posted
I recently found out my cocker dexter is positive for this terrible disease. He did have some ticks when we went traveling around the country. His only exposure to these terrible things was during bathroom breaks. He is an inside dog, so when I took him into the vet last week, I got the bad news. I also was exposed to ticks as a child during a cub scout camping trip to eagle cave in Wisconsin. I had 13 ticks on my head. Didn't know how long I had them, but I was never tested for lymes. I am a disabled vet and I have tons of symptoms that could be associated with this disease but I have always just assumed it was my disabilities.
I am scheduled to be tested at the VA in Feb. I hope I am not infected.
Anyway, I'm not sure if this is where I ask a question about my dogs symptoms, but I am very worried after getting a re-check this weekend.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Cocker spaniels are known to have arthritis in the back legs and hips, he is around 10-12 yrs old (we adopted)so I just thought his pain was normal. then 2 wks ago I noticed he was sort of walking around with his mouth opened. He had a bad tooth, so I thought this is why so I scheduled a vet visit for a checkup and to have the tooth removed. On jan 17th After running some tests, I got the bad news. The vet said his jaw was open from the severe joint pain in his jaw. She went on to tell me that he was also in a great amount of pain, and that he yelped at the smallest of pressure on any joint.
she gave me a bunch of meds:
Clavamox 125 mg 1.5 x2 a day doxy oxytetracycline 1 x2 a day previcox 57mg 1 a day tramadol 50 mg x2 a day
and sent me on my way. Fast forward to the 24th, he hasn't shown any improvement. To add insult to injury, the vet said that all his lymph glands (neck and back of legs) are all really swollen. She went on to take needle biopsies and told me I will get the results back on the 26th. She said he might have lymph cancer not associated with lymes, and if so, without treatment he will only have months to live or maybe a year with chemo. I like my vet, but I am not sure if she got the diagnosis right.
Finally the questions:
1. Should he have had results already with the meds?
2. Is a painful jaw a common sign of the disease? I heard it is mostly leg pain
3. My dog can't close his mouth and sounds like he is having difficulty swallowing, but has not lost his appetite. I heard they usually can't eat, is this true?
4. He doesn't have a fever, and although he is not running, he moves quite well and even pulls me while walking. Can he do this if he is having and outbreak?
5. Today, he started to drink water like crazy. Very uncharacteristic of his usual drinking. Because he can't close his mouth, he is leaving large amounts of saliva everywhere and his water bowl seems to be frothy. Is this normal? Do any of his meds above cause excessive thirst?
I pose these questions here because it doesn't seem like any vets I call have clear answers or even know how to diagnose this disease. When I ask these questions, they all want me to bring the dog in. they just want my money, they don't seem to care that this creature is suffering.
Like I said, any help would be appreciated, and I thank you in advance. Also, if this is in the wrong area, please accept my apology. It is late, I am tired and in a great amount of pain. Not to mention I am very worried about my kid (dog).
-------------------- i use to say i and me; now its us, now its we... Posts: 3 | From San Diego | Registered: Jan 2009
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
Which of these dogs get sick and which ones do not? Does the dog with joint pain, fever, and a positive C6 test need medication? This is where the news is particularly good.
Treatment of Lyme disease utilizes a 2-4 week course of doxycycline if hes infected long treat longer, a medication which is inexpensive and has limited side effects potential. Amoxicillin is another effective alternative, also inexpensive and with minimal side effects. If Lyme disease is a consideration, many veterinarians simply prescribe the medication. Obvious improvement is seen within 48 hours. Further, most tick-borne infections capable of causing joint pain, fever, and signs similar to Lyme disease generally all share doxycycline responsiveness so a simple course of medication actually covers several types of infection.
Eradication of the Lyme spirochete is not a reasonable expectation with treatment; the organism is simply too good at hiding. The goal instead is to bring the patient into what is called a ``premunitive state.'' This is the state that 90% of infected dogs achieve when they get infected but never get ill: the organism is in their bodies latently but is not causing active infection
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Canine Lyme Disease: Prevention, Diagnosis, Vaccination, and Treatment Issues By Christie Keith There are few areas in which my own thinking has undergone more change in the last few years than on the subject of tick borne diseases. I lost a dog to acute renal failure probably caused by a disease known as Lyme nephritis, and diagnosis of Lyme disease has become much more useful and sophisticated in the last couple of years as well. Furthmore, recent research suggests that Lyme is a more serious disease in dogs than previously (and still frequently) believed.
I used to say "no" to treating asymptomatic Lyme titers, and a lot of vets still do say "no." This is because early research indicated that most Lyme positive dogs never have any symptoms of the disease. I have cited this research myself (Why I Don't Use Lyme Disease Vaccines, Meryl P. Littman, VMD, ACVIM; Department of Clinical Studies School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania; Compendium on Continuing Education for the Practicing Veterinarian, November 1997). All but around 5-10 percent of dogs appeared to contract it and then fight it off and be fine. Clinical observation put this number higher, more like 15-25 percent, but still, most antibody-positive dogs did not show signs of disease. For this reason, most vets, including specialists, did not recommend "treating a titer." They reserved treatment for dogs showing clinical signs of the disease, and frankly, this seemed very sensible to me.
More recent research is suggesting, however, that this approach may not be the best, and I now do believe in treating a titer (as long as it's from the new C6 test that can distinguish between infection and vaccination antibody, if the dog has ever been vaccinated for Lyme).
In a 2005 study of 62 beagles who were infected with Lyme, 39 of the 62 dogs showed some symptoms of Lyme disease. 23 did not. This is substantially more than the 5 percent shown in an earlier study, also with beagles.
On necropsy, almost all the dogs had some signs of Lyme disease in the form of synovitis (inflammation of the joint lining) - including the asymptomatic dogs.
14 of the 62 dogs had very severe signs of Lyme infection, including inflammation of the blood vessels and nerve sheaths. Some dogs had lesions resembling those found in human Lyme disease. (Histopathological Studies of Experimental Lyme Disease in the Dog, J Comp Pathol. 2005 July, Summers BA, Straubinger AF, Jacobson RH, Chang YF, Appel MJ, Straubinger RK., Department of Biomedical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853-6401, USA.)
Although this is just one study, and I have some questions about how they controlled for the possibility of co-infection with other tick diseases those ticks might have been carrying, and how the asymptomatic dogs' necropsies compare to the necropsies of dogs not exposed to Lyme, I still think this tips the scales in the direction of treating exposed dogs even if they are asymptomatic.
Diagnosing Lyme in Dogs
There is a new test for Lyme disease in dogs, known as the Canine SNAP 3Dx or the C6 SNAP test, which tests for C6 antibodies to Lyme disease, and also tests for heartworm disease and ehrlichia canis, another tick borne disease. It is done in-office and is extremely accurate in detecting Lyme in dogs. That is because the C6 antibodies are only present due to actual infection, not as a reaction to the vaccine - very helpful for dogs who have been vaccinated or whose vaccination status is unknown.
If you get a positive on the C6 SNAP test, a follow-up test should be done, called the Lyme Quantitative C6 Antibody Test. This has to be sent out. This will establish the baseline values you'll want to see affected by treatment, making it a useful tool for therapy and not just diagnosis.
These tests are only available through IDEXX laboratories.
Treating Lyme in Dogs
Lyme, when caught early, is surprisingly easy to treat in dogs. Some cases become chronic and entrenched and may become incurable, but if you treat most canine cases appropriately and use the C6 quantitative assay test to monitor that treatment, you should be able to return your dog to normal health.
Conventional treatment for Lyme in dogs is an aggressive course of doxycycline or amoxicillin. Most knowledgeable practicioners prefer doxycycline because it will also treat several other tick borne diseases that may exist as undiagnosed co-infections. This website is about holistic care of dogs so I won't linger too long on this approach other than to say this: When I use allopathy, I use it aggressively. There is no point in half-measures. If you decide to use antibiotics, use the highest recommended dose your dog can tolerate and give the longest suggested course your dog can tolerate. Most failure to treat Lyme is the result of too low a dose given for too short a time.
Can Lyme be treated with alternative medicine? Yes, it can be, but it should be treated by a holistic veterinarian with experience treating it. Do not think that this serious infection can be treated at home. It requires expert care.
After treatment, whether with antibiotics or holistic alternatives, you would expect to see a 50 percent or better decrease in antibody levels on the C6 quantitative assay to be able to feel treatment was effective (combined, of course, with a cessation of all symptoms during the treatment itself, if the dog was symptomatic.)
Lyme Vaccination for Dogs
OK, you say, you're convinced me. This is a serious disease. Should I vaccinate my dog for it?
Unfortunately, there is no real nexus between the seriousness of a disease and the effectiveness or safety of a vaccine for that disease. In my opinion, the Lyme vaccine does not actually provide enough benefit to outweigh its substantial risks, despite the seriousness of canine Lyme Disease.
The Lyme vaccine can cause an untreatable form of Lyme disease and, like all bacterial diseases, provides short term immunity. It is not recommended at any of the vet schools in the United States. The human Lyme vaccine was withdrawn from the market. For all the reasons, I think that it's best avoided. But I have one more, very compelling reason.
There are other tick borne diseases that are much more serious than Lyme, for which we have no vaccines. So even if a very safe and effective Lyme vaccine were developed for dogs, having your dog vaccinated for Lyme isn't going to lessen the need for tick prevention. So it's hard to make the risk vs. benefit analysis for Lyme vaccination come out on the benefit side, no matter how you work the math.
For information on Lyme and all other tick diseases in dogs, there is no better resource anywhere than the Tick-L discussion list. Get more info, including many great links, and join here.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
You dog could have numerous coinfections also which the drugs there giving are not effecting.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
merrygirl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12041
posted
I was a vet tech before I got sick and I think your vet is right on based on what you are telling us. the trouble swallowing could be that the lymph nodes in his neck are bothering him.
Generally speaking dogs with lyme usually do a lot better than humans and perk up within a few days. It could be that something else, like another tick borne disease or heaven forbid cancer, could be causing trouble as well.
Again I think that your vet is doing the right things at this point.
Good luck, and I hope it all turns out well.
melissa
Posts: 3905 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Thank you for your fast and detailed response. It puts my mind at ease. I am still waiting for the needle biopsy test results. I hope he doesn't have cancer.
thanks again
-------------------- i use to say i and me; now its us, now its we... Posts: 3 | From San Diego | Registered: Jan 2009
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
welcome ric to the dog; sorry to read about your dog, but PLEASE get yourself checked out too!
Welcome; i'm so glad you found us!! You've come to the right place for education and support!
Dr. Burrascano's most recent "Diagnostic Hints and 2008 Treatment Guidelines for Lyme and Other Tick Borne Illnesses" @
DebAZ's 12.08 comparison of 05 to 08 new guidelines:
Differences in newest Guidelines compared to 2005 Guidelines
Page 25 26 and 27 Added section "Sorting out the co infections"
Page 28 New info given to get supplements from additional places
In all areas of Supplements there has been various changes and additions to each description and i advice people to re read the full supplement section as well the following additions to the whole supplement section:
Basic Daily Regimin NT Factor Added
Alternative Treatments CITICHOLINE Added
Immune Support Transfor factor Added
For Fatigue Took out "For Fatiuge" section
Other Optional Vitamin D Added
Page 31 "Lyme Disease Rehabilitaion" is rewitten and added to
He mentions Flexcreme (Flex Cream) by Pharmanex as great for body pain
. suggests that you discuss with your doctor continuing treatment until you are symptom free for 2 months.
please see BettyG's newbie package info on the link below; click on link at bottom of my package. Check it out as time permits for you! @ http://tinyurl.com/58eyou
sorry, link takes you to END vs. beginning, so just use UP ARROW and go to the TOP for detailed info! thanks!
Fyi: we have over 1000 viewers daily; 200 - 400 posting/replying; so specific titles get our time/replies. non-specific ones, i sob, scroll on by!
Also, please be very specific in the subject line what you will be discussing so more people will be able to assist you.
***************
please go to my newbie links, copy the entire thing, and then print this off....
financial burdens compiled by melanie reber pages 74 - 92; outstanding info there.
also in my table of contents, for FINANCIAL BURDENS, i believe there are a few more general comments there without links!! print that off too as it's newer info from members thru their own personal, tragic experiences. thoughts and prayers headed your way..
Betty's POSTING GUIDELINES
When you post or reply, please break up your solid, continuous block text welcome to the board! many of us have neuro lyme where we can NOT read long solid block text and be able to comprehend and read it as is.
please edit your post by CLICKING PAPER/PENCIL ICON to right of your name. that opens up BOTH subject line and body text.
now please break up your WORDY SENTENCES into one sentence paragraphs. Then hit ENTER KEY ``THREE`` after each paragraph; we need that space for comprehension.
if you are NOT a wordy person, you can do 2 or 3 total ok. do this for your entire post.
NOTE: you do NOT have to use "", just show the name of person you are responding to, and then type your comment.
IF you need to use "", PLEASE DELETE "BOLD" CODES so it's regular type text we read vs. the DARK, HARSH/PAINFUL BOLDING.
specifically, delete the first 4 characters of 2ND LINE of a ""
[QB] just delete these 4 characters, and BOLDING is GONE! my eyes will really appreciate that; it's one very bad side effect of my having lyme for 38.5 years!! xox
then go to left hand corner and mark box to receive ALL REPLIES, and click EDIT SEND
we thank you for helping us; otherwise, we will SOB, SCROLL ON BY, since we can't read to help you. If I see posts like this, I SOB them; to hard on me.
LYMETOO'S DR. C'S EXPLANATION OF WESTERN BLOT TESTING!
PRINT THIS OFF the full explanation, and then CIRCLE the numbers that coincide with your positives, IND! That will explain your no. results! ------------------------------------------------------
People seeking doctors might be able to get help from their state online information and support group. Nearly 3,400 people belong to state groups. Some of the groups are small but more than 20 of them have 50 or more people and seven have over 100.
The groups are moderated and you have to apply. Most don't allow doctor names, but once on the group, you can ask for doctors in a certain area and ask people to email you privately. *******************************************
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lymednva
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9098
posted
I seriously doubt the VA will be of any help in diagnosing you. They will probably use the ELISA test which will not pick up chronic Lyme, which you may well have, based on your history.
That's why it's important to find a LLMD for testing and treatment.
You can do a search here for more on treatment for vets. Look under VA or military. I know there has been quite a bit posted here.
Good luck to you and your dog.
-------------------- Lymednva Posts: 2407 | From over the river and through the woods | Registered: Apr 2006
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otherwise, we will SOB, SCROLL ON BY, since we can't read to help you. If I see posts like this, I SOB them; to hard on me. 
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