posted
I was diagnosed with Lyme a few months ago. I also have bladder issues.... I am taking bicillin shots, bactrim (for strep d in bladder), plaquenil, and biaxin.
I am concerned because plaquenil is an immunosuppressant... that it will compromise my situation with Lyme disease?
Per the literature I've read (plaquenil)- Methotrexate acts on arthritis in two ways, as an Immunosuppressant to calm down an over active immune system and as an anti inflammatory agent.
Why would anyone be prescribed this combo if it is an immunosuppressant?
Posts: 81 | From Birmingham, AL | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
Yes, plaq is a mild immunonosupressant... methotrexate is a MAJOR one.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Immunosuppressant OR immune modulator?
HUGE DIFFERENCE.
Many abx. "modulate" our immune response.
We DO need to tame down our immune response!!! We absolutely need to get inflammation down. It is doing waaaaaaaaaaay too much damage.
In Romania, they used Mg IV to get inflammation down (and for many other reasons in addition).
Mg is an anti-inflammatory and antihistamine.
In Romania they gave IV Mg AND IV abx.on many subsequent days.
The cure is 2 steps:
1.Tame down the body's response and
2.hit Bb via several ways - pick one(there IS more than one way to destroy Bb!)
(While.... PLEASE...keeping the probiotics up! Waaaaay up.)
Whether you do abx. + Mg or the EM therapies + Mg or pycnogenol + HBO...
KEEP THE PROBIOTICS UP.
You WILL destroy the "good guys" with the "bad".
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
Aniek
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5374
posted
Plaquenil works as a cyst buster, it may also help against babesia because it is an antimalarial, and it reduces pain. My pain has been much more severe since stopping plaquenil.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Can you link plaquenil as a "cyst buster" from legit sources?
From what I've read...***we don't know exactly HOW plaquenil works***, but it DOES look to reduce inflammation.
But there are NATURAL and safe things that can do the same!
Let's take green tea, for example:
"Green tea polyphenols as an anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory agent for cardiovascular protection." PMID: 17584048
CONCLUSION: The findings suggest that vitamin C has antiinflammatory effects and is associated with lower endothelial dysfunction in men with no history of cardiovascular disease or diabetes.
PMID: 16522902
How are your eyes?
'cause plaquenil can cause significant eye problems.
Yes...we must get inflammation down!!! BUT safely...with NATURAL things, IMO.
That is just part of the equation, but a very very important part.
Methotrexate:
"Rats given methotrexate have shown evidence of
***diminished nutritional status of choline***,
including fatty liver,
which can be reversed by choline supplementation (2). Thus, individuals taking methotrexate may have an increased choline requirement."
That would defeat the purpose!!!...you see, one of Bb's Osps IS "lecithin" = phosphatidylCHOLINE.
"Phosphatidylcholine occurs in all cellular organisms being one of the components of the phospholipid portion of the cell membrane."
That is the problem! Bb's cell walls are too much like ours.
It, lecithin, is a fat "emulsifier".
"It is used in a LOT of products, esp. chocolate to make it "smooth".
There are studies that show soy-derived lecithin has significant effects on
lowering cholesterol and triglyceride, while increasing HDL ("good cholesterol") levels in the blood."
Our ROS (free radicals) are trying to "oxidize" that protein...turn it "rancid"...but first it has to get THRU our own cell walls if Bb is camped out in our own defense cells (which in vitro - in a petri dish - shows does indeed happen).
Even if our ROS DO reach Bb and do damage i.e. "fry" its multiple cell walls, it is capable of rebuilding those cell walls...and meanwhile what about the CWD forms?
Crack open an egg and heat it in a pan on top of the stove.
What happens to the proteins?
Wanna talk about the effect of ethanol (alcohol) on proteins?
Do you understand HOW Flagyl is working?
"metronidazole inhibition of aldehyde dehydrogenase"
aldehyde dehydrogenase breaks down alcohol.
Gals have less of that enzyme which is why guys can USUALLY drink us gals under the table.
posted
Is my ILADS LLMD a legitimate source or are you looking for a study? My LLMD was the one who told me it was a mild cyst buster.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Unless the LLMD is involved in real studies and is a scientist, I would think not. Anyone can say anything as we know from the IDSA!
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
Marnie- does this mean we shouldnt be taking Phosphatidylcholine?
thanks
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
This will surprise you:
If you are NOT on ANY meds, no abx:
Mg citrate, 100mg (cut a 200mg pill in half) + one Vitamin B COMPLEX + one lecithin
These three - every 2 hours for 5 doses (min.) per day.
You will feel better...a LOT within a couple of days.
Then you will herx and get scared.
And think it isn't working.
But you "expect" to herx on abx., right?
Why do you think you can't herx on natural supplements too?
Mg (and Ca) are needed to make antibodies.
Mg levels DIVE at the outset of lyme.
That is a problem...a HUGE problem.
Mg is an ***anti-inflammatory***
and anti-histamine.
It INactivates HMG Co-A reductase (an enzyme) which stops the "cholesterol pathway" which IS one of the many pathways Bb takes to build its cell walls.
Okay...I gotta put in an old CD to bring up some old information...
"Characterization of the physiological requirements for the bactericidal effects of a monoclonal antibody to OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi by confocal microscopy.
The bactericidal effect of Fab-CB2 is not dependent on the induction of spirochetal proteases but
is dependent on the presence of Ca2+ and Mg2+.
Supplementation of Ca2(+)- and Mg2(+)-free medium with these cations
restored the bactericidal effects of Fab-CB2.
The mechanism by which a Fab fragment of an antibody destroys a bacterium directly may represent a novel form of antibody-organism interaction.
PMID: 9125579
A ``novel form of antibody-organism interaction?'' I don't THINK so!
E. Required by immunological process. Magnesium, immunity, and allergy: Mg is required for several steps of immunological reactions
1. Lymphoblastic transformation, a prerequisite of secretion of antibodies by lymphoblasts, requires Ca2+ and Mg2+
2. Mg is required for synthesis of proteins, immunoglobulins included
3. Antibody-induced complement activation is Mg dependent
4. The antigen-immunoglobulin-complement reaction induces degranulation of the mastocyte
It sure looks like restoring Mg levels is critical to helping out our immune defense system - our antibodies - to deal with Bb's OspB (outer surface protein B).
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
Dawn in VA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9693
posted
Marnie, I am sending you BIG hugs and thanks for your cellular info.
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
Marnie do you think if we restore Mg, which helps our immune system, that this would also help to produce a positive WB, since it would help to produce antibodies?
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
We can't restore enough Mg unless using IV/IM per Marnie before. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
Well that sucks! How many IVs do we need to get well?
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Plaquenil is a Immunosuppressant. Thats a fact. I worry about that too.
But it has also effects as a cyst buster (there are studies!) and is anti-inflammatory.
Posts: 226 | From earth | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
Well I believe it suppressed my immune system as I was taking it solo. My doc thought I might have an autoimmune reaction and tried treating with plaquenil. I had severe facial pain and eye pain, I'm guessing maybe due to cranial nerve issues. Not sure.
After stopping the plaquenil, these problems have gotten much better.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
Aniek
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5374
posted
I have tried many different natural anti-inflammatories and none have reduced my pain as much as Plaquenil. When I don't take Plaquenil, I have to take a lot more pain medications.
-------------------- "When there is pain, there are no words." - Toni Morrison Posts: 4711 | From Washington, DC | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
This is a 2 step process.
We need to reduce inflammation (TNF alpha AND IL 1 B)
WHILE simultaneously hitting Bb.
Both...bigtime (likely takes a "LOT" of BOTH methods).
MgCl (IV) + (IV) abx. Romanian abstract.
MgCL (IV) + far infrared - EM therapy
Mg + Rife - EM therapy
OR other antioxidants (Vitamin C and green tea extract) + restore the depleted amino acids?
Pycnogenol + HBO.
Benicar works in a different way.
The important thing to remember is you CAN get well.
Be willing to think "outside the box".
Keep the probiotics UP!!!
Posts: 9426 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic