posted
I sent my blood in to [name removed] Laboratories. This is the lab polar blast is talking about. I had them do a smear/stain test. They took pictures and sent them to me with their differential. At the bottom of the text it says "This hemataological stain is not FDA approved and is for research use only."
It shows I have:
Coccobacilli: Bartonella spp. or Mycoplasma spp.
Protazoans: Babesia spp.
Here's some links to a scan of what I got back from the [name removed] lab:
I already did have positive antibodies to Babesia Microti, and I did have a positive C6 Peptide test for Lyme disease. And I have the classic stretch marks on my sides and arm pits that are associated with Bartonella.
[ 17. April 2007, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: jasonsmith ]
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Thanks for sharing. Hubby got a copy of his bloodwork, but his LLMD did not send us the photos so don't know for sure yet what stain showed.
Would suggest you get tested for mycoplasma as well. The more info you have on which infections you actually have, the better your LLMD can target your treatment.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
So I guess you think this means your not crazy?
HA!
Kinda nice to "see" something when you feel icky.. doesn't it. Kind of a confirmation.
Good to know you are getting some answers.
But after seeing your pictures... I have a question if you don't mind.
Has anyone told you lately that you sure are a good looking fellow? No doubt!
I had a negative test by PCR for Mycoplasma through MDL. Actually, I had just about every test MDL offers done. I had a negative test by PCR for Bartonella also through MDL.
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
did you do the test tube? or pin prick on your finger and then put on a slide? eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by polar blast: was that the tube that came with the kit? eric
Yes, the purple top tube.
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Yes, Jason - you've got some really fine looking red cells. Couldn't help but notice them myself....
Hey, aren't we supposed to be protecting the name of this lab/doc?
What did I miss?
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
WOW, you're loaded!! My daughter's picture only showed a couple of cells with babesia in them. A few with bartonella. There was one more that was a cattle bacteria...Theileria? Weird.
Bea...call their office and tell them you have not received it. You paid for it, they need to get it to you.
posted
That is a really bad infection, nearly every cell!
How sick are you with all that going on?
Its really encouraging though to see that there is a lab that still knows how to do this the old fashioned way... With a human that actually understands what he is looking at instead of a dumb machine.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Well, this lab has been published in a Lyme magazine, with pictures of their findings. I don't remember what the link is. They don't take insurance. You can't keep everything a secret from everybody.
I have severe fatigue and excessive sleepyness. Very low stamina, limbs like to fall asleep easily, confusion, depression-like, anxiety, etc. And chronic diarrhea. These problems started in 99. They started barely noticeable and have slowly gotten worse over time. As it moves along, I noticed new things pop up.
Actually, it started the last time I slept with this girl I was seeing at the time in 99. That night, I went to bed tired, and got up the next morning tired. That never went away, and as a few months past, I noticed I started getting sleepy during the day, and that I started having anxiety in school. Then one day I developed diarrhea that never went away. As time went on, the sleepyiness slowly increased to where I want to sleep 12+ hours a day, and am real sleepy during the day.
I do have positive epstein-barr IgG tests. I don't ever recall having a Mono type illness. 3 years ago I had shingles for a few weeks.
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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Funny you should mention the viral infections. I am and have always had high viral titers. EBV CMV etc. I recently tested positive for mycoplasma and Chlamydia my LLMD seems to think it's normal
I think it's what keeps us all in a constant state of fatigue. But it's just my opinion..
Blessings,
Julia
-------------------- Please consult your LLMD before making any changes to your treatment regimen. Posts: 641 | From NJ, USA | Registered: Oct 2001
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Jason this lab may I ask the pricing $$.$$ ? for what they did here for you ???
Thanks appreciated Also is this a lab that will take blood from another state?
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
PM the information please, I am afraid of this going on the public boards. If you want a phone number and some information, you can send me a message
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by kelmo: PM the information please, I am afraid of this going on the public boards. If you want a phone number and some information, you can send me a message
Kelly
ditto
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Jason, did you note the thread at the top of the main page here that asks not to use doctor's names? In this case, you are doing just that.
PLEASE edit your message heading and all your posts where you have actually used Doc F's name. Additionally, please go online and black out the name of this lab and the address on the lab report.
Here's the reason: This lab is also affiliated with a good Lyme DOCTOR, and he happens to be about the only Lyme doc in his part of the country!!
Many well-known LLMDs have been written about in various articles and have published papers and articles themselves, but we STILL refrain from using their names here on the board. Too much specific information is given on this board about certain docs and treatment, so we simply cannot take the chance that this information could somehow be used against a doctor that we desperately need and rely on.
I would really appreciate your cooperation with this.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
"Many well-known LLMDs have been written about in various articles and have published papers and articles themselves, but we STILL refrain from using their names here on the board."
Besides being against Lymenet rules.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Alot of the standard labs actually have a checkbox on their labsheets for a 'malaria smear'. That is essentially what Jason's test was.
The problem according to James Schaller's (he's an author of numerous books and his name is very public) recent book on Babesia is that the labs often don't have anyone that is both properly trained AND willing to carefully examine the slide.
If they do have someone, he is likely a grumpy old man that was trained by the Army to look for Malaria during the Viet Nam war. He is annoyed at having to interrupt what he was doing to look at this... Muttering something under his breath about 'there isn't any %*!^ Malaria here'... And spending all of 10 seconds examining it before writing 'negative' on the report.
Reportedly they often only look with the lower power 400x dry objective that won't show anything, because they don't want to bother with the mess of oil immersion. (My paraphrase of what his book said.)
Although we sometimes get the impression that life is treated as cheap in places like Africa, they will spend alot of time looking at slides for Malaria, and will do this repeatedly until they are sure of the diagnosis. Malaria goes in cycles, so while nothing is seen in one sample, a few hours later the person may have raging fever and a massive infection.
The same principles apply to babesia, except that it is usually harder to see so even more careful examination is required.
By the way, any person with a decent quality basic microscope and some stain can do this. Some instructions can be found on that website I linked.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I'll go ahead and edit my posts. I do know the rules about mentioning doctor's names. But I wasn't mentioning a doctor's name, but the name of a lab. I can't help the doctor put his name in the name of the lab. It's the same as everyone posting about their Igenex or MDL lab results.
I really don't want 100 PM's asking for all this info.
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
Thank you Jason...they can write me, I don't mind.
The name of this lab contains an LLMD's last name, who is Dr. F. Dr. F must have started this lab.
I didn't mention the doctor, I just mentioned the labs name. And that is why people were upset. I can't help this LLMD decided to put his last name into the name of this lab. It makes it hard to talk about a lab and not being able to tell people what lab you are talking about.
Besides, I have seen people write Dr. F's full last name several times on this board, and no one has said anything about it.
I do believe that you can't keep everything a secret from everyone. People have to know about the lab in order to use it, but you can't tell anyone because "certain" people may hear it too.
I'm glad I found out about the lab, and censoring this lab will result in depriving other people a chance to learn about this lab and possibly using it to get test results. But if no one else hears about the lab and is unable to use it, at least I got what I needed.
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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Truthfinder
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posted
Cave, you just openly posted a doc's name here. You may not agree with the rules, but could you please follow them for the sake of the doctors (and patients) out there? (And please edit your post.)
Jason, thanks very much for your help on this.
This situation - a Lyme doc and a lab connection - has never come up before since I have been coming to LymeNet - so I understand the confusion about how to handle it.
Instead of speculating about it, perhaps the wisest action would be for someone to write or call The F. Lab (or Dr. F. directly) and find out what HIS preference is on using the name of the lab publicly.
That way we can put this argument to rest rather quickly.
Any volunteers?
You know, perhaps ``anyone with half a brain can figure out who a doctor is from his last name initial'', but one thing I know about war is that you don't willingly hand over ammunition to your enemy.
Using a doc's initial only ``suggests'' who the doc might be - it is not ``prima facie evidence'' (legally sufficient evidence to establish a fact or a case unless disapproved) as it might be if the name were spelled out.
I, for one, have no intention of making it easy for the enemy. They are going to have to do a little bit of work to get what they need.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I agree! We need to weigh the benefit of getting important information into the hands of victims against the risk of exposing professionals who have already "gone public" by creating websites, writing books, etc.
Posts: 422 | From Herndon, Virginia | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
The rule about doctors names is there for a very good reason. Please observe it or do not post on this website.
I know all the arguments against the rule, but newbies come here constantly and have no clue about the political situation and how perilously difficult it is to get treatment. People are losing their homes, marriages going bust, committing suicide because of the stress and difficulty of getting treatment.
The problem is that when you post names, newbies innocently think it is ok to tell every detail of their treatments, their symptoms, their ER visits, etc. So the trolls who are definitely reading this forum don't even have to get the state medical board involved to collect information on a doctor so they can use it to take away a license. This is not a situation that should exist in a country that claims to be a democracy. It is more like we are the Resistance in a world run by lyme Nazis.
I feel so strongly about this that I think someone should report patients to their doctors when names are used publicly. If you can't help to protect doctors, then do you deserve treatment? I know this sounds harsh, but if you have been around the lyme political scene for any length of time at all, you will know that it absolutely is true and necessary. I have lost several doctors to this persecution, and seen others undertreating because of the fear of persecution.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Okay, I'm one of those newbies. I think I sort of understand the political thing, but also would like to know the name of this great lab. I'm taking my son to a llmd next week. Would like to not wast time and money. Babesia is suspected, possibly others. He just turned 15. Can someone please pm me? (Hopefully I'll know when I get it! I'm really new here!) Thank you!
m
Posts: 7 | From Illinois | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
If I were you, maestro, I would take the initiative and pm polar blast or jason to get the name. They may or may not come back to read this thread.
The other thing is that your doc may have his/her own ideas about which labs to use, and lab tests require an order from a doctor. So, you cannot do this by yourself. But it wouldn't hurt to just mention that you heard of them. And that might elicit a discussion of labs and techniques.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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Michelle M
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7200
posted
Awesome pics, Jason. I'm SO glad you posted, and glad you know definitely what is going on in your blood. What a great idea!
I do have one question...
What type of treatment had you been on before testing? If any? (Whether that be antibiotics or antimalarials or what-not.)
Wishing you the best and thanks so much for sharing that with us...
Michelle
Posts: 3193 | From Northern California | Registered: Apr 2005
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
No one is upset. Just cautious. This wasn't a discipline, it was just a reminder.
Please contact me if you want information on the lab. Don't pester someone who is sick. I'll help out, that way.
I had taken some doxycycline for a couple of weeks. I did take Biaxin and Flagyl for a few days and quit cause it was upsetting my stomach.
But after those two weeks, I was off meds for one week before I had my blood drawn for this test.
So, I had only been taking meds for a couple of weeks shortly before I had my blood drawn for this test. Other than that, I haven't been taking anything.
Keep in mind that there is a disclaimer at the bottom that says "This hemataological stain is not FDA approved and is for research use only."
I'm guessing that's to cover their butts. I would like to see them get it FDA approved though. I do wonder if anyone would accept a diagnosis based on these lab results if they are not FDA approved?
I have heard that the Bb can or does live in white blood cells. I was thinking about calling the lab to mention it would be something worth looking into of having a stain blood smear done for Bb and looking into the white blood cells for it.
Though, I don't even know if it is possible to do that, but just an idea.
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Lymeout. Dr. F has not gone public. His photos were published in PHA without his knowledge. I told him about it, it was news to him! He was excited about it, but wasn't told they were going to be published.
No one is keeping this information from the victims. I said I would be happy to share the contact information. But, I won't post it. Private Message me, and I'll get back to you within an hour. THAT'S SERVICE!
Dr. F just has a small office and a lab. Dr. S (who is the public doc with books, etc.) is the one who is referring patients to Dr. F's lab.
As far as the FDA getting involved. His lab was never meant to be a public lab. He will do the testing, but it has always been about research.
I asked him why he attends all the conferences, but he doesn't put his name on the list as an LLMD. He said he would prefer to be known as a doctor who treats infections. He's a microbiologist
In my opinion, that's a smart position for a field that is continually being sabotaged.
I would love to keep him all to ourselves. We can get same day appointments, if we need to. But, I have been sharing his phone number so that you can have an opportunity to see your illness in such a wonderful way.
If this doesn't suit anyone, there's IGENEX, right?
Why are we making such a big deal about this? It's always been a policy of lymenet not to post Dr names.
posted
Is there any particular infections Dr. F is interested in besides the Lyme stuff?
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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Dave6002
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9064
posted
I am still having the big question here(I asked before but never got the answer):
How does he specifically identify the bacterial species?
To my knowledge, so far only FISH and PCR can unambiguously specify bacterial species.
If only by morphology, the report should be stated something like "...might be bartonella infection."
I am interested in what special technique other than simple blood smear staining he is using to do the test.
As James satated, a simple blood smear and staining , looking under a 100X oil microscope is nothing new.
It's not a big deal.
Most people can do it, if the have a microscope with an oil objective.
If he can just prove that chronic Lymies have bacterial infections in their blood, that will overturn the Guideline for lyme disease and warrant abx treatment.
Isn't it the proof we want desperately?
Also the pic is not clear enough to convince people.
I would like to see a pic with much much high quality.
Posts: 1078 | From Fairland | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
One cannot precisely identify the organism this way, unless it has some unique identifying characteristic. They in my oponion are not attempting to do that.
(Paraphrasing) It just says 'Protazoan, Babesia of some sort, and bacterial adhering to erythrocytes, suggestive of Bartonella or Mycobacterium of some sort. Followup studies to make a more precise identification is suggested.'
Probably a higher resolution scan of the photo wouldn't show much more detail. What you see is about the limit of the microscopy, and that is a pretty good slide and photo in my opinion.
(Ones of higher quality only exist on CSI, where they can zoom in on a fuzzy store security video and read someone's fingerprints from the reflection on their sunglasses. You can make the image bigger, but you cannot see much more.)
For any medical professional who WANTS to see it, that is proof positive of a mixed infection, and a bad one at that.
A smear just like that is the gold standard for diagnosing Malaria. In the case of Malaria, that sample would likely have been post-mortem!
For those who want to deny it, even if the little protazoans had barcodes on their backs, they would just be 'contaminants'. They don't want to see it so therefore they do not.
I suspect the objective of the test is not to try to prove anything to the denialists, nor would they care to venture into that treacherous business.
It is probably more for their own understanding of what things they are dealing with in a particular individual.
[ 11. April 2007, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: James H ]
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I cant believe that I am hearing this...this test has saved alot of people grief..it does show infection...as to what organism it does...just not the paticular organism...I guess you guys want to see it really up close..and for what?this test is just what it is and if you want to knock it then go jump in a lake.. eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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I think it is great! The fact that it can't identify the exact strain doesn't diminish that one bit.
In fact, this test has a big advantage over other testing methods that are only sensitive to one or two strains of one particular pathogen, and ignore everything else. It can show infections of unknown and unexpected types.
This is great that there are still people that know how to do this.
The real key to its success is having a skilled individual who understands what he is looking at. The big labs just have machine operators.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
My daughter had to go to a new psychiatrist on the State insurance plan. We were really scared because she had seen one doctor for four years, and now we were forced to give her up.
I took in the ILADS brochure for psychiatrists, lab results, and the picture of her blood.
The psychiatrist new Dr. F and had great respect for him. She asked numerous questions about lyme and we really felt she was sympathetic and open.
Regarding your post, just wondering if you are in the microbiology field? Or have you just done alot of reading?
Regarding all the Babesia in my blood, I'm guessing you think that is a very high load? What does the Babesia do in the blood cells that cause problems? My chief complaints are extreme fatigue and excessive sleepiness.
Someone did PM about it and said something about my blood cells clumping together. What do you say?
Thanks
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
No, I don't work in that field. I'm just using some of these readily available tools to be able to deal with these problems in not such a blind manner. It is a necessity in view of the current situation with the medical system denying us treatment.
Usually you just see one here and there, but it possibly goes in cycles like malaria. Another time a sample might show very few. I didn't count, but it looked like at least 1/2 had rings inside.
There were so many, I thought some of them might be bubbles, which sometimes form if the film is not completely dried before the fixant is applied. But, looking closer, they were all stained blue. Bubbles don't stain.
What do they do to you? The spleen has the job of destroying the infected cells. If there are alot of them, you could become very anemic.
Considering what that blood went through by the time it was finally under the pathologist's microscope... I wouldn't try to read anything else such as cells clumping.
For one thing, the first thing that happens is they are put into a purple top tube containing EDTA to stabilize the sample and prevent clotting.
I thought they looked pretty good considering... with the exception that they were full of bugs.
[ 12. April 2007, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: James H ]
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Thanks. I've heard that Babesia also infects tissue? I was thinking it was just the RBC's.
I've tested negative for anemia. But I've heard about people testing normal but still having anemia. My main symptom is extreme fatigue and excessive sleepiness. Would the Babesia cause these symptoms?
And I see that Bartonella is attached to my RBC's. Is that the only place this bug goes, or doees it go into the tissue as well? I haven't been tested for Bartonella, though I do have those stretch marks on my sides and arm pits. So, those would suggest a Bartonella rash.
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
Most definitely bartonella. Just Google bartonella photos, and you should come up with some pictures.
I fell out of my chair when I saw them because my daughter had them for months before she had seen a lyme doc.
Dr. F says he find bart and babs go together, for the most part. So, expect one with the other.
Bartonella likes to hid in the jaw and joints. A far infrared sauna has helped, I believe.
We are so new to the babesia treatment that we don't know what are symptoms and what is a herx.
She's feeling pretty crummy.
How did you post your picture? It would be nice if we had a library of photos.
quote:Originally posted by jasonsmith: And I see that Bartonella is attached to my RBC's. Is that the only place this bug goes, or doees it go into the tissue as well?
They eventually work their way into the RBC's, and multiply inside. I don't know what they do during the rest of their sordid little lives.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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I'm gonna get a better picture up. I'll get an actual digital scan of the photo. And not a scan from a copy of the photo, as the original looks better. I had to make a color copy on thin paper because the thick photo won't run through my scanner/printer.
I'll have two of them up. One will be the full size so you can get a better look of the picture. And I'll have a shrunken version like the photo in my link, that way you can look at it and not have to scroll.
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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I am pretty sure that Theileria is actually a form of Babesia or a very closely related organism.
Jason,
Hubby got a black and white copy of his blood slides from his LLMD. He had already been on quinine for a month and was feeling much better and less symptomatic -- slide still showed moderate babesia although bloodwork was negative for antibodies.
Also moderate bartonella seen on slide and bloodwork showed antibodies as well.
Babesia causes the cell membranes to be too brittle and the red blood cells can't fold up like they are supposed to so they can pass through the capillaries. As a result you would get less oxygen to your tissues. If the infection is in the brain it can cause seizure-like symptoms.
Bartonella can also go to the brain. This is a frequent finding in AIDS patients. Often causes G.I. symptoms as well.
Some of hubby's main symptoms are tremors/myoclonus/seizure-like episodes. His LLMD has said that Lyme or babesia or bartonella could cause these symptoms.
Whatever infections hubby has all seem to be primarily in the brain and nervous system. He has been sick 6 years, but that is where the symptoms started for him. The nervous system and G.I.
I think these infections target a person's weakest organ or body system.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
Thanks.
Did quinine work better for him than mepron? We may have to give up mepron due to the cost, if insurance doesn't cover it.
posted
Jason, Thank you for originally posting this. Kelly, Thank you for providing the PM with the details.
I brought the information to my first in-person LLMD appointment yesterday. We decided to go ahead and order this test before deciding on treatment options in hopes that we will be more targeted and effective.
I am so very, very grateful for this forum. It continues to help fill in the gaps in so many ways!
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
I don't want to be a pain in the ***, but do you have a "normal person"'s analogous bloodwork, to see if the dots they are pointing at are not an artifact of the method, etc? Just a thought. Especially since there is a non FDA approved label attach, I would not blindly trust anythying.
Posts: 59 | From CA | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Labs use all sorts of stains for different purposes, and I doubt many are FDA approved, since they are not medicines. Most are just simple chemicals.
Those look very real to me. A control would look just like the RBC's you see that don't have blue staining ring forms inside. And, of course the coccoid bacteria would simply be absent.
If you type BABESIA into Google Images you will see pictures similar to Jason's.
It's a simple test that any Dr's office in a third world country with Malaria can do.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Kelmo -- Hubby had a really severe allergic reaction to Mepron. Rash started on day 10 with a couple of hives and within a day or two his entire body was red with welts and he gained 10 pounds in fluid weight. Had a fever also I think -- hard to remember now.
Runcy... -- Hubby's photos are similar to those posted but he only has a moderate infection and not a severe one as Jason does -- obvious that there are less abnormal bloodcells.
The true test of whether the photos are real is if the person is symptomatic and then responds to treatment. I would trust a bloodslide over an antibody test any day of the week.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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That is not a dumb question at all. 'Coccoid' just refers to the shape of the bacteria, meaning they are round or oval. That was how the lab report Jason posted referred to them. It is just scientific techno-babble.
Most of us would prefer to just call them little round bugs.
James
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Just got an answer about the photos... when they do the smears from the blood of symptomatic people, they look similar to jasonsmith's photo... and after treatment, they don't have these things in the blood anymore. Hope that answers the question.
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
My daughter had her blood smear done after a year of bartonella treatment. The photo only showed three babesia in her blood.
She was on zith and rifampin at the time of the test.
However, since starting mepron, and heparin, she has had her BUTT KICKED. She hasn't been this sick in over a year.
Sick...I mean SICK. The babs must've been camping out somewhere.
posted
interesting thread; thanks for sharing jason! take care, and hope you get to feeling better now that you know what you are fighintg!!
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posted
I think I'm first going to concentrate on the Babesia and Bartonella. I think I'm going to follow Dr. B's treatment recommendation for Bartonella. I got it from one of those Lyme conference videos. I forget the website.
Ruth, where did you get your info from? The lab?
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
I ordered that DVD, as well, and wrote Dr. F.
We are out in the SW, and for some reason, he said levoquan(?) Cipro, wasn't helpful for the strains we have.
So, try it, if it doesn't work...try something else!
posted
Sorry, been feeling up/down and haven't checked in for over a week...
I asked the question when I was there to get tested.
The answer was: they see this stuff when people are sick and they don't see the stuff when people get well.
Encouraging words for me anyway.
Also mentioned that when the photos have been shown to doctors familiar with malaria, they are supportive of the infection interpretation. (Wish I could remember the actual quotes here, but it's the short term memory.)
-------------------- When I lost my grip on Faith in the maze of illness, Hope gently clasped my hand and led on.
RuthRuth Posts: 478 | From California | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by kelmo: I ordered that DVD, as well, and wrote Dr. F.
We are out in the SW, and for some reason, he said levoquan(?) Cipro, wasn't helpful for the strains we have.
So, try it, if it doesn't work...try something else!
Kelly
Which Bartonella strain does Dr. F. believe is in the south west?
I was thinking if we could get this thread a sticky for others to post their pictures of their blood test results as well. ???
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Interesting pics... I'm not an expert, but I'm uncertain how conclusive they are.
I started to seriously suspect that babesia might be a big part of my illness (if not the major part). I got so annoyed that I couldn't get anyone here (UK) to do a stained blood smear, that I bought an expensive microscope and learned to do them myself.
I got pale blue irregular-shaped inclusions (that were in sharp focus when the erythrocyte was sharp). Occasionally more than one to a cell. Also, some strange red dots in some cells.
See also pics on the LDA website, under "TBDs under the scope". Interesting... the babesia pics look just like mine!
1) Getting a good smear-fix-stain etc is critical. I got my first few a bit wrong and initially saw similar things to the pics you've posted in some areas of my smear. I discovered that, if something didn't quite go right (fix too long? smear not completely dry before fixing?), the lighter central area of the red blood cells could form a "ring" outline. I also got several areas in the smear where you'd get a little blue dot attached to the edge of the blood cell. When I learned to get the smears right, these went away. Most of the "ring forms" in that smear pic look too central within the cell to me... and as someone said, there's so many, if they were truly babesia, you'd probably be dead!
2) Focus is critical. Little dots of stain precipitate can appear as rings when out of focus. And they'll be out of focus when the blood cells are in focus. So when you spot something suspicious, you refocus and see if the suspicious ring becomes sharp (as a blue-black dot normally) at a different focus position. If this happens, the dot is not inside the cell, but on the outside somewhere. Of course, if you get the stain right, you don't get many dots of stain precipitate.
3) I wish these were colour pics... The colour of inclusions is crucial to figuring out what they are. Babesia apparently stains with pale blue cytoplasm, and often isn't circular, but more pear-shaped. Yes, you are also looking out for a small chromatin dot on the edge of the "ring"... which is supposed to be red, but to be honest, I've never seen a babesia pic where the dot is red.
I'm always keen to hear people's comments... I'm still learning, and will always have an open mind. But goddamn it, having found these things in my blood smears, I can't get anyone to even look at the pictures, so still can't get diagnosed :-( At the end of the day, all I want is to get well and get my life back, and UK specialists seem to be doing everything they can to *prevent* that happening!
Grr. Possibly so close to an answer, yet no closer to getting well.
Posts: 19 | From London | Registered: Dec 2006
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posted
Well, that makes me dissapointed. I know he prepared the slide and it sat in the fridge for a week before the test was run.
I wish that one person here who had the test that came back normal would post a pic.
Posts: 310 | From TN | Registered: Jan 2007
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kelmo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8797
posted
I couldn't see babesia in the photos you posted. My daughter's blood smear was very "clumpy". She is really having a hypercoagulation problem.
But, in several cells, you can see the black organisms. Some aren't completely round and prolific like Jason's because she was on abx when the smear was done. They are more crescent shape.
However, her ANA titers had dropped to 1:116 with her bartonella treatment, then went back up to 1:640 at the start of babs treatment.
The last blood test showed another drop in the ANA to 1:160 after two months on mepron/zith.
As far as the question to the bartonella strain. It's an unknown and an educated guess on Dr. F's part. He has tried levoquan with some patients and it didn't do much for them. Either he wasn't doing it right, or we have different strains that come up from Mexico.
Rifampin/zith was a good combo for my daughter and she would like to go back on it after babs treatment just to make sure she knocked it down.
I'm going to be running the tests on me this week with Dr. F, as I have been having night seizures and neuro tests show microvascular degeneration but the neurologist said it was "normal". With my history of all the other viruses (EBV Parvo, double viral pneumonia), it's worth a check.
If I can figure out how to post my daughter's blood photo on here, I will.
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