djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
heres an idea to toss out there-
what if when we add new abx, and think were herxing, we are actually just making an existing yeast problem worse?
now personally i take 4-5 things a day just to combat yeast and would like to think its not a big issue but i cant be sure. stool kit is on the way, we'll see.
anyway, anyone else think this could likely happen?
just an idea.
thanks
derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
hey derek,
this is always in the back of my mind, especially since historically ive always felt better on antifungals. I improved a lot on Difflucan in the beginning of my illness.
You bring up a very good point.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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AZURE WISH
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 804
posted
for me herxes level off ...
yeast will keep getting worse unless i change something ...
also yeast symptoms need me to do something to alter level of yeast..
herxes eventually lighten/lift without me changing anything.
These are just my expereinces and the basic way I can tell the difference for me.
Clarissa
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Member # 4715
posted
hmmmm....excellent point, D.
My first round with Lyme I TORTURED myself over:
"Is this yeast or a herx, is this yeast or a herx? Is this an abx herx? Is this yeast or abx?" And having OCD, you can only imagine around and around it went, and THAT's a BART herx! lol
Now that I have the biotoxin gene diagnoses, add to that,
"Is this yeast, a biotoxin reaction or an abx herx?"
I "think" we folks with the biotoxin gene herx harder than those who do not. That being said, I swear, I'm such a veteran that I can now tell the difference btwn:
an abx herx a candida herx a biotoxin die-off release herx
I've requested this "mastered science" to be put on my tombstone (JK).
I think candida can be: head vibrations stomach problems tremors (to a degree) white tongue (DUH!) heavy fatigue
ABX herxes: crying depression (also maybe some yeast) physical pain severe headaches stiff menigitis like neck psych issues like anxiety, dp/dr severe tremors
That's based on my experience but it's a really fine line.
I definitely am one of the PRO-ABX Lymenetters (with herbs as an adjunct) so I guess when treating, I'll always being doing the delicate dance of abx and candida herxes.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
clarissa-
thanks for the info. i am starting to kinda tell them apart also, although it is very difficult. thanks for sharing your experiences. the biotoxin gene, was that just part of standardized hla testing? dr h tested all hla options for me and the only one that came back was for the joints, so im assuming i was tested for the biotoxin but not sure. ill check at my next phone consult. was it through labcorp?
lymetoo-
yeah, i know. im on the anti yeast diet. thanks!
azure-
i see your point, for me its very difficult to tell the difference, but soon ill know for sure anyway.
yeast is def a problem for most of us. it was for me even before i knew i had lyme.
what i currently do for yeast is :
cumanda 15 drops 2x day 2 oregamax capsules a day 2 tablespoons coconut oil day nystatin 2 pills 3x day probiotics (ultra 2x day and custom 2x day)
so i "think" i have it under control just like you said clarissa, always "wondering" and with the ocd bart herxes and mind, WHICH I HAVE it drives you batty sometimes.
anyway, thanks guys.
anyone else have opinions on the matter or what they are doing for yeast id like to hear. im going to need to change what im doing for it soon, i think oregano oil is a good option?
what else?
thanks!
derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
I am in Aussie so no LLMD. My doctor didn't really recommend anything for yeast other than the normal probiotics tablets.
I am taking 400mg doxycycline per day and 3g of amoxil.
I had a herx to start with from the abx, then experienced 2 weeks where I felt better and my symptoms actually improved.
I then went downhill with return of symptoms for a few weeks and started having normal female (itchy!!) yeast problems which I treated and upped my probiotic dose.
Was still having some problems so started on the lyme low carb diet (from burrascano) and within a day or two noticed heaps of improvement to my fatigue, brain fog & even anxiety.
Would my decline in health have been a yeast problem and what do I need to do to combat this even more?
Thanks
-------------------- Sx Start Jan 08 (test neg, but herxing)Susp Lyme, Bart + Babs??
ABX Doxy 400mg + Amox 1g Jun - Sep 08 Rifampin 600mg + Biaxin 1000mg Tinidazole 1000mg/day - Sep 08 to June 08
Currently taking Salt/C 15g (himalayan salt)
85-90% better Posts: 231 | From Australia | Registered: May 2008
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AZURE WISH
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 804
posted
djf - when i looked up info on oil of oregano i read it could be toxic to liver/kidneys and that was even if it was a good source of it...
that worried me so I have never taken it.
Before I start any new herb/supplement I google and then ask my dr.
I am all for herbs and nautral supplementation but some can be just as/more toxic than some prescriptions.
I try to the kill the yeast without killing me.
Kelly - Yeast can make you sick. many of yeast symptoms overlap with lyme. I think lymetoo has a list somewhere i will try to find it
Also some people have food sensitives (like with dairy or gluten etc) and can get some symptoms if they eat the foods they are sensitive to.
I have had to try different probotics. Some just don't work for me. I have found the ones you have to refrigerate to be the best.
AZURE WISH
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posted
kelley i found a post of melanie reber's with yeast symptom checklist
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Melanie Reber Frequent Contributor Posts: 3119 From: Colorado Registered: Mar 2003 posted 21 November 2003 21:12 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeast: http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001199.html[/URL]http://www.panix.com/~candida/http://www.candida-yeast.com/ ___How many mercury amalgam dental fillings? ___Have you been vaccinated within past 5 years? ___Have persistant Prostatitis or Vaginitis. ___Have taken Cortisone type drugs. ___Have taken birth control pills. ___React badly to cigarette smoke. ___React badly to chemical fumes. ___Symptoms worse on damp or muggy days. ___Have had athlete's foot and/or Jocky itch. ___Have cramps with my periods. ___Crave alcohol (beer, wine, whisky). ___Feel helpless at times. ___Seem to have lost interest. ___Lost or decreased sexual desire. ___Shaky or irritable when hungry. ___Cannot seem to concentrate. ___Stomach gets sore all over. ___Ears itch at times. ___Had bladder infections. ___Had urinary frequency or urgency. ___Vaginal discharge ___Feel weak all over. ___More nervous than usual. ___Often am dizzy or light-headed. ___Heart pounds or beats fast. ___Had constipation and/or diarrhea. ___Mouth ulcers ___Took antibiotics 3 times in past few years? ___Took antibiotics 3 times in past year? ___Have Premenstrual Syndrome (PMS). ___Have Mitral Valve Prolapse. ___Have allergic symptoms often. ___Strong perfumes make me sick. ___Have had a skin or nail fungus. ___Crave sugar, desserts or chocolate. ___Crave breads, and/or pastries. ___Have trouble thinking clearly. ___Noticed numbness or tingling. ___Pains in my stomach. ___Hypoglycemia (low blood sugar). ___Chronic rashes or itching skin. ___Had nausea and a "sick" stomach. ___Joints ache at times. ___Feel tired most of the time. ___Feel "drained" and exhausted. ___Stomach bloats frequently. ___Have a poor memory. ___Feel "spacey" and unreal. ___Muscles ache more often. ___Have depression fairly often. ___Have headaches frequently. ___Headaches are getting worse
AZURE WISH
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Member # 804
posted
djf-
I copied this from lymetoo's plan to deal with candida. There are some suggestions on things that should kill it. Some things seem to be more toxic than I am willing risk. but this is just my opnion. I would definetely get the ok from my dr before i started anything though.
"2. You must kill it with anti-fungal herbs and supplements. [e.g....garlic, onion, caprylic acid, Pau D'Arco capsules or tea, clove, grapefruit seed extract, olive leaf extract, oil of oregano, tea tree oil, Echinacea, Goldenseal, black walnut, MSM, barberry root, uva ursi, neem leaf, biotin]"
Clarissa
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Member # 4715
posted
Derek,
Here's a thread I started back in 2007 about how to get tested for the biotoxin gene. You can get it done at Labcorp and the actual test number is in the links in the thread.
posted
I have heard from a doctor and a N.D. that it is important to ROTATE your probiotics and anti-yeast herbals monthly so the yeast doesn't become resistant.
I will use Oil of Oregano one month, then Olive Leaf, then Caprylic Acid or something else.
I also rotate the probiotics monthly, but my favorite is Bio-K.
Marla
-------------------- "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain." Anonymous Posts: 450 | From California | Registered: Feb 2008
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
thanks for more suggestions all- and good morning:)
azure- thanks for the checklist, appreciate it.
clarissa-
i have taken florastor in the past, but it cannot be taken w any yeast killing agents, natural (such as coconut oil) or RX such as diflucan or nystatin because these agents will just wipe the florastor out. do you take the florastor with the nystatin or at different times? it doesnt work as probiotics do, they are similar but somehow different.
probiotics can still remain effective when taken away from yeast killing agents and abx, etc, but somehow i dont think florastor can be. i could be wrong though, double check. this is just what ive been told by more than one person..
marla sue- i do rotate the probiotics and yeast killing agents. so far i rotate vsl #3, therelac, custom probiotics, ultra flora dp and some others. each time i order a probiotic (which is about every month or six weeks) i try to find a new one, which can be tough though because it needs to be multi billion as well as refrigerated. i also rotate the rx and herbal stuff such as nystatin, coconut oil, and oregano.
my stool kit is on the way so i can see what it is resistant to (if it even is a problem) and then better deal with it.
im going to need a new brand of probiotics and a couple new yeast killing agents in the next month or so i think..
thanks all for the suggestions and help. you are all a great asset to LN.
cheers
derek
btw-
melanie's "yeast" checklist... how can it be confirmed those are all yeast? is that just her opinion or is it confirmed somehow? many of those are lyme and co infections symptoms it seems...
again, so hard to tell them apart. i would have to see some literature that backs up the claim that all those symptoms can be from yeast..
thanks again
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
Clarissa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4715
posted
Derek,
I heard that Florastor cannot be taken with Diflucan but did not hear that about Nystatin but sometimes the LLMD's are not up on that stuff.
Do you think I could alternate? Meaning, one day I take the Florastor and the other day I take the Nystatin? They don't stay in your body more than 24 hours, do they?
Thanks for the "heads up" because I'm talking to my LLMD today so I'll ask him but I have a feeling he won't have heard of this as he knows I'm on both products.
Please let me know what you think about alternating days.
djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
sounds good clarissa, please let me know what he says as i would gladly add the florastor back in if there is not a possibility its just being wasted.
cheers
derek
ps- rotating sounds like a good idea, although what about herbal products too? i think they might wipe out the florastor also.
im going to start a new thread where people can add anything theyve used to kill yeast there.
cantgiveupyet
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Member # 8165
posted
Clarissa, My llmd said you cant take any anitfungals which include nystatin with florastor.
Ive found that every LLMD treats with florastor differently. I know of someone taking it with difflucan.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Clarissa
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posted
Thanks D and Cantgiveup,
I totally forget to ask my LLMD about the Florastor because we had so many other pressing topics at hand (you can see my post titled Phone Consult if you'd like).
incapacitating fatigue concentration/focus problems short term memory painful joints muscle aches extreme tightness in the neck and shoulders acid reflux brown colored mucus in the back of the throat white or blood blisters in the mouth/tongue/throat unrefreshing sleep sore throat white coated tongue aversion to be touched - "crawling" skin chronic sinusitis frequent urination diarrhea chronic constipation headaches including migraines visual blurring sensitivity to light eye pain depression irritability anxiety panic attacks personality changes mood swings chills night sweats canker sores shortness of breath hypertension/high blood pressure dizziness and balance problems sensitivity to heat/cold alcohol intolerance gluten intolerance irregular heartbeat irritable bowel constipation and/or diarrhea painful gas/abdominal bloating low grade fever or low body temperature numbness/tingling in the face or extremities dryness of mouth and eyes difficulty swallowing projectile vomiting menstrual problems (PMS/endometriosis) recurrent yeast infections recurrent ear infections skin rashes dry/flaking skin eczema dermatitis acne skin discoloration/blotchiness dandruff jock and rectal itching chronic athlete's foot chronic toenail and fingernail fungus ringing in the ears (tinnitus) allergies sensitivity to noise/sounds sensitivity to foods sensitivity to chemicals sensitivity to odors anemia weight changes without changes in diet lightheadedness feeling in a fog fainting muscle twitching muscle weakness jerky-leg syndrome low sex drive
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
geez, it sounds almost like lyme, except lyme doesn't cause the white gooey stringy tongue....
at least i don't think it does....
everything sounds so familiar...
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
IMO candida and lyme are OFTEN mixed up. both of the sites referenced have no knowledge of lyme that i can tell, and most people automatically assume that depression, anxiety, etc, etc, is not from lyme or some vector borne illness, when in my experience, it is...
could some of the symptoms listed be from lyme? certainly. do i know for sure. nope. does anyone? nope.
i do think candida is a large issue for us, dont get me wrong, just another confusing aspect of this multi faceted illness.
cheers
derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
This is one of the hardest things for me to understand...and something I go back and forth about so often. I seem to do worse on antibiotics - no doubt about this.
That being said - is that feeling worse a herx, or is it just making an underlying candida problem worse?
I often wonder about myself and some other people on long term (months/years) of antibiotics who aren't getting any better. Perhaps we are going about this the wrong way and just making an underlying candida problem worse.
I imagine in some people lyme +/- co-infections causes and initial insult to the immune system. we use antibiotics to treat the lyme, but in our weakened state the antibiotics lead to a fungal overgrowth that *obviously* does not respond to continued antibiotics.
It is my eternal question...do I continue to treat lyme with antibiotics (long term) or is my lyme gone and I am simply now facing a fungal problem that my weakened immune system can not control.
If the symptoms of both are identical (which they seem to be) at what point do we reconsider long term antibiotics if we aren't seeing an improvement? 3 months? 6 months? A year?
Posts: 99 | From Bucks County, PA | Registered: Aug 2008
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djf2005
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Member # 11449
posted
thats what im wondering jesse.
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
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