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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » An intriguing Penicillin / Artemisinin interaction

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Author Topic: An intriguing Penicillin / Artemisinin interaction
James H
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I've hesitated to even mention this here until I have alot more assurance it is safe... but people are using both all the time for other things and they probably cross accidentally now and then anyway.

This is for Lyme, not Babesia, by the way.

There seems to be a potent multiplier effect on spirochetes in the process of being forced into L forms and cysts by a penicillin when a little artemisinin is added.

The Artemisisin causes the already overinflated keets to inflate more and burst into tiny dead bits. All at once and violently. Most every one that is in the serum anyway. The scientific term is it lyses them.

It is a very powerful effect from a very little bit of medicine and could potentially put one in shock and cause the mother of all herxhiemers... If alot of skeets happenned to be out of their cellular hiding places at the time. (Not that unlikely.)

I recommend waiting to see if any guinea pigs die before even thinking of trying it. It was more than a little scary when this lab rat discovered it. Maybe it can be tamed a little and used more gracefully.

Have any of you heard of this effect, or actually had a Dr. treat you with a Beta Lactam / Artemisinin combo before?

I was fishing a little for reports of nasty reactions yesterday, but was hesitant to say what had happened lest some other cavalier brave soul send himself to the morgue with a herxheimer.

It has interesting possibilities once it is tamed and is understood a little better.

If you have a good microscope with phase contrast that can see them in live blood it is very theraputic watching them die!

[This message has been edited by James H (edited 20 April 2005).]


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charlie
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I take 4.5 mg/day of amoxicillin for a few days when I get my teeth cleaned three times a year just to prevent an oral bacteria overload. Just finished it and was also taking 400mg/day artemesinin to mop up the last of babs. i can't say it did anything but make me feel a bit lethargic but that could be cedar pollen or something blowing down to the coast from the hill country.

To be fair I think I'm about done with lyme and just doing a final babs cleanout so I'm maybe not the best test subject.

I let somebody else know about this who took artemesinin along with bicillin and got quite a reaction although supposedly babs free....maybe he'll weigh in on the subject. (Arf Arf)

Charlie


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minoucat
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Hmm. James, is this something you've observed?

We do the bicillin injections and pulse artemisinin. Art does seem to increase the headaches and maybe the fatigue, but we don't know why -- if it's the art itself, or an effect on the keets.


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James H
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I don't know if Bicillin would create a high enough PCN level for this to happen.

[This message has been edited by James H (edited 21 April 2005).]


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James H
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Yes. Observed visually in live blood.

I had been watching how the spirochete forms would begin to swell up and spin violently until they eventually became the spherical 'L' forms after taking Penicillin. This is well known and it doesn't kill them unfortunately.

I had a theory that since fluid goes inside the membrane as they inflate like little dirty grey balloons, if another antibiotic that was more lethal to them were already in the serum when this happened, that antibiotic would be trapped inside the membrane with them and maybe would eventually kill them. A theory.

I had taken dose of a penicillin to get this effect going fast enough to watch how it worked. There were lots of them to watch, we are pretty all septic with theis stuff.

Anyway, I had noticed that some of the stages formed rings that looked similar to Malaria, and wondered if some might actually be Malaria since I have had that... So I went and took a few Artemisinins just for good measure without giving it a thought.

About 20 minutes later I started to feel really lightheaded and clammy, so I got a fresh drop of blood from a finger and looked at it... all the while feeling even more ill.

What i saw was most of the various Borellia forms in the serum I had been watching had exploded, a few were exploding as I watched, and there was massive debris in my blood that looked like coarse black pepper... the remains of exploded Borrelia.

I did not know if my red blood cells were going to start exploding next, killing me as there are spirochettes coiled up in many of them too.

Fortunately they did not, and I did not. It did put me into a mild state of shock for awhile though with blood pressure down about 15 points and rapid heartbeat. It took a couple days to clear all the toxic debris too.

I don't recommending anybody EVER killing that many at once.. not that we have ever had the means before.

I had no inkling there was any kind synergistic effect of Artemisinin and a penicillin together, nor that there was antheing on the planet so brutally lethal to the nasty critters. It just blows them to little bits and the little bits float up like dead fish.

More of us need to buy microscopes. It is amazing what you can find out if you just look to see what happens when you take your medicine instead of guessing.

Some things just give them a good aerobic workout, us a bad herxheimer from their wastes, and don't kill a single one.

Another med might be working, but not continued because we do not know it worked.

It helps to be able see what you are doing!

Now that we have found the atomic bomb for Borrelia we are trying to figure out how to use it in a controlled systematic manner.

I will share as we learn more and it seems to be able to be used safely.

Another warning: It is one of those reactions where nothing happens at all, then suddenly if the threshold is passed they all start exploding at once. This is what can put you shock. You won't to be driving at the time it hit you, and it can be delayed or come in more waves up to 24 hours later.

It is best to just wait and watch what comes of this little experiment. If it turns out to be useful we will share. As you see there is much to learn and need for caution.

Oh... It seems to have destroyed all the cysts I had been watching too. I have not been able to find one again.

Was something this effective right under our noses all the time and we never noticed?

Maybe we would have if we had even bothered to look.


[This message has been edited by James H (edited 20 April 2005).]


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James H
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.

[This message has been edited by James H (edited 20 April 2005).]


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charlie
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You must have edited the part about the grapefroit juice...I was doing that too; along with the artemesinin, NOT the amoxicillin which the acid in fruit juice can destroy.

I guess I could give you a blood sample but it really didn't do anything, might as well have taken doxy (which doesn't do anything either in my case)

....or maybe I'm cured.

Charlie


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JavaBeing
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Wow James, this info is not only quite intriging, but fairly intimidating as well. I'm currently on Bicillin (2X/week) plus Biaxin and Plaquenil. Next week, I'm too add art to see if reaction for possible Babs infection. Gotta say, you got me rather concern...

I've been reading many posts on how these combo's were working well for them. Now I'm not so sure...anyone else have reactions they'd like to share?

JavaBeing (now glaring at my bottle of Art.)


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HaplyCarlessdave
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I was on 6 grams/day of amoxicillin and a gram of biaxin. I think I was taking artimesia before I stopped that combi, which was very effective for lyme. I did have a bit of a reaction when I first started artimesia--- perhaps it could be from the effect you describe.
DaveS

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lou
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Am wondering whether you can be sure that exposure to oxygen does not cause this effect on your microscope sample.

That would mean that the reaction you had when taking these drugs was unrelated to what you saw in the scope. I personally have never had anything cause a noticeable reaction that fast.

Just trying to make sure this is air tight, in more ways than one. Anybody have some suitable mice willing to take drugs?


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James H
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I didn't mean to imply that there was a dangerous drug reaction from these two together per se.

I think all that is happening is that if some keets are already inflated like balloons by the well documented action of a penicillin... Artemisinin has a potentiating effect of some kind that pushes them to inflate some more and then burst. Very low tech but they die.

It is encouraging that nobody else has reported more than a bad herx from this combo, as it would be a shame to find a really effective tool and have it be too dangerous to use.

I have not been on any kind of really intensive ABX therapy like many of you have. Just Doxycycline, various penicillins, and now just 100mg Minocycline BID.

My blood was literally swarming with the things when this interesting little effect was noticed. I probably have a pretty heavy load, even after this many have been taken out.

I think that is why I got hit so hard when so many were killed in the space of an hour. The herxheimer.

From your comments my safety concerns were probably a little overcautious, but that was the mother of all herxes.

I have noticed too that at different times of the day there are hardly any seen in the blood serum, outside the cells. At other times... seeming to correspond to the achy feeling i often get in the afternoons... there are more than you can count. So timing may have a big effect.

What I am doing to test it out is replacing my PM minocycline with 1g of Amoxy and 200mg of Artemisinin. I was using the grapefruit juice to keep the Art absorbing properly in my gut.

I had not considered that grapefruit juice's acid might interfere with the Amoxy, but it seems to still work. In fact 1.5g Amoxy and 300mg Art seemed to be an overdose for me in terms of how much toxic dead borrelia debris my body could handle at once. I may just be dealing with a higher load than some of you.

I am not sure if continuing the 100mg minocycline in the AM has any influence. It might, as there is some documented action of the 'cycline type ABX's against the Bb cell wall too.

A good science experiment would eliminate that extra variable, but what i am doing is killing them off by the billions and I am feeling tremendously better. So I am not fixing what isn't broke. At least not right now.

Lou...
I'm getting fresh samples and immediately dropping a cover slip on and viewing them. That is about as close as you can get to real time in vivo observation with low tech means.

Alot of what is observed is before and after snapshots of the blood. In one case a sample had numerous Bb that were hyperinflated into large dark grey spheres with rapid movement inside. 15 minutes later they were mostly floating granules of debris

The blood protected by a cover slip stays alive suprisingly longer than one would think though. The spirochetes themselves are very hard to see in a fresh sample because they are so transparent. After it sits for an hour they start to get distresses and develop enough contrast to be visible.

I will continue trying to learn about this PCN/Art effect. I don't want to encourage unrealistic hopes as many such things do not pan out. Still, it is encouraging to see something actually kill a bunch of them.


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TheCrimeOfLyme
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I love it when lymenet glitches, I post a long post, hit enter and it comes up "flood control activitated, you cannot post within 60 seconds of your last post"

when this was my FIRST POST in like two days.

Sorry, Im being gruffy.

To get right down the point:
I think your observatiosn are great and NOT skewed. Its the same thing a lab would do, and just to let ones know- RBC's contain Oxygen to being with.

YOU CAN and I HAVE reacted VERY quickly after taking artemisinin ( within 15 minutes). I thought I was going to die. I had taken it in the past, and it did not do that to me. I went off abx for four months and then took one- WOW.

I've actually read that that is how artemisinin works- by literally blowing it up.

Its very effective also. I didnt have jaw pain , etc for a month after that one pill, but boy did I think it made me relapse. ( NOTE- I was doing anti candida stuff too at that time , as well as just a two day dose of Rifampin) .. so artemisinin may or may not

be the quash of my pain.

ANyways, where did you purchase your microscope? I am interestd in buying one asap.


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James H
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The microscope stuff isn't for everybody, but for the mad scientists among us and other curious and inquisitive souls...

The setup is just about any decent quality biological microscope with a 100x oil objective AND with phase contrast.

Seeing these transparent spirochetes is like trying to see broken glass at the bottom of a swimming pool without phase contrast.

Mine is just an old relic that belonged to a retired doctor, and it works fine. Nothing elaborate is needed.

There are probably a few decent used ones on ebay at any given time for a reasonable cost.

Also some inexpensive new ones... but if it says "Phase" in the title make sure the one you get actually has the phase contrast kit included. It is a $500 option that can be installed on some and the ads are a little deceptive.

Taking a microbiology class at local college might be another option if available.

If you buy one and are ufamiliar you might at least need to hunt down a helpful microbiology student to show you how to use it. It is not difficult once you are shown, but you have to know how or you will end up damaging it.

It is interesting stuff and good exercise for the mind at the least.

In this case it sure has paid off to take a little look to see what was going on!


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MADDOG
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Well now that explaines a lot. I kept getting terrible herxes on the art. even when I was over the babbs.

I shoot up 2.5 cc of benzathine penn 2 times a week.

HA!! I just did the shot and took the art. NO FEAR HERE!!!! MADDOG AAAOOOO!!!!!!


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James H
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You can use amoxicillin if you want and your stomach doesn't mind it.

I'm just taking 2 500mg amoxicillin with 2 artemisinin and grapefruit once a day in the afternoon when my keets seem to come out and play.

I am also still taking 100mg of minocin in the am because that is what I was on.

It is very potent. If they venture into the serum they likely die.

Having them die in the serum instead of in your cells is desireable too, as it is easy for the body to clean them up there and does not destroy your cells.

There is also a synergistic effect to taking a tetracycline with a penicillin in the case of Bb... contrary to the common wisdom.

Forget the anitbiotic action of a penicillin as far as how it might be able to chemically kill a bacteria. That part is irrelevant.

Just think of it as a simple mechanical pump. As it pumps the keets full of fluid and inflates them like little balloons it also pumpss any other antibiotic in your blood right inside the cell membrane and traps it there.

When taking the minocycline I notice the inflated spherical Bb forms that don't rupture from the artemisinin seem to sicken and die. I am speculating the minocin is doing that.

I'm sure it would pump just about any other antibiotic inside just as well. It has to be a simple generic membrane in order to stealth the immune system...and thus does not have the luxury of being selective what passes through.

The membrane that makes it so hard to kill is also its achilles heel.

[This message has been edited by James H (edited 21 April 2005).]


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charlie
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we have lift off...^
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pq
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James,

ask bowen to send you a sample bottle of the stuff they use to identify Bb. the stuff, flouresces upon getting illumined by an ultraviolet light. easier to track that way. reduce ambiguities in identifying whats going on.

seems to me like all you'd need is an ultraviolet lamp, and one or more drops of bowen's 'tagging' stuff.

as a hobbyist, they just might accomodate your request,if it can be done inexpensively; i.e., not a hundred thousand dollar machine with the "batteries not included. " [lol]

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pq
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James,

some hypotheses on some of what might be going on.

only addressing the arteminisnin(spell. off),
what you described as things being more or less ripped to smithereens, reminded me of the molecular structures i saw, of some of the artem. compounds.

in "techno-speak",some of these have whats called a peroxide formation on them.

a peroxide formation: R-O-O-R'

where each R and R', for example, can be hydrogen atoms, in which case this is hydrogen peroxide. we've all seen this rip through almost anything we add a few drops to.
magnesium peroxide is another example.

on two examples of the artemesia compounds i've seen, this peroxide formation is "tacked" on as though it were a "bridge," connecting one side of the molecule with the other, where R is one side of the molecule, and R' the other side of the molecule.

on still a third, artem. example, this peroxide formation is tacked on the the end of the molecule, connecting one side with the other side.

from your account of what you've seen under the scope, it seems that this peroxide formation would be doing a good part of the work here.

paradoxically, somewhere i read that borrelia avoid hydrogen peroxide.

so the artem. compounds may be thought of, in one of many ways, as a "form of a peroxide" that babesia, and other susceptible microbes can't avoid, or otherwise have a minimal defense against.

perhaps the artem. compounds diable beta lactamase made by many bacteria, and which renders the penicillins ineffectual.


on artemesia compounds + penicillin + borrelia

perhaps the artem. compounds are compromising the outher membrane of borrelia, thereby preparing them for attack by the particular penicillin used.

when you say the word, 'penicillin' i guess this is a narrow spectrum penicillin as might be used in the schardt regimen(successive courses of diflucan and penicillin), as opposed to a broad spectrum penicillin being used, such as, for example, amoxicillin, or any other broad spectrum penicillin? (note 1)

my guess is that this is a narrow spectrum penicillin. do have the exact chemical name for the penicillin you used?

this combination seems analagous to the schardt approach, in that with the diflucan attacks the part of borrelia that evolutionarily speaking, shares a fungal origin, and the penicillin attacks the non-fungal part of Borrelia.

the artem. compound(s) might attack this fungal-origin part of borrelia as does the diflucan, and the penicillin attacks the non-fungal origin part of borrelia.


(1) this is NOT to deny the efficacy and safety of amoxicillin in the treatment of lyme. i personally benefited from the oral form of it.

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James H
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It worked with Amoxicillin and from reports I heard it worked well with Bicillin LA, which is just a very slow release preparation of Penicillin G. I wondered what the IV PCN G that was tried in earlier Lyme treatmentprotocols would have done with some Artemisinin added.

Unfortunately it only seemed to work on a segment of the population of infecting organisms. We felt really great for a month or two, and then it didn't seem like it could do much more with the ones that were left.

I think the narrow spectrum PCN's probably are better, as in the Schardt Protocol, but since they have to be injected that is an inconvenience and cost issue in most cases. Amoxicillin works too.

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charlie
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bump
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TheCrimeOfLyme
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I guinea pigged this, and tried Bicillin with artemisinin.

Ive been abx since 2003. I got down to where I simply was just not herxing on bicillin that much and was still left with five symptoms.

I added artemisinin.
OH MY GOD is all I can say. I herxed almost identical to how I used to herx in 2003.

I think I will just resume 100 mg artemisinin and kinda hang there for a while on that dosage while taking my bicillin. If I up it, I'd probably kill myself.

James H, by the way, where are you ? have not seen you in a while.

--------------------
You want your life back? Take it.

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minimonkey
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Hmmm -- isn't this interesting??? I've been combining the two (Bicillin LA 2x/week and 300 mgs art/day) for about 3 weeks now -- it is the BEST I've felt in over a year. I'm treating for both suspected babs and also Bb -- so my full regimen includes Ketek, Mepron, Bicillin, Artemisinin, and Diflucan (mostly for yeast) as well as lots of supplements.

Whatever is happening is making me feel much, much better. I've never herxed much from the bicillin, though I did have a mama-herx when I started the Ketek. (Similar to my first ever herx from Doxy) -- the art/meprom combo only gave me a three day mini-herx, and a lot of symptom improvement.

--------------------
"Looks like freedom but it feels like death..
It's something in between, I guess"

Leonard Cohen, from the song "Closing Time"

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charlie
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up
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Keebler
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-

So, the last time James H posted was two years ago?


Any one know where/how he is now ?


-

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