Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
1. What is Bb's toxin?
Answer:
The toxin from Bb belongs to a family of toxic proteins known as "zinc endoproteinases" or metalloproteases, and includes the toxin from the organism causing tetanus as well as those from many other well-known infectious diseases.
2. What does it do?
Answer:
The action of botulinum (as well as the toxin from the Lyme spirochete) is to *prevent*, through its action as a proteolytic enzyme, *the release of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine*.
and...
the Lethal factor (LF) is a zinc endoprotease *cleaving* the mitogen- activated protein kinase kinases (MAPKK) family causing different cell perturbations and possibly macrophages to release cytokines
Note: K = kinase = phosphate transfer...2 K's 2 phosphate transfers...not happening onto what they are suppposed to (another amino acid).
3. What happens if this zinc endoprotease cleaves (breaks apart) a MAPKK (specifically MAPKK1)?
Answer:
Without MAPKK1 ('cause its been broken apart) a cell signal is thrown off and this happens:
By contrast, inhibition of p38 MAP kinase or MAPKK1, an upstream activator of ERK1/2 completely
Bb has "zinc fingers" which look to be cysteine and histidine bound to zinc.
When Bb is destroyed if histidine levels go up...
Histidine converts to histamine...which can have severe consequences if not countered with Mg (our natural "anti-inflammatory" and "anti-histamine"). IMO.
Histamine triggers a "return" of the Th1 pathway (upregulates Th1)
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posted
Many years ago I had an email pal with near identical symptoms to mine. She reported that while she was pregnant, her symptoms virtually disappeared. That's what led me to investigating the Th1/Th2 balance, and learning that our Th1 must be stuck on high (when not pregnant).
Now if only we could test Th1/Th2 levels directly.
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Marnie,
Thanks so much for spelling that out.
I wonder, too, if you can inhibit the toxin, if the immune system may not take such a hit. Well, it's taken the initial hit from the exposure to the toxin, of course, but it may be that by inhibiting the spirochete toxin, that the immune system may be spared some? It would also seem that by ihibiting the toxin, the liver and other cells also could be spared at least some of the damage.
While many things are discussed in the article below, I could not see that the Th1 and Th2 were mentioned - but my eyes and brain miss much and there is a lot to this article:
From the Townsend Letter for Doctors & Patients, February/March 2006
BIOCHEMISTRY OF LYME DISEASE: BORRELIA BURGDORFERI SPIROCHETE / CYST
by Prof. Robert W. Bradford and Henry W. Allen
Excerpts:
Inhibitors of the Lyme Spirochete Toxin
A large amount of work is being conducted today in an effort to uncover more inhibitors of the Lyme spirochete toxin.
One known inhibitor of toxin activity is the substance glycyrrhizic acid (GA), the active principle of licorice root, used in Oriental medicine for thousands of years.12
GA is also the active principle of the American Biologics product, Biorizin�. . . .
Being a large molecule, GA is capable of binding into the active site of the toxin, thereby blocking the normal substrate, two adjacent amino acids in the protein SNAP-25. (See Chart 8 and Chart 9.)
A second inhibitor of Lyme (botulinum-like) toxin is the dipeptide, glutamylglutamate (Glu-Glu), consisting of two glutamic acids bound together as a dipeptide.13
The tripeptide Glu-Glu-Glu also inhibits botulinum.13 These substances are inhibitors because of their similarity to the amino acid pair, asparagine- phenylalanine, the normal substrate of botulinum.
Although being bound by the toxin's active site, the toxin is unable to cleave the Glu-Glu linkage. (See Chart 8 and Listing 4.)
Listing 4: Inhibitors of Borrelia burgdorferi (Bb) and its Toxin Inhibitor
Bismacine� (poster's note: not safe; do not use as it can be fatal)
Chromocine�
Silver Ion
- Very long article at the link above - and great photos, too.
==========
In addition to a caution about Bismacine, licorice can raise blood pressure for some people or increase edema. So, if one takes licorice, be sure to keep blood pressure monitored. As part of an overall balanced herbal formula, this poses less chance of happening.
A good ILADS-member LL ND (naturopathic doctor) would know more about how to prescribe such a formula as it would be best to be custom-made for each patient.
From the second article in post below: " . . .The reports on hypertensive action for several of the herbs are quite limited and may not apply at all to what happens with normal clinical use. . . ."
Another note of interest, licorice is a huge help in treating the spirochetal bacteria that causes stomach ulcers, h. pylori.
Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
Marnie this is for you. Would like to know what you think. Thanks. Title: Silver-zinc allantoinate compositions and method of killing bacteria and fungi therewith Document Type and Number: United States Patent 3930000
Abstract: A silver zinc allantoinate composition and method for making it. The silver zinc allantoinate is prepared by a novel process producing high yields above 90 percent and the resultant silver zinc allantoinate has a low water solubility of about 0.02 percent at 25� C. providing for slow release of silver and zinc ions in medication. The silver zinc allantoinate can be incorporated into various carriers such as ointment, creams, lotions, aerosol sprays, and the like, for topical application for control of bacteria and fungi. I know I was thinking LOL...Please put mine in a bottle and pass it around.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Keebler
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Member # 12673
WHAT IT DOES: Licorice root is sweet in taste and cooling in action. It detoxifies poisons from the blood and liver, and reduces general inflammation and pain. It moistens and heals the lungs and digestive tract.
RATING: Silver
SAFETY ISSUES: Do not use during pregnancy. Do not use high doses or for a prolonged period of time unless under the care of a qualified health care practitioner.
Use cautiously with kidney disease, liver disorders, or if taking thiazide diuretics, cortisone or cardiac glycosides. Licorice prolongs the half-life of cortisone. Read the clinical summary [click link at site] which explains that the DGL form of licorice is free of these side effects.
STARTING DOSAGE:
* Crude powder: one to three grams three times per day, up to six weeks
* Concentrated 4:1 granules: 150-250 mg. three times per day
Licorice root is one of the most widely used herbs in the world. Every major medical tradition uses it as medicine, usually describing its effects as cooling and tonifying.
TCM doctors use it in two forms. Regular licorice root is considered to have an intrinsic harmonizing effect useful for reducing side effects from large combinations of other potent herbs, and for disguising their bitter or acrid flavors. Licorice is said to strengthen the digestion and the hormonal systems and moisten the lungs.
TCM doctors also use a honey-fried form to warm digestion when indicated. TAM doctors use licorice root to reduce the pain of sore throat and ulcers, to subdue poisons, and as a major ingredient in cough syrups.
Almost 50 years ago, a scientist by the name of Revers reported that licorice paste reduced abdominal symptoms and caused radiographic evidence of ulcer healing. However, about 20% of patients developed edema, headache and other symptoms due to overdose, leading to a loss of enthusiasm (Schambelan, 1994).
This led to the development of DGL (deglycyrrhizinated licorice), a form of licorice that does not contain the agents responsible for the side effects such as electrolyte changes. The de-acidified DGL tablet or capsule form used in Europe and America is therefore devoid of any major side effects, and is effective for healing the intestinal membranes.
. . .
Many patients express concerns about using licorice because they have seen negative press coverage of this herb. It is important to understand that these reported concerns are dose-related. Licorice is traditionally used as approximately five percent of a formula, and that is what I usually do with it.
If a patient takes the typical six to nine grams of concentrated 4:1 powder per day, this works out to about 1.2-1.8 grams of licorice, well within recommended dosage levels.
Personally, I've never seen any of the potassium depletion and sodium retention effects described in the literature, and the pharmacologists I've consulted with assure me that such effects are rare, and easily reversible simply by stopping use.
Research Highlights
* We now know that the negative effects of licorice overdose, such as blood pressure elevation and fluid retention, are caused primarily by its dose-dependent inhibition of a specific enzyme called 11-HSD. Analysis reveals that this inhibition occurs only after multiple doses of 1.5 grams per day of pure glycyrrhizic acid.
Daily doses of 500 mg. or less cause little or no problem (Krahenbuhl et al., 1994, Heilmann et al., 1999, White et al., 1997). In other words, licorice root is safe when used in proper dosage.
. . . anti-inflammatory . . . found to inhibit the growth and cytopathology of several unrelated DNA and RNA viruses without affecting cell activity and ability to replicate. Glycyrrhizic acid irreversibly inactivates herpes simplex virus particles (Pompei et al., 1979). For this reason, licorice tincture or paste can be applied directly to lesions.
. . . enhance liver detoxification of poisons . . . unique ability to bind to toxic chemicals and cancer-causing agents . . . may reduce the negative effects of LDL cholesterol, and reduce atherosclerotic lesion areas in mice . . .
. . . effect on corticosteroid metabolism that links it to certain receptors in the brain and may eventually lead to applications in studies of mood, neuronal survival . . .
SAFETY ISSUES AFFECTING HERBS: Herbs That May Increase Blood Pressure by Subhuti Dharmananda, Ph.D. - September 2003
The reports on hypertensive action for several of the herbs are quite limited and may not apply at all to what happens with normal clinical use.
. . . So, there is a consensus that about 10-12 mg/day of glycyrrhizic acid should be safe for everyone (even those who might be sensitive to licorice effects) and that for most others, a safe level would be about 40-50 mg/day to avoid any blood pressure effects, with 100 mg (75-120 mg/day) having minimal effects that may barely be measurable.
Licorice roots can have variable levels of GA, with typical figures in the range of 4% for Glycyrrhiza glabra (the Western licorice). If one uses a figure of 50 mg GA as a maximum allowable amount based on the above estimates, regular ingestion of licorice would be limited to about 2 grams per day. Higher dose licorice preparations might be used for a maximum period of 10 days. . . .
. . .
A deglycyrrhized licorice (DGL) is available for situations where regular use of licorice (acting as an anti-inflammatory) at significant dosage is intended. DGL is commonly prescribed for gastro-intestinal ulceration. . . .
To minimize the chance of hypertension responses to licorice, patients should be interviewed about knowledge they might have about their blood pressure sensitivity to salt; presence of such sensitivity suggests that there will also be a potential reaction to licorice at moderate to high doses.
Further, post-menopausal women, who have a tendency towards of blood pressure, should be cautioned about using high doses of licorice for a prolonged period.
. . .
========
Note: While the DGL form of licorice can be helpful for many things, and it can still work against a stomach ulcer, it is not clear if it would affect the borrelia spirochete as the very ingredient that Bradford discusses has been removed.
However, it may not take very much licorice at all and (although he does not address the lyme toxin in his article) Tillotson stresses that he uses only about 5% licorice in a formula.
TerryK
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Member # 8552
posted
Good post Marnie. I use a lot of acetylcholine prescursers because of borrelia toxins. It seems to help quite a bit, especially with the air hunger but also for memory and learning.
Terry
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
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Terry,
Thanks for that link. In addition to the Th1 stuff, it mentions the hit from mercury exposure and the cytokine response. So much to study. This will help.
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
The Th1 response (TNF alpa and IL 1B) are beneficial from MANY MANY respects.
Long ago I listed over 20 benefits of TNF alpha. Need it repeated?
But in high amts. for a long time, these inflammatory cytokines will do a LOT of permanent damage (esp. to the pancreas!).
I WISH a strong Th1 response destroyed Bb.
It doesn't!
(CRP binds Hg...as do some other things.)
The body is trying very hard to destroy this pathogen since our own antibody response is "damaged"...esp. to dealing with Bb's OspB.
I like the idea of "energizing" our own infected defense cells.
Supporting our immune system defense.
Via the use of photon transfer and MgCl.
Bb has 2 major lipoproteins Terry...
***``Phospholipids are an important component of bacterial membranes. Borrelia burgdorferi differs from many other bacteria in that it contains only two major membrane phospholipids:
phosphatidylglycerol (PG) and
phosphatidylcholine (PC).''*** (lecithin).
To build its cell walls, Bb follows the "cholesterol pathway" (among others).
We are trying to destroy Bb's Osp (s) by oxidizing them, but Bb has lots of ways to protect itself AND is capable of rebuilding its Osp(s).
Damaging the cell walls OR preventing them from forming in the first place is merely step #1.
The CWD form then must be "finished off" via osmotic pressure changes or...get this: ultrasound!
Though I think barometric pressure changes can help...which is why...when the moon is "full" or a storm is approaching...
Look at O2 levels at those times...
"Climb every mountain..."
Bb is not a strict anaerobe.
P.S. I posted something recently about silver.
That metal/mineral still scares me because many moons ago, when I was in nurses training, I did see a (permantely) "grey" lady. She looked like someone out of a horror movie. HONEST! 1967 Evanston Hospital, Illinois.
I'm holding hope for gallium maltolate someday. Google it. Curious that LEDs are coated with gallium cmpds! My gut instinct is that the anti-toxin IS going to be something trivalent.
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cottonbrain
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thanks for the post, marnie-- your explanations were really good because i actually understood some of it this time.
i am trying Posts: 1173 | From USA | Registered: Nov 2007
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
If you are thinking about colloidal silver, please go here, please (watch the video):
Gallium coated LEDs...gallium maltolate for cancer and other diseases...trivalent.
And yes, I am very aware of the gallium + (blank) cmpd that coats LEDs. (Blank = WOW).
Is THAT the trivalent mineral that can help us?
Many years ago I wrote to THE Willie Burgdorferi about the use of Mg (of course) and he replied to me directly (snail mail). I have his letter buried somewhere (we moved). Anyway, I remember he was curious about the use of "metals" in lyme disease and was going to pass along my information to others. I was supposed to hear from the "next in line". I never did.
Is the healing metal/mineral a gallium cmpd i.e., the anti-toxin?
[ 04-26-2009, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Marnie, which toxin is this specifically? The only documented toxin that I am aware of is Bbtox1, which presumably acts via ADP ribosylation, similar to exotoxins of diptheria and cholera.
Can you share any references to exotoxins that are proteolytic?
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Marnie
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Member # 773
posted
From what I have read and understand both Bb and anthrax cleave MAPKK-1
So long 2 phosphates from serine.
Wouldn't that mess up the HPA axis?
Bbtox-1 simply stand for borrelia burgdorferi toxin-1
covering up it is MAPKK-1?
You need a dephosphorylation link?
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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Marnie, I was asking if you were specifically referring to Bbtox1, or another exotoxin that I was not aware of. Bbtox1 is sequenced and patented, and the patent application shows the proposed mechanism of action being ADP ribosylation.
Your post indicates that Bb has a exotoxin that is a protease, which is a much different mechanism of action than ribosylation, I was wondering if you could provide a link to more in depth discussions of that toxin.
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