cactus
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posted
Anyone try this? Was it useful? What are the drawbacks?
Thanks for any info, Cactus
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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sparkle7
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I had them awhile ago. It just helped temporarily, then, not at all. BIG needles...
I guess it depends on what the problem is. I thought I had fibromyalgia back then.
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cactus
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Big needles, you say??? Yikes.
Thanks for sharing your experience with me.
Did you get relief for a few days? Weeks, maybe, or am I being too hopeful? I am desperate for some relief from on-going neck and back pain that triggers migraines - well, it's one piece of the migraine puzzle, but not all of it.
I do have Lyme and company (have been treating for 3 years), but probably also have neck/upper back issues.
Not sure the pay-off would be worth facing the big needles, though!
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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ByronSBell 2007
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Massage and trigger point therapy will be best, they wont go away until the lyme is gone or reduced.... I have tried alot of those things an no success.
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bejoy
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I think those injections are best for nerve damage issues.
I think Lyme sufferers get muscle spasms and congested cerebrospinal fluid in the head (pseudotumor cerebri) more regularly than nerve damage.
I have found that craniosacral therapy and lymph drainage helped me the best for pain management.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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kgg
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My son had an annual muscle spasm in his back every March. His naturopath/chiropractor would give him a treatment and an injection of Magnesium into the muscle that was in spasm.
It helped almost immediately and would not return for a year. March is a hard month for him.
IMHO, I would give it a try.
Best, Karen
Posts: 1687 | From Maine | Registered: Jun 2004
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tdtid
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posted
Before my diagnosis of lyme, I too went this path to help with some of the pain from "fibro" and "degenerative disc disease"...two of the diagnosis's I was getting for why I was in so much pain.
I actually had done the trigger point injections but do think there was a small bit of steroid in them that I did feel worked, but SMALL SMALL dose since when they did the epidural steroid injection in my neck, that's when all heck broke loose and it went neurological...so not the right answer. Atleast I got my lyme diagnosis when they thought I had had a stroke. Grrrrrr.
But also in this path, I had done some of the injections without steroids and didn't find them to work for very long at all. It would take the pain away for short periods, but for me personally, it just wasn't the answer.
Also tried the IV's that would pump your body full of things like magnesium and such but I think we all have to keep experimenting until we find a way to best relieve some of this pain. I do think that it does settle down SOME once you get the right lyme or co infection treatment, but would love to hear if anyone has found something that DOES work.
Cathy
-------------------- "To Dream The Impossible Dream" Man of La Mancha Posts: 2638 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2006
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cactus
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posted
Thanks so much to all of you for the input - you are the best!
I am really on the fence about these injections, and leaning more toward bodywork at this point, so all of your insight is very much appreciated.
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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daise
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posted
Trigger point injections are the last, last, last resort.
That's if you actually have trigger points causing pain.
Not all muscle pain is caused by trigger points, for example, Lyme disease!
I saw the best trigger point myofascial therapist in town when I really did have trigger points, caused by severe hypothyroidism.
We got rid of all those and I was left with a "pattern in my muscles" (as the therapist said) which turned out to be Lyme.
lymeinhell
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posted
I did them regularly for a few months early on in treatment (I believe I went every 7-10 days). I'd get anywhere from 6-10 shots in the back of my skull and shoulders. To me, they were a God-send.
Big needles?? Nah... Just think - Pain relief and blissful numbness for a while.
They helped tremendously, although early on, the effects were temporary (which IMHO beats no relief at all), and seemed also to have a cumulative effect... Spazms, if they returned, were less painful and severe after a treatment.
So worth it and my insurance covered a limited number of shots (big shocker!!)
-------------------- Julie _ _ ___ _ _ lymeinhell
Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed. Posts: 2258 | From a better place than I was 11 yrs ago | Registered: Sep 2003
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cactus
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Thanks, daise, I didn't know about the hypothyroid connection to trigger points.
That is very interesting, and yet another piece of the puzzle for me, too. We are just getting my hypothyroidism under control (fingers crossed).
lyminhell, it is wonderful to hear you got some relief, even if short-lived. Pain relief does sound blissful.
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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sparkle7
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posted
It's funny how different we all are.
If I remember correctly, I got an injection to numb out the area before the trigger point shots. I'm not generally afraid of needles... so, it wasn't a big deal. I just didn't find that it helped much.
I'm having very bad back pain right now - so, I can relate. I have tried various kinds of body work. Very vigorous body work made me alot worse. Some of the therapists felt that they were being helpful but I ended up in bed for several days after. It may cause toxins to overwhelm the body since they can be released during the massage. Crainal sacral or lymphatic drainage may be helpful but I haven't gotten around to trying it, recently. Also, foot massage may be a good option but I haven't done it yet, either. It's kind of expensive & the relief doesn't last all that long.
I have found that oxycotin or vicodin are the most helpful remedies. I really try to use natural alternatives but those drugs are the only thing that seem to work for me. I also use something called an Alpha-stim. It's sort of like a Tens unit but has a different type of electrical wave. It does give some relief but it's not a cure-all.
I'm experimenting with hot & cold therapies these days. To my surprise, I found that going into a cold tub seems to help. I go to a sauna place that has several temperatures of hot & cold tubs. I think the hot tubs & sauna help with the detox & the cold tub helps with possible neuropathy. I don't know what is causing my pain exactly but between the hot & cold therapies - I do get some relief. It only costs $20, too! I would say it's just as much relief as any trigger point injections were.
If we could find out the exact cause of the pain, it would probably help to target a treatment. I've read that the spirochetes can damage the collagen. They also give off toxins with can be damaging. So, it's hard to know what the exact cause of the pain is unless you can find some expert. It can also be herxing, neuropathy, or something unrelated to Lyme. It's hard to tell.
I did try Cymbalta but I decided not to continue with it. I didn't like the side effects & it's fairly expensive.
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daise
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Cactus,
I counted over 62 trigger points, just on my right side. I got rid of a lot of those on my own by using The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook by Claire and Amber Davies. Maybe it's at your library. It is the very best.
The illustrations are excellent. But I had a painful locked shoulder and couldn't get to them all.
So I looked for the best myofascial therapist in town. He knew they were from severe hypothyroidism because many were located in places where trigger points aren't normally found.
I had a lot of those buggers. That also points to having had bad hypothyroidism.
He wouldn't start therapy unless I was using T3, along with T4. I already was! So we began. I'm glad I had his therapy. Shows you how bad-off I was.
Do you know about T3? It's found in, for example, Armour Thyroid or Cytomel. A great book is, Living Well With Hypothyroidism, 2005 edition, by Mary J. Shomon. It may be at your library.
She also has an excellent search site: www.thyroid-info.com which ties in to her about.com site.
Epidural Steroid Injections Limited In Treating Back Pain, New Guideline Finds
ScienceDaily (Mar. 6, 2007) -- A guideline developed by the American Academy of Neurology finds epidural steroid injections play a limited role in providing short-term pain relief for lower back pain that radiates down a leg, and do not provide long-term pain relief. The guideline is published in the March 6, 2007, issue of Neurology�, the scientific journal of the American Academy of Neurology.
To develop the guideline, the authors analyzed scientific studies on the topic. According to the guideline, epidural steroid injections may provide some short-term pain relief between two and six weeks after injection, but the average amount of relief is small. "While some pain relief is a positive result in and of itself, the extent of leg and back pain relief from epidural steroid injections, on the average, fell short of the values typically viewed as clinically meaningful," said lead author Carmel Armon, MD, MHS, Chief, Division of Neurology, with Baystate Medical Center in Springfield, Massachusetts, and Professor of Neurology at Tufts University School of Medicine in Boston, Massachusetts. Armon is also a Fellow member of the American Academy of Neurology.
The guideline also found epidural steroid injections usually did not help patients "buy time" to avoid surgery, or provide long-term pain relief beyond three months. Their routine use for these purposes is not recommended.
"The use of epidural steroid injections to treat chronic back pain is increasing over time despite limited quality data," said Armon. "Recent figures show 1999 Medicare Part B claims for lumbar epidural steroid injections were $49.9 million, for 40.4 million covered individuals."
In addition, the authors also found insufficient evidence to use epidural steroid injections to treat radicular cervical pain, or neck pain.
Armon says the review was limited by the small number of high-quality scientific studies on epidural steroid injections, and further well-designed studies are needed to determine their effectiveness.
Adapted from materials provided by American Academy of Neurology.
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cactus
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Sparkle and daise, thanks so much.
daise, thanks for the link and the book recommendations - I will read them.
62 trigger points on one side - ouch!
I haven't met the learning curve on hypothyroid issues yet, it's time to do some reading. I'm taking levothyroid currently (T4 only, I think?), and needing to up the dose every few months.
Making the connection between hypothyroid and trigger points is a great help.
Great article, sparkle. Do you think it applies to non-steroidal injections, too? My LLMD was very specific about only non-steroidal injections for the usual Lymie reasons.
Since being in Lyme & co treatment (3 years, approx), I haven't been able to tolerate vigorous bodywork, either. Hot and cold therapies help to some extent, although I've only explored ice packs vs hot packs - the water therapy options are not available in my immediate area. You are fortunate!
I do take cymbalta, for peripheral neuropathy. It has helped with that issue, but not with neck/back pain. Not looking forward to getting off of it though.
Figuring out the exact cause of the pain is a tough one.
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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daise
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posted
Hi cactus,
The reason my myofascial therapist wouldn't work with me without my using T3 was that the trigger points would hail right back. Getting Armour or Cytomel is a chore, but yes, it can be done.
This is the realm of alternative doctors. But I couldn't at all afford one. I brought a book to my PCP called, What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Hypothyroidism, by Ken Blanchard, MD PhD.
I held it up and pointed to it saying, "He's a doctor--an endocrinologist." I explained that he has worked with many thyroid patients and has become known for that.
I figured, My PCP probably won't bark if I show a book from a fellow doctor (Mary Shomon is not a doctor.)
I said that he found that a tiny amount of T3, compounded for time release, taken along with your T4 prescription (Levothroid, Levoxyl, etc.) can do wonders. No need to reduce the T4 med.
Armour Thyroid is dessicated pig's thyroid. It's been taken for over a century.
T4 is long lasting and is stored in your body. T3 is used right away. You notice T3 in your head, right away.
Armour contains, in 1/4 grain: 2.2 mcg of T3 and 9 mcg of T4.
The prescription is written like this: 1/4 grain (or the numerical amount) compounded for time-release. Some docs don't know how to write that prescription, but you can gently tell them so as not to blast their ego to the Moon.
The Armour prescription is taken to a compounding pharmacist (see your yellow pages ads under pharmacists.) Insurance rarely pays for a med when it has been compounded. It's about $30 for three months worth.
I took the precious Armour and 45 minutes later the Sun rose in my head ... though it was a mighty foggy Lyme Sun!
If you want to see if more will help you, you can inform your doctor (always, or they will lose respect for you) that you wish to experiment. Say that you'll stop taking Levothroid (or Levoxyl) for 2 days. Then you'll take 2, 1/4 grain capsules of Armour.
The test is in how you feel. Does it make you feel better--especially in your brain? If so, then yes, your body and brain can tolerate this extra T3.
Resume taking T4 along with it and ask your PCP for a prescription for 1/2 a grain of Armour, compounded for time-release. 6 weeks later you'll need a TSH test. C
At that time you may need to cut back a little bit on the T4, if you need to, but not the Armour.
For example, if you need to and according to what your doctor figures, you might take Levothroid every day--but skip it two days a month, or whatever. You might point that out to your doc.
TSH: the new testing range as of over 4 years ago is actually .3 - 3 as per the national organization for endocrinologists (whatever it's called!)
Yet most labs refuse to go by that range. Also, if taking thyroid meds, the TSH needs to be about .3 - 2, probably the lower range. In addition, it's how you feel--ask yourself if you could use a little more T3 or T4 or a little less.
Your thyroid affects every cell in your body, from the tip of your head, clear down to your big, right toe. When your thyroid meds are optimized, that can only help you get rid of infections, like Lyme.
sparkle7
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posted
re: Epidural Steroid Injections Limited In Treating Back Pain, New Guideline Finds
Yes. It's probably similar results without the steroids.
You do have to keep in mind that some of these findings may be influenced by requirements towards the insurance companies.
They save money by giving less treatments... There can be conflicts of interest in any study - especially if it helps the insurance companies.
In this case, my personal experience would concur with the findings.
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valymemom
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cactus
I have some practitioner names I can give you in northern VA if you want to send me an email.
janis
Posts: 1240 | From Centreville,VA | Registered: Mar 2005
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cactus
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daise - thanks for the welcome! And thank you for taking the time to spell out the thyroid issues and how to ask my doc for help. That's exactly what I needed right now.
sparkle, I agree about the influence of ins companies on the findings. A definite possibility.
Janis - I would love a list of local practitioners. Can we send pm's yet?
Slowly turning into a rock, cactus
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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daise
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posted
Cactus,
One more thing: Lyme often attacks the thyroid and that causes hypothyroidism.
If your thyroid is only a little off, taking thyroid meds and thyroid supportive supplements (along with antibiotics) may cure your thyroid.
Therefore, as you continue taking your thyroid meds, if your heart starts racing, pulse is up, maybe headache, maybe sweating, etc (making you HYPERthyroid,) then this may be what is happening. Your thyroid has healed and you don't need thyroid meds or thyroid meds amount needs to be reduced.
Or not. Maybe those symptoms are due to someting else. If that happens, check with your doc for tests: TSH, Free T4 and Free T3.
I was severely hypothyroid: TSH 75. It has healed a little bit, enough to reduce T4! Yay!
Hey everybody reading this: Hypothyroidism is common and epidemic in the general population. It is extra so for those of us with Lyme.
It causes a long list (rediculous) of signs and symptoms.
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