Topic: Maybe....it's the immune system not doing the trick!
CD57
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posted
I've been doing a lot of research lately in prep for my upcoming LLMD appt. So bear with me.
Maybe the reason that some do not improve despite aggressive abx and other therapy is that the immune system is just not strong enough to cooperate. And abx only work if the immune system is there to work, too.
I think the test that looks at immune system function is the IGG/IGM/IGA with subclasses. Mine were on the ow side of normal a few years ago. Maybe the key to therapy working is an immune booster like IVIG or low dose naltraxone in conjunction w/treatment. I do know of a couple of people who got well with IVIG alone (but to the tune of some $80k).
I will be interested to see what my LLMD says on this topic when we see my new IGG with subclasses numbers.
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posted
You could be right. I always responded very quickly to any treatment I went on ... so did my daughter. My LLMD said we did not respond within the norm, that our immune systems must be really strong. So, you might be onto something.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
what lab ran this test for you? i am wondering if quest runs a test like this.
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Marnie
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posted
It isn't. BTW...our antibodies take a few DAYS to be made (other protector factors kick in immediately awaiting their "presence")
Our antibodies can't deal with Bb's OspB (outer surface protein B)
This is why:
Our own antibodies are not "perfect" fighters against Bb, why?
"Characterization of the physiological requirements for the bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi by confocal microscopy.
The bactericidal effect of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but
is dependent on the presence of Ca2+ and Mg2+.
Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations
restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.
The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.
PMID: 9125579
Keep in mind...the "basic" cheap lyme test measures our antibody response...looking for the "perfect" antibodies. Newer tests look for Bb's DNA.
This is why the basic testing often fails. Want to assure a more accurate test? Up your Mg level prior to the testing = more "healthy" antibodies which are then measured.
It might be possible that our OWN antibodies, if they were available could deal with Bb's "toxin".
Our antibodies NEED Ca and Mg. We have LOTS of calcium we can pull from storage to help out in a jam. Not so, Mg...it is far too critical.
There are a LOT of cells that have Mg-ATP in them, but many are "spared" cause if they get depleted, we're in BIG trouble. For example, we aren't going to "borrow" Mg from our cardiac cells.
It appears, from a percentage standpoint that much of the Mg that is lost ***at the outset of lyme*** MIGHT be coming from muscle stores.
A ``novel form of antibody-organism interaction?'' I don't THINK so!
E. Required by immunological process. Magnesium, immunity, and allergy: Mg is required for several steps of immunological reactions
1. Lymphoblastic transformation, a prerequisite of secretion of antibodies by lymphoblasts, requires Ca2+ and Mg2+
2. Mg is required for synthesis of proteins, immunoglobulins included
3. Antibody-induced complement activation is Mg dependent
4. The antigen-immunoglobulin-complement reaction induces degranulation of the mastocyte
BUT...very little Mg is absorbed orally. And Mg levels dive at the outset of lyme. IV doses are needed.
***It is very hard to get Mg back IN the cells Bb is infecting because ATP drives it back in and too little ATP is being made in those cells.***
Mg INactivates an enzyme called HMG CoA reductase which stops the cholesterol pathway (like cholesterol lowering drugs do).
This is ONE of the pathways Bb uses (to build "his" cell walls).
Our own antibodies "job" is to destroy the cell walls (which Bb can REBUILD). So instead, our "free radicals" are trying to oxidize it...burn it up.
Even IF we destroy the cell wall/keep it from forming in the first place that is merely
step #1
in the process to eliminate a gram negative pathogen (have more than one cell wall)
Then we have to deal with the CWD form.
Step #2 involves osmotic pressure changes
OR
Ultrasound to "finish the job".
(I suspect barometric pressure changes which impact the % of oxygen also MIGHT be destroying the CWD forms which would be why many of us have "achy" joints when a storm is approaching. Mother Nature might be helping out...to a degree.)
Then, when Bb IS destroyed, we have to be able to deal with the toxin released.
I think Bb's toxin is cleaving (breaking apart) a zinc-protein of ours. Most toxins are zinc metalloproteinases.
So when Bb is kapoot...destroyed...the release of "his" toxin...
could (theoretically)keep on "cleaving" and release a LOT of zinc into our system which is VERY toxic (google: excess zinc).
We gotta somehow bind that excess zinc.
Citrate?
Zeolite?
EDTA is too dangerous, IMO.
In high enough levels, MgCl can displace NaCl and CaCl. And Mg can even displace Zn.
Bb has "zinc fingers". I think its toxin is cleaving one of our zinc-proteins to get "at" zinc so it can build its zinc fingers (cysteine and histidine bound to zinc).
It also looks to cleave (break apart) MAPKK-1..a protein kinase, kinase.
Bb removes 2 phosphates attached to serine-proteins (ours) and uses them to build glutamic acid (glutamate) which is one of Bb's fav. "foods".
It then metabolizes glutamate -> GABA.
The chloride channels open and in goes NaCl first (more reactive than Ca or Mg).
Bb needs NaCl for motility and it needs Na for its Na-ATPase (we need Mg to make ATP).
Bb does NOT have a "fondness" for calcium.
It has a PKC INHIBITOR. C = Calcium activated protein kinase (transfer phosphate) INHIBITOR.
It has a gene to transport Ca OUT so it can't calcium can't activate PKC.
Back to Bb's zinc fingers (cysteine and histidine bound to zinc):
Histidine can convert to histamine...another reason why Mg is so important.
Besides being an ***anti-inflammatory***, it is an ***anti-histamine***.
Most of our Mg is attached to our ATP as Mg-ATP where it helps to transfer phosphate groups. There is very little in "general circulation".
Being attached to our ATP means it is hard to "measure" that electrolyte...unless one takes a tissue sample (OUCH).
However...new testing methods have just been developed that involve the 880nM wavelength:
"A novel, two-photon probe for the detection of free Mg2+ ions in living cells and live tissues has been developed.
The probe can be excited by
880 nm laser photons,
emits strong
two-photon excited
fluorescence in response to Mg2+ ions, can be easily loaded into the cell and tissue, shows high photostability, and can measure the Mg2+ ion concentration without interference by Ca2+ ions in living cells.
The intracellular dissociation constant (Kdi) for Mg2+ determined by the two-photon process is 2.5 mM, which is suitable for dynamic Mg2+ concentration measurement. In addition, the probe is capable of imaging endogenous stores of free Mg2+ at a few hundred micrometers depth in live tissues using two-photon microscopy (TPM)."
J. Org. Chem., 72 (6), 2088 -2096, 2007.
But like all tests...from research to actual practice is going to take YEARS.
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CD57
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Maureen, you can get it done through any lab-mill, Quest, etc. Mine was through Labcorp.
I've always wondered about this.
Has anyone heard of IGG injections, rather than super expensive IVIG?
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Hoosiers51
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posted
I think you may be on to something, for those of us that are not getting better or it seems to be taking forever with progress.
The LDN has really made me a believer that my immune system may be a major problem. Without it, I didn't herx too much. On it, I actually HERX.
For example, I had stopped the LDN for over a month when I found out I was pregnant, and started Mepron with some new abx that were safe.
However, just found out I miscarried and so I restarted the LDN last night.
I really got thrown for a loop last night and today. Feel like I'm herxing. Woke up with a killer headache, whereas I haven't had this kind of response to my "new" Mepron, etc protocol in the whole past month. The only thing I added was the LDN, and the methylation cycle protocol, but trust me, this felt infectious, not like a detox thing from the methylation supplements.
This morning I woke up thinking, "wow, that LDN is something else."
The immune system theory is also supported for me by the fact that I had a very adverse reaction to the DPT vaccine.
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randibear
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my llmd told me "you don't have an immune system"...so i must be pretty bad....
somebody sneezes and i get pneumonia....
i see sick people....
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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CD57
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Yeah I wonder about this too. I am supposed to start LDN. Hoosier, are you supposed to take this for the rest of your life or what?
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posted
This article was emailed to me, wonder if this is a factor?
Immune exhaustion driven by antigen in chronic viral infection:
A main reason why viruses such as HIV or hepatitis C persist despite a vigorous initial immune response is exhaustion. The T cells, or white blood cells, fighting a chronic infection eventually wear out.
Researchers at Emory Vaccine Center have demonstrated that exhaustion is driven by how the immune system detects infecting viruses.
To recognize the presence of a viral infection, T cells must be presented with bits of viral protein in a molecular frame supplied by other cells in the body -- called MHC (major histocompatibility complex) class I molecules.
In mice infected by lymphocytic choriomeningitis virus (LCMV), T cells became more or less exhausted depending on how much properly framed viral protein was available.
Insights from the research could guide efforts to revive the immune system in people with chronic viral infections. The results are published online this week in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
Working with Vaccine Center director Rafi Ahmed, PhD, postdoctoral fellow Scott Mueller, PhD, examined the effects of limiting what kind of cells could display the viral antigens.
Ahmed is professor of microbiology and immunology at Emory University School of Medicine and a Georgia Research Alliance Eminent Scholar.
By performing bone marrow transplants on genetically engineered mice, Mueller created mice with MHC class I molecules on blood and immune system cells but missing from other cells such as nerve cells and connective tissue. LCMV infects both cells that come from bone marrow and cells that don't.
But the roles each type of cell plays in communicating the infection to the immune system is different.
"We were trying to sort out which of several factors contribute to T cell exhaustion, such as viral antigen, inflammation and where the immune system encounters the virus," Mueller says.
"What came out of these experiments allowed us to answer a broad question: the role of antigen in driving exhaustion."
When injected with LCMV, the altered mice had more energetic and responsive T cells early during the infection. But later, the altered mice had much higher levels of virus and more exhausted T cells. This contrast demonstrates how the level of antigen present is the motor behind immune exhaustion during the chronic infection.
"Early on, the T cells were healthier because they saw less antigen, and only saw it on cells that came from bone marrow," Mueller says. "But later, the immune system had trouble getting rid of the virus because the T cells couldn't recognize infection in cells that were not able to present the viral antigens."
Holly Korschun Emory University
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posted
I know one lyme guy that gets IVIG once a week, he says he feels so much better afterwords. I am going to look into it because my immune system is at the floor and antibiotics alone are not doing the job as good as they could
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posted
I like to think the way to better health is
1. Kill the bacteria 2. Boost the immune system 3. Detox
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Hoosiers51
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CD57,
I don't know. Definitely will stay on it until I feel healthy again. Even after I feel better, I might keep taking it. I have no noticeable side effects, and there aren't any reasons I can think of that it could be bad to continue taking forever.
Like with abx, you obviously don't want to be on them for life because they can take a toll but I don't see that sort of thing from LDN from the little I do know about it.
Maybe at some point I will try going off it to see what happens, but if I start feeling bad I would have to go back on.
I test negative for autoimmune disease as far as I know (negative for lupus in bloodwork, etc) but autoimmune disease runs in my family.
I don't know right now if it is so much that I have any autoimmune issues, maybe more like I am th2 dominant? So I guess the LDN is smoothing that out? I am not super-informed, just sticking with what seems to do something.
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Hoosiers51
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oh I also have this theory that you need the LDN *and* an antibiotic/antimicrobal that is actually hitting what you have to notice a difference.
Like if I were on LDN with an antibiotic that was not hitting whatever infection I have active, I would not notice much difference. It is only when I take whatever Lyme drug is actually treating what I have that I notice herxing.
So I don't think I would just herx on LDN alone, though maybe some people do.
Like once an abx stops working for me, LDN won't keep it working. I still have to switch antibiotics then I notice a difference.
Hope that makes sense. So if you take Rifampin and LDN and don't herx, maybe it is that Rifampin isn't the drug for what you have, not that LDN isn't working.
But I have also taken drugs that never did much before, then with LDN they seem to work better. But I still believe some antibiotics won't work for me no matter what because they just aren't the right thing.
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CD57
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yeah I agree. That would stand to reason, Hoosier. Did you ever consider IVIG?
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CD57
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yeah I agree. That would stand to reason, Hoosier. Did you ever consider IVIG?
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Hoosiers51
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Not seriously because I hadn't really heard of enough people who had done it, and since it seemed like such an uphill battle to get it, I figured unless I was really sure.....etc.
I haven't heard enough stories about it really. If I heard about someone who seemed to have my symptoms which at this point is the predominant fatigue, and they got better I might consider.
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CD57
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I have heard quite a few stories about it now...good ones for the most part. All kinds of symptoms. I am checking into the subcutaneous kind now but doubt i will be able to get it.
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Shosty
Unregistered
posted
Just want to caution that "boosting the immune system" can be harmful if autoimmunity is involved, and some of the people whose Lyme is hard to treat, have an autoimmune component to their Lyme.
Autoimmunity involves the body attacking itself. Strengthening the immune system strengthens that attack.
In fact, a drug like Plaquenil, which can be helpful in treatment, actually suppresses the immune system rather than boosting it!
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randibear
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resveratrol is supposed to boost immune support, righ?
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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D Bergy
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I have come to the conclusion that you can kill bacteria until the cows come home, but if your immune system is not top notch, you will only grow more. This is basically why some old people die of minor ailments turning into more severe infections.
Magnesium and a long term bacterial killing method should be helpful for most people who have had this disease for a longer time.
LDN can help those who have a severely compromised immune system.
It is the old "terrain" theory of disease. Create an inhospitable environment for the bacteria and kill it at the same time. Make its survival a struggle every day.
Dan
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sparkle7
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I tried the immunoglobulin shots. They didn't do much for me except use up my money.
I sort of think of it like this -
If you pour nail polish remover into a fish tank - all the fish die. Then, people are wondering why the fishes immune system didn't respond to the nail polish remover...
Foe whatever reason, some of us are having difficulty getting rid of the problem of Lyme & many other co-factors. If you boost your immune system - how can you fight all of these things? We may have yeast, fungus, viruses, bacteria, parasites, mercury, chemicals...
I think we need to find a way to get rid of the stressors - one by one. Our bodies are overwhelmed. I think long term abx use just makes things worse. It suppresses the bacteria instead of killing it. It also causes yeast overgrowth & makes the body's fungal & good bacteria balance go out of whack.
I don't know the answer but aggressive killing with drugs & boosting the immune system doesn't seem like the right thing to do from my point of view.
Everyone is different... We may need different ways to go about dealing with these issues.
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CD57
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Well then maybe LDN is a good thing for everyone to try without breaking the bank. What say?
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posted
Could someone explain LDN? What is it and what can it do?
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Hoosiers51
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CD57, I tend to agree...but I am biased because I feel that LDN has worked well for me. Since LDN is new for me, I probably will not seriously look into IV or IM IG until about a year from now if I am still not better.
From what I understand, it rebalances your immune system so that it works better.
It only costs me about $25 a month too. I generally feel better on it, and have much stronger responses to my antibiotics, etc.
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CD57
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D Bergy why do you say this about magnesium? I think we are all taking magnesium till the cows come home. And some LLMDs don't even want you taking it. Why is magnesium so important?
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quote:Originally posted by Hoosiers51: CD57, I tend to agree...but I am biased because I feel that LDN has worked well for me. Since LDN is new for me, I probably will not seriously look into IV or IM IG until about a year from now if I am still not better.
From what I understand, it rebalances your immune system so that it works better.
It only costs me about $25 a month too. I generally feel better on it, and have much stronger responses to my antibiotics, etc.
What do you mean by "stronger responses to antibiotics"
Do you mean stronger herxes, or your antibiotics work better?
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Hoosiers51
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Very noticeable herxes, even after taking the first pill of the antibiotic.
For example, when I took one drug in the past it didn't do much of anything, but when I tried it again after LDN, I had an immediate herx, but then the herxes gradually died down.
It was a classic Lyme herx---stiff knees, stiff neck, hot to the touch, so it really seemed like my immune system was working.
So I guess to answer your question, stronger herxes (whereas I used to not really herx) which means in general something is working better.
posted
I have a question I would like to throw in here that no one has really been able to answer for me.
I have been sick for a little over a year now. I have a constant low-grade fever, skin feels hot to the touch, and my WBC count is usually elevated into the 11-13 range. My lymphocytes and neutrophils will be elevated most of the time as well. This happens without being on any ABX.
I was able to get over bronchitis in less than a week a few months ago.
I did test positive for Lyme through Igenex and positive for Babesia but most of my symptoms seem to be Babesia related. I do not feel many Lyme symptoms at all.
I have not taken more than a few weeks of ABX in the past year, just Mepron for Babesia.
Do you think I have a pretty good immune system since my WBC, neutrophils, etc are always elevated? I really feel my body is fighting this naturally with the elevated temp, WBC, etc.
-------------------- Lyme, Babesia Microti, possible Bart. Posts: 173 | From A little south of sanity - PA | Registered: Jan 2009
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sparkle7
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A while back I posted an article that infrared light can make abx more effective... There was a study about it.
In any case, make sure you do not need to take pain meds if you use LDN. Someone here had a big problem with that.
You can not use LDN if you are on any opiods.
I asked my doctor & he said some people get help from LDN & some don't - it's kind of hit or miss. I didn't want to try it since I take pain meds on occasion.
Sorry - I don't know the answer to your question, BlueCheetah.
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CD57
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BlueCheetah I don't know either....it sounds like a good question for an LLMD, do you have one?
Sounds right that it would be hit or miss. Maybe the "miss" are people that wouldn't really benefit from what it does?
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posted
Shots of immune globulin aren't anywhere close to the dose my husband takes. He gets two large bags amounting to about 65 mg once a month.
He falls in the autoimmune category. It has not caused his immune system to go out of control. It has helped him to fight back.
Posts: 984 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
Thanks CD57 and sparkle. I have asked both of my LLMDs and they do not know the answer.
-------------------- Lyme, Babesia Microti, possible Bart. Posts: 173 | From A little south of sanity - PA | Registered: Jan 2009
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sparkle7
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re: Immunoglobulin - it might be helpful but it's quite expensive in the IV form. I just didn't like the idea of it since it's made from blood. The shots were probably not the same as an IV.
I'd rather look for other ways to enhance immune function. The main thing is to try to get rid of the pathogens as best as possible. Whatever is happening, it's too much for the immune system to tackle.
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CD57
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What about those mushrooms everyone was talking about a few years ago?
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