posted
There's no way to tell! I would be slightly skeptical. At least he's not saying 80-90%!
editing to add....
Hold on!!!! CURE???? I'm VERY skeptical.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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METALLlC BLUE
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That's based on his results over the last 10 years.
Dr. Z. states that the rate of success is 60% who become symptom free, and don't relapse during the follow-up time-frame. I believe the time frame is 6-12 months, but I can't recall.
Then another 20% improve but remain symptomatic (He recommends they continue treatment beyond the standard treatment protocol if they continue to make progress even though they aren't entirely symptom free)
The last 20% see no results what-so-ever.
This is from his book: Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
METALLlC BLUE
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posted
Here is the read of the information I have on him presently:
"Z honed his Lyme protocols in Dutchess County as a member of Dr. H of NY Lyme disease staff. Z, a practitioner of both Chinese and Western medicine for 40 years and an assistant professor at a Chinese medical school in Shanghai for 22 years, has been in the US since 1980, when he was awarded a WHO fellowship to Harvard Medical School.
He has also been a visiting professor of medicine at the University of California, Davis. Currently Z conducts research, treats patients in Westchester and Manhattan, and lectures at medical schools throughout the US. During a recent telephone interview, Dr. Z said he believes that Chinese herbs can help reduce or eliminate Lyme disease symptoms and that PCR tests have turned negative in patients undergoing herbal treatment of Lyme and its co-infections. "Particularly for people who are unable to take antibiotics," he said, "herbal treatment is a viable alternative."
Z is quick to point out that the extensive use of antibiotics for Lyme disease is controversial. In a long online article on Lyme disease, Z discusses his misgivings of the current antibiotic treatment of Lyme. Quoting Dr L of NY, a Lyme researcher, he writes that relapses may follow the use of potent antibiotics due to their inability to eradicate the pathogen from the body in some patients.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
posted
Why do 20% not see anything from the treatment??
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
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METALLlC BLUE
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Could be a lot of reasons. They might not be adhering to treatment, they may be using other medications (Immunosuppresants is a big one, or meds or foods that inhibit absorption), they may not have an infection at all, or perhaps a strain that doesn't respond. They may have heavy metal poisoning, or detoxification issues which haven't been addressed, they may have hormonal problems, or another infectious or autoimmune disorder which is unresponsive to the treatment being used for Lyme Disease.
There are a lot of reasons. Dr. Z looks for all those things, but apparently the protocol keeps evolving he's said. Patients get better as they investigate further which combinations of which herbal therapies are most appropriate.
Dr. H is aware of this, and thus treats all of these issues. Dr. H himself however has noted that some people respond incredibly to Dr. Z's herbs, while some show no response at all. Those were his words at his office, so I suspect he's seeing the same results himself.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
"Z honed his Lyme protocols in Dutchess County as a member of Dr. H of NY Lyme disease staff. Z, a practitioner of both Chinese and Western medicine for 40 years and an assistant professor at a Chinese medical school in Shanghai for 22 years, has been in the US since 1980, when he was awarded a WHO fellowship to Harvard Medical School. "
This is strange as one would think that in their 10 years of working together they would have settled upon some regimen. Why after all that time would Dr. H choose almost no Chinese herbs and switch purely to the Cowden protocol? Talk about a divergence of opinion? How could Dr. H not have seen Dr. Z's results? Or Dr. Z not see Dr. H's? Strange that they found no common ground? JL
Posts: 268 | From new york city | Registered: May 2008
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METALLlC BLUE
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quote: This is strange as one would think that in their 10 years of working together they would have settled upon some regimen. Why after all that time would Dr. H choose almost no Chinese herbs and switch purely to the Cowden protocol? Talk about a divergence of opinion? How could Dr. H not have seen Dr. Z's results? Or Dr. Z not see Dr. H's? Strange that they found no common ground? JL
While speaking to Dr. H, he felt that the Cowden protocol, based on his experience demonstrated 80% improvement in most patients, that the finding he experienced himself, was worthwhile enough to go with that as the primary treatment. He was quick to say that the Z Protocol, which he does use, works extremely well too, but often it is best used by patients who have not responded as thoroughly as he'd like to the Cowden, nor with antibiotic treatment.
Dr. H will switch to the Z Protocol in cases which Detoxification, allergies, side-effects and other issues prevent patients from taking any antibiotics. He uses portions of the Z protocol to support various parts of people's individual routines as well. (He'll mix antibiotics -- often aggressively, with the Z Protocol."
It is clear that to him, the herbs are strong enough to replace antibiotics, but that it's cheaper and easier for the patient (With insurance) to take the medications. The medications are stronger in general as well, but the risks are higher as well.
Dr. Z has gone the route of his own protocol to hone it, I think. To improve upon it. Remember, his book only recently came out. It was about 12 months ago.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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1. Dr. Z will NEVER use the word "cure" - I've been in his seminars - I fought with him over his reluctance to tell me I could be "cured" - he is one who will never use that word, believe me.
Proof of a cure is nearly impossible, but many do experience much improvement.
Some may have to guard their health more vigilantly than others for a while, but if the symptoms are much relieved for a period of time, that is seen as successful treatment.
About "successful" treatment:
Just as some don't see success with the ILADS Treatment guidelines, each person's case is unique. For early cases, in a heartbeat, I'd run to a ILADS' LLMD who also had thorough knowledge of both Dr. Z and of Buhner's research.
Actually, it would be ideal if such a doctor could be in every neighborhood of every town. But, that is not the reality at this time.
As for why some don't get all better from Dr. Z's - or from any particular protocol:
Many don't get treatment as soon as would have been best. Some have been ill for years.
Some are treating for just lyme, but many may have any mix of co-infections.
Many have been on numerous abx, but not always the correct ones or the correct combinations or for the correct time.
Many can't stick to the protocol for matters of allicin's odor or the cost of the protocol (which is tons cheaper than the abx route, but still not easy if someone simply does not have the money).
[BTW, there is an alternative to the allicin, but the allicin is noted as having the best success - but I have done better when I've been able to be on the alternate one.]
Also, many may not have the best self-care habits (drink or smoke or a "twinkie" diet).
And, some may try to mix and match pharmaceuticals not intended for use with this protocol.
A patient's work or other conditions may impose extraordinary stress. There is no way around the fact that lyme/TBD require extraordinary measures and attention to adrenal matters, etc.
And, some try to mix and match on their own, going back and forth. This is a carefully researched path. While individual adjustments are necessary, these are best done in consult with a doctor familiar with this.
There are just so many variables and so much responsibility involved in any plan chosen.
---
With 3 TBD dx by Igenex in '97, it was years before I could get any treatment by someone who knew anything about lyme.
I've done the best when I could be on the full protocol of Dr. Z's. I wish I had known about this from the beginning but glad I at least found it - through another doctor who was afraid to treat me.
But, as money is a factor, I've gone back and forth. This is not the best way.
I saw dozens of his hepatitis patients (and one other lyme patient) at a seminar. The people with Hep. C were doing fantastically well. The other guy with lyme said he had gotten to 90% and just could not seem to get past that, so he spoke with Dr. Z about that.
The protocol also is not all that is needed in all cases. Again, so many variables.
I've done a ton of research and think that Dr. Z - and Buhner, too (with a much different approach) - both have a tremendous amount to offer.
And, Dr. Z's protocol is still evolving, as are the plans of all good lyme doctors. Dr. Z has increased the dose of allicin according to a patient's weight. He wants to know about how patients do and he makes adjustments accordingly - as any good doctor would.
--
Also of note is the work of Buhner in "Healing Lyme . . . "
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[ 12. August 2008, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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"I've done the best when I could be on the full protocol of Dr. Z's. I wish I had known about this from the beginning but glad I at least found it - through another doctor who was afraid to treat me."
How far into lyme were you when you started with Dr. Z? If (like me) you only discovered lyme 6 years later, would you go against Dr. Z and mix Abx in?
Note: My doc has not started me on abx yet as he feels I have Babesia. As of now I'm only able to handle 100mg of allergy research Art and five drops of cryptolepis. More that that makes me hit the bed. Afraid that Abx will make heart symptoms- too fast too slow- with air hunger, worse
1. cryptolepis 2. artemisinin
Posts: 268 | From new york city | Registered: May 2008
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METALLlC BLUE
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Can you tell me what cryptolepis is? You can mix Antibiotics with Dr. Z's protocol. Dr. Z in-fact mentions doing so in the second portion of his treatment, if the patient isn't responding sufficiently.
I'm not sure of his stance in mixing before, or anything of that sort, but I know Dr. H mixes them.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Dr. Z does incorporate abx for some patients. You would need to talk with him about that for the particulars in your case. He is very available to discuss options for whatever will work - as long as the liver is adequately protected.
Lyme Disease and Modern Chinese Medicine (Paperback) by Dr. QingCai Zhang (Author), Yale Zhang (Author)
you can access his web site through www.hepapro.com or try www.sinomedresearch.org and use "clinic" and then "clinic" for the passwords or call Hepapro.
"While speaking to Dr. H, he felt that the Cowden protocol, based on his experience demonstrated 80% improvement in most patients, that the finding he experienced himself, was worthwhile enough to go with that as the primary treatment."
Sorry was that 80% without Abx? Or in combination?
Posts: 268 | From new york city | Registered: May 2008
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Keebler
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posted
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jl123 - you asked:
How far into lyme were you when you started with Dr. Z? If (like me) you only discovered lyme 6 years later, would you go against Dr. Z and mix Abx in?
I had been very ill since 1990. Dx with 3 TBD in '97 . . . did herbs with an ND whom I thought knew about lyme. He did not.
Never had a LLMD, but Dr. Z's protocol was suggested by an MD who had been here for a short time was being run out of the state (as the Medical Board here says we have no lyme and therefore, no doctor is allowed to treat advanced lyme.)
It took me years before I could afford Dr. Z's protocol and then never long enough. However, I've done enough support herbs to know that Dr. Z's really went far beyond mere support.
I had fewer seizures, less pain and less other neuro symptoms when on Dr. Z' protocol.
You asked if I would go against him and use abx. At one point, he suggested it.
As for "going against" any doctor's protocol. Either do it or don't.
If you choose to use some of this and some of that, it may work out - with lots of forethought. But, you would no longer be on anyone's particular protocol.
they have designed their plans with much thought. Most will talk to you, and individually make changes, according to their knowledge and your symptoms.
We cannot possible have all the knowledge they have (although we are miles ahead of regular doctors, we need to be very clear that there is much we do not know).
I never could handle the ARG' artemisinin. And Hepapro's is still a strong treatment. None of this is a walk in the park by any stretch.
If you have a doctor who has suggested the combo below (that you are taking), be in communication with them. If no doctor has suggested this, I would not mix them.
1. cryptolepis 2. artemisinin
I've added the links for 3 books that I hope you can read. Each one is a bit different, but all 3, together, should be considered before you decide on a plan.
I'm sorry I can't clear this up for you. I'm not an expert, just a patient who has made a lot of mistakes and found some good answers - but I'm still trying to figure out how to put it all together, too.
Just remember, if something goes wrong with herbal medicine, with such a mix, you won't know what is what. We have a responsibility to the doctors who stick their necks out for us to treat herbs with respect.
All that said, I know you are trying to find the answer and I hope it becomes clearer to you. Remember, that if art. is hard, you might read Buhner's work on cryptolepis.
One wonderful thing about complementary medicine is that there are often, many choices that can accomplish the desired effect.
Good luck.
========
Another herb that I've come across that has a citation for babesia treatment is Stone Breaker (Chanca Piedra).
I can't find that article right now, and it's not mentioned anywhere else that I know of . . . but it shows hope.
You might enjoy reading this - but, again, all this is not in context but just in hope at this moment.
Thanks. "I never could handle the ARG' artemisinin"
Sorry is "ARG" allergy research? If so why do you think it was too strong or do you think its just low quality? thanks, JL
Posts: 268 | From new york city | Registered: May 2008
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Keebler
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Yes, but some people do okay with the ARG's Art. I just had severe reactions. I think the quality is probably fine, but I needed a more comprehensive formula/protocol. Or, for some other reason, I just did better with another product.
I am very sensitive to nearly all meds - and - my liver does not metabolize a certain classification of chemical well. As I deal with two kinds of chronic porphyria, anything that goes through the liver detox pathway for Cytochrome P-450 drugs, I have trouble with.
Artemesia uses that clearance pathway. So, maybe that is it, but as I could not get any other treatment for babesia (despite a positive test and symptoms), art. was all I could do.
I did it but it was hard, but I did far better on Dr. Z's with the full protocol for 40 days - repeated at a later time.
Art. is never a stand-alone treatment. And the full protocol of Dr. Z's has formulas to help the liver and to help in other ways. Both he and Buhner have really thought through all aspects of this (although they use different formulas). I admire both of them.
Whomever you are working with - be sure to address your questions and concerns to them. If you are not satisfied with the answers, ask again - and then, if not satisfied, ask elsewhere. But, first, give your current doctor a couple of chances.
Again, good luck. Take care, and take a nice break, if you can. This is a lot of work.
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