posted
There have been several discussions on the animal/pet groups I am in about ticks and lyme disease. For some reason, it appears the testing and diagnosis of pets is different than in humans. By that, I mean no one has said anything about the tests being inaccurate and having high false negatives as our tests do.
I went to one of the web sites mentioned in a post, and they have testing available for lyme plus all the relevant coinfections.
Is their testing more accurate? If so, why don't we find a veterinarian to draw blood and use the same labs??
Posts: 142 | From Flyover Country | Registered: Aug 2004
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GiGi
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Could you mention the website you went to find this information, please?
Thank you.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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GiGi
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Could you mention the website you went to find this information, please?
Thank you.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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The primary advantage animals have over people (with TBDs or anything else) is that their doctors will treat them based on symptoms. They don't have to worry about insurance companies, and their governing bodies are less like "big brother."
The tests may be better--maybe because dogs, for example, are better than people at making detectable antibodies.
But before you think that we, as people, are getting the raw deal, consider this: recently my husband has seen two dogs with babesia. one had a positive test result from a vet lab that claims to specialize in vector borne disease. The other was negative.
My husband found babesia on a blood smear slide with the one that was negative, but not on the one that was positive. Maybe this was due to length of infection.
It still depends on the diagnosic skill and dedication of the doctor. And a balance of what was taught, and consideration that part of that just might not be accurate.
Posts: 353 | From Florida boonies | Registered: Nov 2005
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GiGi
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The protozoa may be hiding anywhere in the body and not show up on a slide (blood). We had same results from Bowen, negative Babesia, while we knew full well with ART that I was still carrying it massively and the symptoms to go along with it.
Smart bugs. And we need to stop poisoning our earth.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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cactus
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My dog's vet feels there are often false negatives for dogs, also, even with the labs doing specialized testing.
She offered to send bloodwork to a lab in NC which is supposed to specialize in canine TBI testing (I did not get the name, sorry), but chose to treat based on symptoms and our dog's "family" history (meaning he's been everywhere I have, so has potentially been exposed to the same ticks).
Nebula, what is the treatment for dogs with babs? Is there any available? I was under the impression that there was not, or that the cost was too high. Any info would be appreciated - thanks.
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Cactus, Interesting about the false negatives. It appears that the pet population is in the same danger, as most people are completely unaware of lyme symptoms, and may attribute their pet's illness to something else.
It's strange that when I took my dog (that has since died of cancer) to the vet, he asked about the possibility of a tick bite and lyme. As a whole, they seem to be MUCH more aware than doctors.
Posts: 142 | From Flyover Country | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
up
Posts: 925 | From California | Registered: Sep 2004
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cactus
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notime, I agree - many vets seem to be more aware of Lyme, and sometimes more open to longer term treatment.
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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My husband just finished treating a Pit Bull. This poor dog had been used for "bait" by people running a dog fighting ring.
Babesia is a growing problem with Pit Bulls, because of the blood exchange involved in fighting. Perhaps the breed is susceptible, too. It's very sad. Puppies can be born with it. And, of course, there's ticks, which we certainly have in abundance here!
As a rule, dogs get two different strains of the protozoa (although WE know there are many many strains!) One is considered to be next to impossible to cure.
It's terrible that people have perverted the ownership of dogs, who are supposed to be loving pets and companions, with such a despicable practice as using their lives for gambling.
The current treatment protocol in the US for treating Babesia is Mepron and azithromycin. We had to get the Mepron from a veterinary compounding pharmacy. It cost $780.
My husband only called one local pharmacy. They told him they didn't have any but they could see about ordering it. Our regular supplier doesn't carry it and the company we use for unusual medicine told my husband they weren't allowed--by the manufacturer--to sell to vets.
We're guessing because it's used to treat AIDS, but, honestly, we don't know. The Mepron we got was in dose-measured sealed packets. Apparently, there have been problems with criminal tampering with the medicine sold in bottles, it's been diluted and sold for the same cost.
This dog was very anemic, had terrible skin, and was partially lame. He's now like a different dog he's so much better.
We use a North Carolina veterinary lab for vector-borne testing.
I don't know what a cheaper treatment would be for dogs. This was my husband's first experiment with treating Babesia. He will probably bill the State of Florida, because the dog is evidence, or a "witness" if you like.
Something else has to be effective, though, because most people certainly can't afford to pay that much, for themselves, let alone their dogs.
Posts: 353 | From Florida boonies | Registered: Nov 2005
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Marnie
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Dogs are better at forming antibodies than people because of their dog FOODS.
Look closely.
Give your dogs The Missing Link AND Angels Eyes.
Look closely at WHY.
Your vet husband should be interested in the following:
J S Afr Vet Assoc. 1976 Mar: 47 (1): 29-33 The diagnosis and treatment of acid-base deranged dogs infected with Babesia canis. Malherbe WD, Immelman A, Haupt WH, Walzl HJ. A study was made of the acid-base status of Babesia canis infected dogs judged unlikely to recover after specific babesicidal drug therapy despite the use of blood transfusion and other conventional supportive measures. Such cases were invariabley acidotic and responded well and often dramatically to supportive intravenous sodium bicarbonate administration. Elevated blood urea nitrogen, also responded gratifyingly to this procedure. The rationale is discussed in some detail.
Might be problematic if co-infected with Bb however, since Bb's motility depends on NaCl which it is conveniently transporting into the cells via glutamate.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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cactus
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Thanks, Nebula. I didn't realize that a Mepron combo could be used in dogs, although I knew it would be an expensive proposition.
What a difference it made for the pit bull, though! Wow. I hope s/he finds a better life, with a loving family soon. What a sad story.
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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Greatcod
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posted
While pets are move lovable than people, their perforamce as lab technicans often falls short of what a dedicated human can accomplish. Except of course, at Imugen, where human performace in the the laboratory invariably lags behind what a lobotomized Labrador could do.
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5dana8
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I don't know if this helps but here's a good link to a site that may answer your question:
-------------------- 5dana8 Posts: 4432 | From some where over the rainbow | Registered: Sep 2005
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Beverly
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Hi all,
Very intresting thread notime2work, I have often wondered the same thing.
That is such a horrible story Nebula2005, I feel so bad for the dog.
I think my one cat has lyme, and have put him on abx. He actually runs a fever, and I can tell when he is not feeling good. I really feel bad for all the animals who are sick and no one is helping them.
Posts: 6638 | From Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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cactus
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Nebula, would you mind sharing the name of the NC lab that you've used? You can pm it, if that's more comfortable.
We've treated and re-treated my oldest dog, and he's still suffering. He's 14, but he's my doggie soul-mate!
Our current vet isn't sure what to do next, she's mentioned specialized testing, so if you have a reliable lab, maybe I can ask her to use the same one...
Thanks, sorry to get off-topic... Cactus
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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I think it would probably be okay to post this--it's a lab that any vet could use. Our regular vet lab (which is headquartered in New York) even sends samples to them.
A pathologist at THAT lab, Antech, found cytozoanosis in the blood of our cat who died from it.
The test was Babesia PCR.
North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine Department of Population Health and Pathobiology 4700 Hillsborough Street Raleigh, NC 27606
Their customer service number is 919-513-6067
There is a North Carolina Lyme organization that was started by a vet. I don't know what she thinks of this lab.
It's been a challenge convincing my husband that I can learn anything about medicine from fellow Lymenetters. He can't help it--he's a doctor.
He's come home from conferences with some very peculiar information, like one speaker he listened to said that Lyme Disease is mostly spread by soft ticks. hahahahaha
And recently, someone he heard speak mentioned using a C6 peptide test for Lyme as being too new to be on the market. I pulled out my large folder of blood work and showed him that I had this done in 2006, and it wasn't new AND it's been proven to be unreliable.
So unless there's a NEW C6 peptide test?. . .
And when I first figured out that the long-ago tick bite I got was the source of my tinnitis and facial nerve spasms and pain, he got on the internet and produced a web page about Meniere's Disease. That bit of "help" nearly sent me over the edge.
It takes a lot of patience to be married. He's coming around. He's been witness to more than one incidence of the wretched stupid rude,lazy doctoring I've been subjected to.
cactus, I hope you and your vet can figure out how to help your best friend dog.
And Marnie--I will pass on the info about pH imbalance with babesiosis treatment, thank you.
Greatcod--maybe chimps in white coats?
The dog my husband treated had Babesia gibsoni. There certainly are false negatives in animal testing, too.
Posts: 353 | From Florida boonies | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
And Dana--thank you for your link!
Posts: 353 | From Florida boonies | Registered: Nov 2005
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cactus
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Nebula, thanks so much for the lab info - I'll take it to my vet & find out if it's the same lab she mentioned. I don't know what we can do at this stage, and at his age, but it's worth a try.
We all have a lot to learn, and I can imagine that it would be hard for your husband to see you learning on the internet - it's a source of friction in my extended family, too!
Take care, Cactus
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
The Central Florida Research Lab in Florida will run a test on an animal for you. The test is proving to be very accurate, as it is a blood antigen test and detects the actual antigen Bb in the blood.
Alex
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