had no money, and he said it would be at least $700 to do the tests. So finally I decided to do something about it myself. And joined LymeNet. The first day on I saw the Amazon advertisement for the Healing Lyme book and ordered it right away, and the rest is history.
I have posted about my duck hundreds of times, since November of 2005. My personal info says I joined in DECEMBER of 2005, but this is the second time I joined. I had 50 posts under another name. Don't remember what it was. I was pretty brain foggy at the time. ###
JimBob, this is the second time in about a month that I've had to apologize to you. I think if it happens a third time, you get some kind of prize. I'll have to check the forum rules. ## I am ALWAYS open to receiving PRIZES! ###
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MY wife has NONE of the symptoms. SHE had a deer tick on her last year. I gave her a bottle of my tetracycline. She had no "ring", and developed NO symptoms. We have had unprotected sex since I have known her, most of my Lyme years, and she STILL has NO symptoms whatsoever. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But JimBob! About once a month we see people post about asymptomatic spouses who turn up positive on Western Blots for Lyme infections. You just can't assume she doesn't have it just because she has no symptoms - yet. Lord knows how many years it took for me to show symptoms. I guess I'm just concerned, that's all. Nothing more than that. ## I am concerned also, but SHE doesn't seem to care all that much one way or the other. So, I just keep taking my herbs, and HOPE she is not a carrier of that and/or other things without showing symptoms. Time will tell, I guess. ###
And by the way, Sarsaparilla does contain plant steroids - about 2% as I recall. I think it was actually in that second article I posted about. But I don't know if we can really equate plant steroids to human/synthetic steroids. I'm not sure that would be a fair comparison at all. ##
I would NEVER equate "Plant" Steroids with the manmade steroids that we have today. MAYBE IF you were to extract them from their natural environment FROM the plants, and give them to people without the benefits of the WHOLE herb. ###
Ann, yes, I posted that some herbs can be toxic. It didn't seem fair to single out poor little Sarsaparilla like it was the only herb that could cause this kind of problem. I was simply trying to present more of the whole story, not just a fragment. ##
There are SO many things that Sarsaparilla does for us, WHOLE, that any little "possible" but unfounded side effects are NILL for MOST people who NEED the benefits of it. I for one will NOT quit it, long after I have gotten rid of Lyme, IF I ever do get rid ot it. ### Jim ###
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by pq: i've been on the fence about this product, because of the steroidal properties of one onr more of the saponins.
however historian,and narrator, armstrong, in the film, "Lewis and Clark," said Clark gave his men sarsaparilla when they showed signs of syphilus. so, theoretically,sarsap. may have some application for lyme and other spirochetal infections.
i'm inclined to use sarsap. but only if i have abx in my system.
##
I am inclined to USE Sarsaparilla WITHOUT ANY abx in MY system. A WHOLE lot LESS side effects and a WHOLE lot more support for my system.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
quote:Apology Accepted. Though I don't remember when and what for the other one was.
Thanks, JimBob. Just as well you don't remember the last incident. I don't remember what the thread was about now either. All I remember is that I bit your head off because something you posted hit me wrong that day.
quote:I am ALWAYS open to receiving PRIZES!
Well, let's hope you don't get a chance to win this one.
quote:I am concerned also, but SHE doesn't seem to care all that much one way or the other. So, I just keep taking my herbs, and HOPE she is not a carrier of that and/or other things without showing symptoms. Time will tell, I guess.
Yeah, my boyfriend is kind of in the same boat. Except that we KNOW he has Bb in his system. So, he's taking a few natural things to help control microbes. As you said, time will tell.
Thanks for filling me in on some of the rest of ``your story''. It helps to round out the picture.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
I didn't mean to ignore you TRACY, I just found this thread again now as I was searching out Caat posts, as he/she seems to be against all natural herbs etc., for healing our bodies, and I was trying to see if he/she had/has Lyme and was or wasn't cured and how IF.
Like you said it helps to know more of the "whole" picture.
caat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2321
posted
Jimbob, you haven't searched all my posts. I was one of the first to post info on artemisinin/artemisia annua, and have also posted on chapparel, olive leaf, cinimmon etc.
I'll use anything that I think is appropriate and might work.
I think you are flaming me because you don't like anyone to say anything negative about any herb. Even if the properties of that herb are inappropriate for major infections.
Herbs are drugs. I think it's important to know what the properties and interactions of drugs are before you take them. Then a person can make up their mind for themselves.
Buhner is also recommending herbs which are hypercoagulants. I have to say, to each their own, but I wouldn't toutch that either. Not with potential babesia or bartonella or even yeast.
I do like Zhang though. He does his homework.
Posts: 1436 | From Humboldt county ca usa | Registered: Mar 2002
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klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
There are definitely time limits on courses of some herbs, which is why it is good to have a practitioner to guide you if possible.
My TCM doc presently has me on a Lysimachia forumula to help break up gallstones. It has a three week limit that you can take it at any one time. After a break you can take it again, but only a few days per month as a preventative.
IMO, some of the herbs on the list posted up above should not be taken at all, for any length of time. Poke weed, chaparral, and ma huang are 3 of them.
Chaparral, as part of Monastery of Herbs Lyme sets #173 formula, put me in the hospital with liver problems and a dangerously high potassium. Chaparral can destroy a liver, so that a transplant is needed to live. It is rare but it happens. Why risk it, when there are so many safer herbal alternatives?
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
NO, caat, I have NOT read ALL of your posts. Just a bunch of them. I certainly don't have the time, nor the inclination to read ALL of them. MOST that I have read do not help in Lyme in MHO.
Klutzo, I agree with you 100%. There are BETTER alternatives.
Buhner, in his Healing Lyme book HAS done his "homework" and strongly recommends AGAINST using Poke Root unless you are doing it under the care of a good practitioner and even then use extreme caution. He recommends using Red Root instead as a very safe alternative to keeping your Lymph system cleansed and working properly so you don't have to suffer with needless herxes.
NO, caat, I do NOT defend herbs just for herbs sake. I have taken many herbs that Buhner doesn't recommend in his Healing Lyme book, because I read about them elsewhere, including here, and SOME got me into trouble, and others did NOTHING to help me that I could see or feel. Including Olive Leaf. I still have over half a pound of Olive Leaf IF you want it.
Of course it is YOUR perogative to take or NOT take whatever. BUT don't TRY to use scare tactics on the newbies, etc., which are totally unfounded. They are just that: YOUR opinion. NOT the opinion of educated herbalists and practitioners for the MOST part.
It is quite obvious YOU are NOT educated in herbal therapy. I went to your website also, and found nothing really usable for me.
I will stick to Buhner, who MAKES NOTHING off the herbs HE recommends, and has education, knowledge, honesty, AND experience in herbs better than any others I have read about.
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