RZR
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20953
posted
Can IV ABX not be given for a few weeks and everything be done? I ask because I know a couple that had undiagnosed Lyme for years. They went to Nevada in May and stayed there for 5 weeks for daily IV therapy. They say they are not healed. Is this possible? Of course, it was expensive, but who wants this to go on for years?
Thanks, Jen
-------------------- Tick bite May 2009 Diagnosed June 2009 Posts: 2329 | From SouthEast | Registered: Jun 2009
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Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10375
posted
Healing vs. remission.
I've been on oral antibiotics for over 2.5 years.
Much, much better now than where I was when I started.
I never did IV's.
No one wants to treat for this long, but the question is....
How long are you willing to treat for true quality of life?
I will happily take one pill a day for the rest of my life,
If only that means I can maintain where I am.
Functional and able to appreciate my children, my family,
My blessings and my life.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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gemofnj
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15551
posted
Jen,
I am sorry that lyme seems so frightening. No one wants to continue treatment for years.
Unfortunately, for the very sick folks who cannot seem to get well dont have much of an alternative in order to reach some kind of normalcy of life.
If lyme is caught early, those people stand a good chance of remission after the recommended treatment.
Borrelia mulitplies very rapidly, and the longer you are infected, the harder is is to treat.
The complicated part is when you have lyme and coinfections for years go undiagnosed. It takes a toll on the immune system.
In addition, if I am remembering correctly what my LLMD conveyed, lyme can only be eradicated during its reproductive cycle, which is I think, every 3-4 weeks and that also lengthens the treatment time quite a bit.
If you really read through these guidelines, it will help you better understand how lyme can be so complicated.
Can anyone help me out on this?
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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Amanda
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14107
posted
There is no straight answer to this question, but there are several lines of thought regarding why Lyme takes longer. I will list a few.
Most bacterial infections can be cured with 10 days of antibiotics. The reason, as stated above, is that the antibiotics work when the bacteria are in their reproductive cycle ( when they divide in two). Most bacteria divide every 4 hours or so. So after 10 days, you have gone through about 40 cycles. This suppresses the bacterial infection down to a point where your immune system can fight off the rest.
Since the Lyme reproduces more slowly, on the order of 3 to 4 weeks, the abx work more slowly. Not all the Lyme bacteria will divide at once, some (but not all) people notice that every month they go through a period of feeling more horrible, when a lot of the lyme is dividing and the abx are killing off a large amount of it.
If you have been sick for a long time, you can have a heavy load of bacteria in your system, which can take longer to clear away.
If you have been sick for a while, your immune system might be in poor shape, and it may take some time for that to recover enough to fight off the infection.
IF you got other infections from the tick bite besides lyme (Babesia, Bartonella, Ehrllichia, etc..), then you will have to get rid of those infections as well as the Lyme, or you may not really recover. These other infections can take a long time to get rid of as well.
5 weeks isn't really a long time for IV in Lyme. Many of the LLMDs treat with IV until the patinet begins to feel better. 3 or even 12 months of IV is not unheard of.
-------------------- "few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Jennie asked: Can IV ABX not be given for a few weeks and everything be done?
Perhaps in a few cases but unlikely in anyone who has been infected for any length of time.
As already mentioned by Amanda, co-infections must be addressed for remission to occur. Antibiotics need the help of our immune system to get rid of infection. Many of the co-infections affect the immune system in such a way that it cannot effectively fight lyme disease.
As already mentioned by Amanda, borrelia is a slow growing infection and thus takes longer to kill.
Also, there may be other factors including viral infections, parasitic infections,(worms), difficulty getting rid of biotoxins (http://www.biotoxin.info/), methylation cycle issues (http://www.lymeinfo.net/methylationblock.html), Kryptopyrrlouria, porphyria, heavy metal toxicity, systemic candida and the list goes on....
For the majority of us who were misdiagnosed for years, one short stint of antibiotics will not fix everything. We will need a lot of help to remediate and repair years to decades of damage.
I'll paste a few other posts of mine that explain in a little more detail in case that is useful to you.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Clin Exp Immunol. 2007 Aug 2;
Mercury exposure as a model for deviation of cytokine responses in experimental Lyme arthritis: HgCl(2) treatment decreases T helper cell type 1-like responses and arthritis severity but delays eradication of Borrelia burgdorferi in C3H/HeN mice.
Ekerfelt C, Andersson M, Olausson A, Bergstr�m S, Hultman P.
Division of Clinical Immunology, and Unit of Autoimmunity and Immune Regulation, Department of Molecular and Clinical Medicine, Faculty of Health Sciences, University Hospital, Link�ping, Sweden.
Lyme borreliosis is a complex infection, where some individuals develop so-called 'chronic borreliosis'. The pathogenetic mechanisms are unknown, but the type of immune response is probably important for healing. A strong T helper cell type 1 (Th1)-like response has been suggested as crucial for eradication of Borrelia and for avoiding development of chronic disease.
Many studies aimed at altering the Th1/Th2 balance in Lyme arthritis employed mice deficient in cytokine genes, but the outcome has not been clear-cut, due possibly to the high redundancy of cytokines.
This study aimed at studying the importance of the Th1/Th2 balance in murine Borrelia arthritis by using the Th2-deviating effect of subtoxic doses of inorganic mercury. Ninety-eight C3H/HeN mice were divided into four groups: Borrelia-infected (Bb), Borrelia-infected exposed to HgCl(2) (BbHg), controls exposed to HgCl(2) alone and normal controls. Mice were killed on days 3, 16, 44 and 65 post-Borrelia inoculation.
Arthritis severity was evaluated by histology, spirochaetal load determined by Borrelia culture, IgG2a- and IgE-levels analysed by enzyme-linked immunosorbemt assay (ELISA) and cytokine-secreting cells detected by enzyme-linked immunospot (ELISPOT).
BbHg mice showed less severe histological arthritis, but delayed eradication of spirochaetes compared to Bb mice, associated with increased levels of IgE (Th2-induced) and decreased levels of IgG2a (Th1-induced), consistent with a Th2-deviation. Both the numbers of Th1 and Th2 cytokine-secreting cells were reduced in BbHg mice, possibly explained by the fact that numbers of cytokine-secreting cells do not correlate with cytokine concentration.
In conclusion, this study supports the hypothesis that a Th1-like response is required for optimal eradication of Borrelia.
PMID: 17672870 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
------------------------------------------------- ME AGAIN
Dr. S goes into detail about lyme and the immune system regarding Th1/Th2 in his book "The Lyme Disease Solution"
According to the book, lyme, chronic viral infections (like Epstein-Barr virus), mercury overload, parasitic infections and chronic allergies all lead to a Th2 dominant state.
The Th1 system continues to try to attack lyme but unsuccessfully. This can be caused by several things but one that he lists is co-infections of babs and bart.
He believes that the result is that the Th1 system loses it's ability to distinguish infected tissue from "self tissue". This leads to autoimmunity and chronic inflammation.
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Tom Grier is a Microbiologist at the University of Minnesota Medical School. Or at least that is the last I heard so I assume he is still there. He has Lyme disease and is a member here. Haven't seen him post for a long time though.
He has written several very good articles. This article is full of great info. Here is an excerpt that pertains to your example about killing bacteria.
http://www.canlyme.com/tom.html "The division time of Borrelia burgdorferi is very long. Most other pathogens such as Streptococcus, or Staphylococcus, only take 20 minutes to double, the doubling time of Borrelia burgdorferi is usually estimated to be 12-24 hours.
Since most antibiotics are cell wall agent inhibitors, they can only kill bacteria when the bacteria begins to divide and form new cell wall.(35,59-62)
This means: Since most antibiotics can only kill bacteria when they are dividing, a slow doubling time means less lethal exposure to antibiotics.
Most bacteria are killed in 10-14 days of antibiotic. To get the same amount of lethal exposure during new cell wall formation of a Lyme spirochete, the antibiotic would have to be present 24 hours a day for 1 year and six months!
Note: Antibiotics kill bacteria by binding to the bacteria's ribosomes, and interrupting the formation of cell wall proteins."
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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Dekrator48
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18239
posted
Hi,
My LLMD says that the reason IV antibiotics alone are not enough is because IV antibiotics do not go inside the cells.
He says that different antibiotics work in different ways to attack the bacteria. Some go inside the cells and some do not.
Some prevent the formation of cell wall protein and others may inhibit cell multiplication.
Some attack the cell wall deficient form, etc and some do not.
It takes combinations of different antibiotics to attack the different forms of the bacteria from all angles.
-------------------- The fibromyalgia I've had for 32 years was an undiagnosed Lyme symptom.
"For I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". -Jeremiah 29:11 Posts: 6076 | From Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183
posted
I just want to point out that lyme disease is not the only illness that takes a long period of time to treat/cure.
Tuberculosis was treated with medications for years when I was a child. Even today, the TB patient takes medication for months and can still relapse and require re-treatment.
I had rheumatic fever as a child. I was on antibiotics off and on from 2nd grade through 9th grade as the symptoms continued to return. That is 7 years!
So, just wanted to point out that lyme disease is not unique in taking a long time to treat.
Perhaps some day we will be able to treat for a shorter period of time--once research into the disease is funded by the Government and more knowledge is gained about the disease.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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gemofnj
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15551
posted
TF,
So sorry you had so much trouble as a child! That is such a shame.
My mom had rheumatic fever as a child too. Do you have to go for follow ups regarding your heart?
Posts: 1127 | From atlantic city, nj | Registered: May 2008
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TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183
posted
gem, no. I had no heart damage.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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