lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
Symbiosis: Syphilis, Lyme disease & AIDS: Resurgence of ``the great imitator''?
Received August 18, 2008; Accepted August 31, 2008) Abstract We advocate investigation of spirochete cyclical symbioses (e.g., Borrelia sp., Leptospira sp., Treponema sp.) given the newly established verification of a developmental history in these gram-negative motile helical eubacteria, both in pure culture and in mammals. Symbiotic spirochetes can be compared to free-living relatives for their levels of integration (behavioral, metabolic, gene product or genetic levels). Detailed research that correlates life histories of symbiotic spirochetes to changes in the immune system of associated vertebrates is sorely needed. Genome analyses show that in necrotrophic symbioses (Borrelia and Treponema sp.) of humans and other primates, integration of the bionts occurs at the gene product and genetic level. Spirochete round bodies (also called cysts, L-forms and sphaeroplasts) can be induced by many types of unfavorable conditions (e.g., threats of starvation, desiccation, oxidation, penicillin and other antibiotics). Reversion to familiar helical, motile active swimmers by placement of pure cultures into favorable environments in some cases can be controlled. These observations are supported by a European literature, especially Russian, apparently unknown to American medicine and medical research.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
kayak,
would you break this entire thing up for us neuro lyme folks who can't read or comprehend as you pasted it? big thanks ... we'd enjoy reading it too.
****
related to AIDS that obama's online change.org sent me today!
Global Health
The New Scientist Thinks We Can End AIDS in One Generation But I Don't
by Alanna Shaikh
Published February 25, 2009 @ 09:44AM PST
The New Scientist recently proposed a plan to end AIDS in the world.
Basically, get everyone in the world to take ARVs, and push their viral load down to undetectable levels. Undetectable viral levels are not transmitted through sexual contact.
No one new is therefore infected. Once the current generation of HIV-infected individuals reaches the end of their lives, your problem is over.
I realize that they meant this as a think piece, and the article and editorial are well worth reading.
They've got some interesting information on treatment specifics with regard to CD4 levels, new hope for cures, and research on the sexual transmission of HIV.
But wow - way to oversimplify a complicated problem and propose an unbelievably bad solution.
They allude to some of the huge problems with this plan in the article, ``Persuading everyone with HIV to start therapy purely for public health reasons could be ethically dubious.
To identify everyone who is HIV positive would require such widespread testing that some may feel it breached their civil liberties. Then there is the question of who would fund such a massive undertaking.''
But that doesn't even begin to touch the problems with this idea.
First of all, sexual transmission is not the only way a person can get HIV.
In some parts of the world, like the former Soviet Union, HIV is transmitted primarily through sharing dirty needles.
An undetectable viral load doesn't eliminate that mode of transmission.
We've seen HIV transmission in health care settings due to bad infection control, and outbreaks in China because of blood collection practices.
Not to mention that getting ARVs to everybody with AIDS runs much deeper than a funding problem.
You need health care providers who can prescribe and manage treatment regimens, and a logistics system that will get the drugs to the places that need them.
None of this could be solved overnight with a cash infusion. You need training, and that takes time. There's no way around it.
I also take issue with the New Scientist article in general. It's a little to prone to rely on hype and generalizations.
I really don't think that ``in the west [HIV] is still seen as affecting mainly gay men, immigrants, prostitutes and drug addicts.'' And I dislike the focus on ``abroad'' as a reservoir of HIV. *****************
now back to kayak's post ... something about aids/hiv.....
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
Wait--so these guys are saying that many cases of what is called AIDS may actually represent concurrent infection with Tp and Bb?
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
lpkayak , thanks for finding this. So that everyone can better read it, I've broken up the text here.
ORIGINAL POST:
=========
Symbiosis: Syphilis, Lyme disease & AIDS: Resurgence of ``the great imitator''?
Received August 18, 2008; Accepted August 31, 2008)
Abstract
We advocate investigation of spirochete cyclical symbioses (e.g., Borrelia sp., Leptospira sp., Treponema sp.)
given the newly established verification of a developmental history in these gram-negative motile helical eubacteria, both in pure culture and in mammals.
Symbiotic spirochetes can be compared to free-living relatives for their levels of integration (behavioral, metabolic, gene product or genetic levels).
Detailed research that correlates life histories of symbiotic spirochetes to changes in the immune system of associated vertebrates is sorely needed.
Genome analyses show that in necrotrophic symbioses (Borrelia and Treponema sp.) of humans and other primates, integration of the bionts occurs at the gene product and genetic level.
Spirochete round bodies (also called cysts, L-forms and sphaeroplasts) can be induced by many types of unfavorable conditions (e.g., threats of starvation, desiccation, oxidation, penicillin and other antibiotics).
Reversion to familiar helical, motile active swimmers by placement of pure cultures into favorable environments in some cases can be controlled.
These observations are supported by a European literature, especially Russian, apparently unknown to American medicine and medical research.
posted
Those folks who convert from HIV to full blown aids and undergo rapid degeneration do so because they are coinfected with the syphilis spirochete. I believe those without the syphilis coinfection can live out normal lives.
The spirochete, whatever the species, is usually the root cause of all the devastation.
Posts: 655 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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posted
i printed out the 8 page article referenced above, and in my opinion, it is the single most SIGNIFICANT information that i have read in my 3 plus years on this site.
The scientific information on cheetes was, for me, astounding & gives me hope that great advances in treatment of BB are on the horizon.
Posts: 213 | From ohio | Registered: Jul 2006
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Dekrator48
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18239
posted
Thanks lpkayak. I am going to save that and read it more closely when I get a chance. Sounds very interesting.
-------------------- The fibromyalgia I've had for 32 years was an undiagnosed Lyme symptom.
"For I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". -Jeremiah 29:11 Posts: 6076 | From Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Thanks lpkayak, really appreciate this information.
YIKES!! I take lots of glycine on the advice of a doctor who treats lyme patients. Not my LLMD. Anyway, looks like it becomes food for conversion of spirochetes into cysts in the presence of penicillin (this is in vitro).
I've only read part of it at this point so maybe I didn't understand this correctly. I'll print the whole file and read it.
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
the paper posits some fascinating scientific theories but i wish the tinges of homophobia were absent. it is blatantly untrue that in this day and age, 'homosexuals' or 'men who have sex with men' are at greater risk of contracting HIV than their heterosexual counterparts. in fact the largest growing HIV+ population at the moment is heterosexual african-american women.
lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
ok-thanks to all for replying. there was no way i could read and understand the whole thing-so i thought if i put it out here and you guys commented i would get an idea of what it is about.
i probably could have read it...but it would have taken all day and i had stuff i really had to do. the cognitive stuff really wears me down.
i'm really glad so many are glad to get it. it came to me in another email from a local group leader
heiwalove: i didn't read it so didn't see that. if i did i would have been upset too.
i thought it was pretty much common knowledge at this point that it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. i knew the largest growing HIV pop was women---didn't know it was AA women
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I have thought about this possibility before. The symptoms of the three overlap tremendously, and the tests cross react with each other. Many people with hiv improve with abx as well. You take the destructive power of syphilis and the perseverance of lyme whether it be symbiotic or a totally mutated new organism and that combination can't be good. Throw in the fact that hiv has never been isolated in people who are supposedly hiv positive. Even the pioneer who found the retro virus hiv after years of research claims hiv doesnt cause aids. It is a harmless opportunist infection. Plus, when did hiv hit the news? Shortly after lyme and plum island.
[ 03-02-2009, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: duke77 ]
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
I have been telling a friend of mine the same exact thing for a few yrs. He was dx with HIV yrs ago.(I also agree that no single virus has been identified)
He was also dx with syphilis before the aids virus. He sent me this same article about a month ago, but i don't know how to copy and paste.
So thanks Ipkayak for posting this. I also discussed the point that before the HIV scare a lot of gay men were being dx with syphillis.
Before that there was an overwhelming problem with parasitic infections. I wonder if a precusor to Lyme & Aids are parasites?
What if we need continuos antiparsitics as well as antibiotics? Just thinking out loud,
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
keebler, thanks for breaking this up. this one i don't understand at all but thanks for posting for those who could follow it!
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Lymeorsomething
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16359
posted
Fortunately, HIV testing appears to be rather reliable. I ruled that out early on.
I never checked for syphilis. You would think it would cause false positives for lyme. Does it?
Is syphilis easier to kill than lyme? Or maybe it becomes syphilyme like Brundlefly
posted
Oh! this is a great paper. Thank you for posting it, LPKAYAK Posts: 554 | From Naples, Italy | Registered: Jun 2006
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Well. I spent some time ( a few days) with Lynn Margulis ten years ago (before the nasty TICK). She is a genius for sure.
She figured out that mitochondria were organelles--twenty years before science accepted it.
She is a powerhouse. She was married to Carl Sagan in her youth. She swims every morning---gets up at 530---! Rides her bike to Amherst. (Well, she did then anyway).
She believes spirochetes are part of the evolution of the eukaryotic (ie--OUR) nucleated cell. Most scientists disagree. I'm not sure I agree.
This article was NOT up to her usual clarity however.
She studies spirochetes in the termite gut because they swim aroudn freely, some attach to the cell like cilia, and some go into the cell and she believes those are the 3 phases a spirochete can exist in.
I wish Turn the Corner Foundation would fund someone to translate the Russian literature.
She told me that you could take mud from mudflats and see NOTHING in them and put it in the right nutrients and spirochetes would swim out (not the kind that infect humans).
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
The entire paper was interesting and downright scary----but having a group of scientists from varying backgrounds state others should- 1. Recognize the CYST form. and 2. Recognize that diagnostics are CRAP. Awesome.
-hey! I can pretend we are making progress, can't I?
Posts: 554 | From Naples, Italy | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I think this is a case where so many similar traits are summed up to mean - one in the same-
The same kind of observations which lead people to believe they evolved from the Ape. However, some Apes are still Apes, not people.
Just my opinion.
Q: Can people get Syphilis or AIDs from a bite of a Tick?
Posts: 641 | From So. CA | Registered: May 2008
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
i think you have to read the whole paper to understand the relevance.
i think it is very relevant.
also a little scarey. like-maybe the abx are hurting more than helping. NOT hurting another part of the body...but actually helping the Bb get stronger. like i said-scarey.
it is also clear about what hurts the Bb. it doesn't say anything can kill it-but says heat, O2 and other stuff prevents it from "being happy"
how's that for a scientific explanation...hopefully someone better can come along and translate
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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