Topic: Does an ear fluttering sensation on Artemisiae signal toxicity?
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
Hey all. I have described this "ear fluttering" sensation before...where it sounds like a bird is flapping its wing in my ear and I can almost actually "feel" it too.
I have gotten this symptom from artemesia. I am currently taking Zhang's. I was getting really bad high pitched buzzing from taking even one pill.
So now I only take 1/2 a pill, twice daily, to avoid this. (i open the capsule up and divide it out)
But now, I am getting the fluttering sensation, but no high pitched buzzing.
Anyone else get this? Does it mean I should stop the pills, since this is happening even at such a small dose?
Does this signal toxicity?
Thanks!
[ 05. August 2008, 04:41 AM: Message edited by: Hoosiers51 ]
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Lymeorsomething
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16359
posted
Who knows? It could be a side or a Herx reaction. It's hard to tell sometimes.
I know I had the identical with Plaquenil, but I waited it out and it resolved in a day or two...
I'd check with your doc but you may want to ride it out for a day or two to see if it resolves...
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I have occasionally had something similar to what you describe. You will think it strange, but it would generally only happen if I was leafing through a file or stack of papers. It never occurred to me it could relate to a tick- borne illness.
This has not happened for a while, so maybe the antibiotics took care of it.
Posts: 10 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
I've had this happen once or twice before. I wasn't on any treatment for Lyme & Co at the time, so it wasn't that. I don't know what causes/caused it.
NanaDubo
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Member # 14794
posted
I definitely had this going on along with a lot of ear pain. I describe mine as sounding like a woodpecker was tapping in my ear at night.
I attributed it to Azithromycin, stopped taking it for a few days and it went away. I take Zhangs Artemisiae and have continued with that, no tapping or pain so far.
Posts: 1129 | From Maine | Registered: Feb 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Some ear fluttering can be the eustachian (sP?) tubes getting a bit clogged . . . see of yawning, swallowing, etc. help.
otherwise, you can do a search above for an extensive link for ear stuff.
TINNUTIS:
I am away from home so don't have the link handy and the computer I'm using here won't let me do the search for some reason.
Ginger or ginger tea may help if phelgm is part of the cause. Houttuynia extract helped for me, too.
posted
When I took Zhang's Art. my LLMD told me to stop it immediately if I became off balanced, or had anything with my ears.
I wish I remembered more, but this was 3 years ago.
I do remember him saying some of his patients develop Neuro. stuff from Zhangs..
Posts: 371 | From CT | Registered: Jun 2008
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jamescase20
Unregistered
posted
All sorts of drugs...herbs...even nitri oxide and abx...gave me ear pains.
I think its dieoff man.
My ears seem to hurt the most upon changing or higher dosing of tx.
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Keebler
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posted
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I assume you are on a full protocol. This is not to be taken alone.
The protocol has in place balancing formulas -and MONO therapy for babesia has a high failure rate, regardless of the medicine used.
It's best to talk to the doctor you are working with about it. There may be a simple adjustment.
And, as art. uses the Cytochrome P-450 liver detox pathway, if you have other druges that need that, too, the tinnitus can be result of an overwhelmed liver. Be sure to ask about your liver support.
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
I am on other drugs as well, like Lamictal (mood stabalizer), Mepron, Zithromax, Nystatin.
My bloodwork always comes back to show my liver is fine though.
I have been thinking of going off the Lamictal just so I can take more Art, etc......I wonder if that would help.
I am starting to also get a sensation of a "pounding heart" and quickened pulse. When I am laying in bed, I can "hear" my pulse in my ear too though. Would that lean this more into Herx territory as opposed to a liver thing?
There is no doubt in my mind this noticable pulse is from my Artemesiae. It usually lasts 24 hours from when I take it.
I REALLY want to stay on this supplement.....but I can't escape the feeling that these reactions are bizarre......especially considering I take such a small dose.
Any additional advice is appreciated.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
I am on other drugs as well, like Lamictal (mood stabalizer), Mepron, Zithromax, Nystatin.
My bloodwork always comes back to show my liver is fine though.
I have been thinking of going off the Lamictal just so I can take more Art, etc......I wonder if that would help.
I am starting to also get a sensation of a "pounding heart" and quickened pulse. When I am laying in bed, I can "hear" my pulse in my ear too though. Would that lean this more into Herx territory as opposed to a liver thing?
There is no doubt in my mind this noticable pulse is from my Artemesiae. It usually lasts 24 hours from when I take it.
I REALLY want to stay on this supplement.....but I can't escape the feeling that these reactions are bizarre......especially considering I take such a small dose.
Any additional advice is appreciated.
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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It's great that your liver enzymes look good.
However, most blood work will not show how well the C P-450 pathway is working or if you detox better for Phase I or Phase II pathways.
This requires special testing for excess porphyrins and that is very difficult to do. There are other, more specific tests at the lab that used to be called Great Smokies diagnostic labs (Genovations?). This can be really expensive and sometimes, trial and error are the teaching tools.
I wonder if you can try a different brand of artemesinin? Since you are on Mepron, you've got the combined treatment covered (as art is not a stand-alone tx). So, a different brand might help. And, since you are on mepron, if you lower the dose of art, it may still be helpful but you'd still have the therapeutic dose of mepron.
Some doctors only use artmesinin for a certain number of days a week.
While you've been on zithromax, did you have any of the ear stuff ? Zithromx is usally much harder on ears than art. However, it could be that the combination triggers this.
A herx is ALWAYS a liver thing - the toxins buildup too quickly for the liver to metabolize. Also to consider, Inflammation occurs from infection, but the liver back-up adds to it.
On the TINNITIS thread, you will see that there are many Rx and OTC products that can be ototoxic.
However - and contrary to a study on rats with a variation of artemsia (not artemisinin), hundrends of malaria patients in VietNam did great with artemisinin and had no problems with inner ear or vestibular toxicity. That's not to say, tinnitus was not a problem, but there was no connection to oto-toxicity. (I normally back this up with citations but I'm housesitting and all that is back home. You can search on PubMed.)
I'm not a doctor, but yours (hopefully) has worked with hundreds - or thousands - of lyme patients and may have had others who have had similiar situations. So, please do let your doctor know.
And, the Singleton book, "The Lyme Disease Solution" - Buhner's "Healing Lyme" and Zhang's book (I forget title) . . .all three offer a well-rounded look at this.
In the meantime, can you take magnesium? That is usually a very good helper.
I know how hard it can be to hope a change to protocol works.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Oh, I forgot about the pounding heart and quickened pulse. That, certainly, requires you tell your doctor (although is it common here).
Something may be speeding you up - are you also taking allicin, by chance ?
Any MSG (it has many forms - you can google) or Equal/Nutrasweet/aspartame in any form?
That will speed up stuff and all that is toxic.
Again, magnesium can help settle the heart rate, it helps with detox and inflammation and settles the nervous system. It's nearly magic.
AND, if you take some extra B-6 in the evening that may help, too.
You'll see many more suggestions in Singleton's and Buhner's books, especially. Buhner has a web site, too, but I am on a strange computer and can't figure out how to search and come back to a composing page.
Well, lucky you, I'm done with suggestions. Hopefully, someone has figured out this puzzle.
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
Is Magnesium citrate good enough I wonder? I have that here; I will start taking it again.
Haven't taken it in awhile.
Not on allicin currrently, definitely not consuming aspartame, etc....though Mepron has saccharin in it, unfortunately.
I have been thinking about calling Dr. Zhang about this, but I will need to read his book first, I suppose.
I have tried Nutricology's brand of Artemisinin as well and had the exact same problem. Maybe I will just take a very small dose as often as I can handle it, 2 days on, 2 off.....because that may be the best that can be done right now.
Thanks for your help, Keebler.
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Lauralyme
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posted
I also had the ear flutter way before I started treatment.
-------------------- Fall down seven times, get up eight ~Japanese proverb Posts: 1146 | From west coast | Registered: Mar 2008
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