seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Where can one find what is considered appropriate as well as the highest safe dose of an Abx by body weight? I'm trying to look up more on Azithromycin. Thanks. I'm trying to see if 2,000+ mg of Zith daily is toxic. I know it's crazy high.
I see a single dose of Zithromax at 2,000 mg is common for some sexually transmitted diseases (not what I'm using it for).
Maybe Coltman knows? He's the board guru on drug data. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Keebler
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- What does your doctor say?
It's not just about body weight, it's also about the ability of your liver and the condition of your entire vestibular system (inner / middle ear / balance, etc.).
Zith is very tricky, even low dose can damage hearing. Not everyone has the same reaction. Be sure liver support is adequate as that helps.
Porphyria MUST also be figured into the equation since that is coming to light as a mitigating factor regarding liver health in lyme patients. Even if a drug is on the "safe" list for porphyria, lyme patients need to employ protective measures.
From a protocol for Chlamydia Pneumonia (Cpn) which is a similar chronic stealth infection, this treatment protocol of combined antibiotics is also similar to that of chronic lyme.
This is what one of the protocol authors says about the power of NAC to help protet the liver:
. . . "Surprisingly, the only anti-chlamydial agent that did not cause hepatitis in some patients was NAC. In fact, NAC is recognized as being protective.
See attached references.
My conclusion is that NAC should be the first agent in an anti-chlamydial regimen and should be a constant part of the therapy for this protective effect, not to mention it's effect against elementary bodies.
N-acetyl-cysteine (NAC) May Protect Against Meningitis-Related Hearing Loss
Excerpt:
NAC and the other antioxidant each individually protected the spiral ganglion in the cochlea and exerted a number of other benefits to the ear that explained their protective effect.
. . . . -
[ 11-20-2009, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- As for dosing, none of the typical sites will show dosing for lyme disease and an extended protocol. It's best to consult the ILADS and Burrascano guideline sets - and Singleton's book. And, of course, your own LLMD who will know much more than any of this links.
See : Carnitine in the treatment of valproic acid-induced toxicity. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Keebler, this is from an ID doc that wanted me to take NO supplements while on this including no probiotics. The doc said the liver will have enough to deal with and unneeded supplements shouldn't be added. Two ID docs frowned upon supplements.
Keebler, I've done the urine test for Porph###. It was normal. I've been through hundreds of tests and seen 40+ docs. None, except an ID doc, mentioned or cared about this disorder. My LLMD who is world-famous didn't ask a bit about it. I guess people / docs don't care.
500 mg does a little job on my ears. I'm hoping it's temporary. I' guess I'm so sick of being sick and not being able to do stuff who cares anymore.
Unfortunately, my doc could care less about Dr. B's ideas.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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btmb03
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posted
Strangely enough my LLMD is not a big proponent of liver support either...other supplements yes, liver support no.(???)
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Keebler
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posted
- I take so long to compose a post that several others posted in between the one I was answering.
* A urine test is not enough to test for all the types porphryia. Still, liver support is similar either way.
* you said: " . . . 500 mg does a little job on my ears . . . " - well, then 2,000 is going to be harder on your ears. Be careful.
In reply to the ID doctors:
Well, I gotta say that you can do that. But remember what Dr. Stratton says above: these drugs can cause hepatitis if liver protection is not used.
There is a special term for pharmaceutical-induced hepatitis but it is still hepatitis and that can cause deep and profound fatigue, pain and cognitive problems - for the rest of a person's life. It can also scar the liver and create all sorts of other problems.
IMO, the ID doctors are ignorant about the particular supplements. Yes, some supplements on the market are not good. Yes, some patients use stuff without knowing all about it - or take too much - or chase it with a beer or continue other poor habits.
I also think too many use too harsh of "detox" methods and run a huge risk with that. But some methods, if done correctly, save lives.
An informed and educated patient who proceeds with care can protect their future if they find a doctor who is also informed, educated and wise.
NO Probiotics? Give me a break. Any doctor these days who does not understand the importance of probiotics and the danger of systemic and chronic candida infections - well, I think they need to be in another line of work because their patients are being mislead and cheated - and put into harm's way. Candida kills, too, you know. -
[ 11-20-2009, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- Seek,
As for your LLMD not incorporating Burranscano's guidelines, that's fine. Not all LLMDs do. But most do use supplement to support and protect. Some don't. But the patients who get better generally incorporate a holistic approach, even if just in a very special diet full of good nutrients.
Now, after all this is said, I know that one lyme doctor who does not use supplements once explained that it's hard enough for him to be able to treat lyme patients but if he were to use supplements, his practice would be even more in jeopardy.
The AMA and all the top docs just are not well-educated about the proper use of supplements.
The NDs (naturopathic doctors) have four years of medical college focused on this. A few MDs have maybe taken a week-end class here or there.
Many LLMDs don't have the time to learn all about supplements. Understandable. However, many of LLMDs encourage patients to seek complementary care with a LL ND or a LL L.Ac. (Acupuncturist).
We have to realize, too, that some MDs are just anti-supplements, for whatever reason. Their world is tightly wrapped in the pharmaceutical world. It's hard for them to think in other terms. And I can actually understand why - to some degree regarding their time constraints and the complexity of it all.
Liver support needs to be approached carefully as it can lower the therapeutic dose of medicine in the body. But too many doctors just stop and give up rather than look further.
You have to make this decision yourself, of course. What feels right and wise to you? If one of those ID doctors has a good success rate with patients just like you, that would be something to consider.
I gotta say, though, no probiotics? That stance, alone, would not carry confidence were it to be my path.
If you think one of the ID docs can outline a path that will work for you, then I guess you should go with that. Ask for details about their success rate with all this. And, did the patients get better or just not return? If they got better, great. I hope you do, too.
Good luck, whatever you decide. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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seekhelp
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I certainly won't abandon probiotics Keebler. That's a given.
I'll try to be as careful as I can. I'm in a bad place as I can't walk around with tightness in my diaphragm muscles, shortness of breath, and overall weakness. I feel like it's do or die.
I've never had a LLMD do real Babesia Tx. I kind of feel like it's time to take a shot and see if it helps. I've had one day courses or Malarone or 10-day cycles of Clindamycin/Quinine. Completely inconsistent with Dr. B's advice.
I hope I survive. I'll definitely pay attention to liver supplements. The doc is very good about testing vital organs.
I'll closely watch the ears. That's a huge concern of mine. Thanks for the advice.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Keebler
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- With babesia treatment, liver support has to be approached a bit differently. You can't take Milk Thistle with Mepron (or something like that). I'd get expert advice if you desire liver protection with antibabesia drugs so that you use the correct formula or timing. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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seekhelp
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Uh oh, I have none of that expert support Keebler. I'll have to do some reading. I never know what to think as millions must handle Babesia Tx fine treated by ID docs. On that 'Monsters Inside Me' special on Discovery Channel, Joe Blow was back and kicking in what 6 weeks without issues? No liver problms mentioned, no herxing, just pure enjoyable upwards improvement.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Well 2000 mg /day of zith is a lot. Drug has 68 hour half life so you loading yourself with tons of it by doing it daily and in such huge doses. Max recommended dose I saw was 1200 mg/d
Now the thing is you gotta ask a question why you want increasing drug dose?- main reasons are to increase blood concentration and BBB penetration.
There are several other way to help achieve that - increased circulation , synergistic drugs (in case of zith it could be amantadine/plaquenil), fever , parenteral administration.
In case of zithro obvious answer is to do it IV since it has **** poor oral availability (38%). Another way is to use better drug - both roxithromycin and telithromycin are superior to zith in oral bio-availability and BBB penetration
So I personally would not use zith at all unless you get it IV. (next month I am adding macrolide to my Tx and telithromycin is my #1 choice)
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