posted
Everyone (docs, friends, family) I tell about lyme, asks "did you get bit by a tick, did you have the bullseye rash"
I have to say "no" then they look at me like I'm crazy for thinking it's lyme.
So, in my investigative work the past 14 months since symptoms began to appear, I came across some very interesting info.
In July 2005, I visited family in Rhode Island. I grew up there, moved to western North Carolina after college.
During my stay in RI, I went to Prudence Island. I have since learned that Prudence Island has a huge deer population, huge tick population, huge incidence of lyme. They have controlled deer killing to control the population.
One person said that more times than not, you will get lyme when going to Prudence Island.
So, I had no idea at the time. I layed on the beach, in the grass in my bathing suit, ran all over the island in short running shorts, sat all all the place....no bug spray.
I took a shower and discovered a samll black bug on my external vaginal area (inner labia, I think).
I was immediately grossed out, and quickly rinsed it down the drain.
2-3 months later, I went to the MD w/ a weird red rash in the area...slightly itchy, but mostly irritated.
I contributed it to cycling short irritation, as I ride a bike for up to 2-3 hrs.....especially at that time.
The MD said, yes it is a non-specific reddish rash, that seemed to be bilateral and extend out in both directions in the same way.
She said it was because the soap I used was too strong and recommended a milder one.
I did this. It went away.
Then, about 18-20 months later, I started having my first symptom (numbness in a few finger tips). The numbness now is in both hands, all the way up my arms to armpits.
I attributed the numbness to a cycling, pinched nerve issue.
Went to the MD.....x-rays, MRIs, spinal tap, probabble MS, lyme, more symptoms, frustration.
So, does this timeline seem probable for chronic neuro lyme?
Can a tick bite infect w/ lyme within a 5-7 hour time frame without really being attached (remember, I was able to rinse the bug away)?
Posts: 55 | From North Carolina | Registered: Dec 2007
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
I belive a tick can as soon as it starts the prcess of biting you But the IDSA will say no it has to be attached. You had the rash and saw at least one bug ie tick? When a tick bites the first thing it does is spit on the area because in ticks saliva is various items 1.saliva numbs area2.saliva has protien in it called salp15 salivary protein that inhibits CD4+ T cell activation thats your first immune responce! 3.after that it begins sawing into you to. 4.Then it injects more saliva knocking out immune responce and thinning your blood. 5. its face is glued by now fully attached. Back to 3.& 4. In here is where I say you get ifected not by the full size spirochete but by coccoid forms and Lforms these are in the saliva.
So yes if bitten and not even attached or short period of attachment = infected.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Get ttreated Now!!
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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you asked: " can a tick bite/infect w/out attachment?"
YES. Certainly. Absolutely.
Not all ticks are infected. However, If the tick is infected various infections can be spread with a bite, regardless of how long a tick dines.
A bite is a bite. And many of those who contact lyme never have any sort of a rash. For those who do, the bulls eye is proof positive, but there are many presentations of a lyme rash.
Other tick-borne infections sometimes present with various rashes, too.
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[ 04. November 2008, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
It would have to have bitten you....but how do you KNOW it didn't? (I'm confused by your story.)
If it was attached....in that you had to pull it off... then certainly YES it could have transmitted Lyme and coinfections to you.
MANY here NEVER had the benefit of a bullseye rash. I didn't.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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If I read it correctly, it seems that the tick could have been attached for 5-7 hours. Maybe he was just moving on when he got washed down the drain.
Do you have a LLMD? I am confused with some of the test results and the ping-pong treatment you seem to be getting from doctors.
I hope you can find someone to help you figure out what is going on. My best advice is to not even go to doctors who are not ILADS educated.
It's sort of like taking your BMW to a Chevy mechanic and expecting them to know what to do. They won't.
---------
tracisuzanne,
In order to know what else to tell you, I looked back over some of your posts. So that others can get a clearer idea of the time line here and what advice you've already been given, here are just a few of the key points that you have previously posted:
tracisuzanne : `` . . .I want to understand my negative Igenex IgG and IgM tests...IgG had 1 positive band, and one indeterminate and the IgM had 1 positive. . . .''
tracisuzanne: ``. . . I had a spinal tap 2 weeks ago. Results came back positive for the "bands" and another immunoglobulin. I have brain white matter lesions (but not "Classic MS" according to the neuro) and a ton of other symtoms.
The neurologist is now saying "probable MS" . . .''
CONTROVERSY CONTINUES TO FUEL THE "LYME WAR" By Virginia Savely, RN, FNP-C
*****
As two medical societies battle over its diagnosis and treatment, Lyme disease remains a frequently missed illness. Here is how to spot and treat it.
Excerpts:
" . . .To treat Lyme disease for a comparable number of life cycles, treatment would need to last 30 weeks. . . ."
`` . . .Patients with Lyme disease almost always have negative results on standard blood screening tests and have no remarkable findings on physical exam, so they are frequently referred to mental-health professionals for evaluation.
"...If all cases were detected and treated in the early stages of Lyme disease, the debate over the diagnosis and treatment of late-stage disease would not be an issue, and devastating rheumatologic, neurologic, and cardiac complications could be avoided..."
. . . * Clinicians do not realize that the CDC has gone on record as saying the commercial Lyme tests are designed for epidemiologic rather than diagnostic purposes, and a diagnosis should be based on clinical presentation rather than serologic results.
- FULL ARTICLE AT LINK ABOVE.
Co-infections (other tick-borne infections or TBD - tick-borne disease) are not discussed in the Savely article due to space limits. Still, any LLMD you would see would know how to assess/treat if others are present.
posted
Well I know for fact that mine was attached for less than 5 minutes, and I came down with bullseye rash for about a week, soon to be followed by hell.
So the 24 hr thing I read everywhere is totally incorrect.
I did leave the mouth or the tick in until about 3 weeks later, when the doc pulled it out, so that possibly was a factor but...
Posts: 410 | From Victoria BC, Canada | Registered: Jul 2008
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joalo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12752
posted
Maybe the tick had already finished it's meal and detached when you found it and rinsed it away.
Isn't this a possibility???
-------------------- Sick since January 1985. Misdiagnosed for 20 years. Tested CDC positive October 2005. Treating since April 2006. Posts: 3228 | From Somewhere west of the Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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It could be that the tick bit and walked away. Or maybe the tick did not bite and soap or cycling caused a rash.
Still, it's best to be checked by a LLMD.
However, if lyme is not a factor, based upon your symptoms, you should also consider other chronic stealth infections. Timaca has done an excellent job reminding us that there is much to consider.
posted
I never saw an actual tick, but I did see a bite, followed by a circular rash around the bite about ten days later.
There is no way that the tick was on me for any more than one hour max.
My western blot from Igenex was positive. And my symptoms have pretty much followed the classic lyme model.
So I think the idea that the tick needs to be attached for a day or so is completely bogus. I'm living proof!
Posts: 67 | From SF Bay Area | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
So, to answer some of the questions below.......
Tick wasn't attached, it just rinsed away.....but that doesn't mean it didn't bite in the 5-7 hr period.
I was diagnosed "probable MS" but told it didn't look classic by one neuro, but yes by another.
I am seeing a LLMD.
I am on Biaxin, Flagyl, and Doxy.
I got a + IgG and IgM from Igenix.
My CD 57 count is low at 48 (normal range on my test says 60-360).
I have many weird symptoms that seem to come and go and move around, some of which are never mentioned w/ MS.........achy shin bones, achy teeth, seeing phantom visions in my peripheral vision, weird shivers in my body (including my head), hard time getting my words out sometimes, making a complete coherent sentence, etc, etc,etc
My first and main symptom since this all began is numb fingers. It has gradually spread to hands, arms, up to armpits.
My finger tips feel rubbed raw....hardly any feeling. All I can compare it to it when you get glue stuck to your finger tips and it lessens the sensitivity of your skin. I can tell something is there based on the pressure of the object against my skin, but I can't really feel it.
Typing is very hard.....I now type w/ my fingernails, because my fingertips can't feel the keys and they slide off hitting adjacent keys.....lots of typos.
Taking showers is a chore. The hot water inflammes my hands, the skin prumes on my tips in 10 seconds. When I get out, I really can't feel anything.
Posts: 55 | From North Carolina | Registered: Dec 2007
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