LymeNet Home LymeNet Home Page LymeNet Flash Discussion LymeNet Support Group Database LymeNet Literature Library LymeNet Legal Resources LymeNet Medical & Scientific Abstract Database LymeNet Newsletter Home Page LymeNet Recommended Books LymeNet Tick Pictures Search The LymeNet Site LymeNet Links LymeNet Frequently Asked Questions About The Lyme Disease Network LymeNet Menu

LymeNet on Facebook

LymeNet on Twitter




The Lyme Disease Network receives a commission from Amazon.com for each purchase originating from this site.

When purchasing from Amazon.com, please
click here first.

Thank you.

LymeNet Flash Discussion
Dedicated to the Bachmann Family

LymeNet needs your help:
LymeNet 2020 fund drive


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations.

LymeNet Flash Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Life span of this spirochete, anyone?

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Life span of this spirochete, anyone?
bystander
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 11893

Icon 1 posted      Profile for bystander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
How long does each borrelia live?

In Cure Unknown, Weintraub covers one theory that says antibiotics destroy the spirochetes' ability to replicate. They still exist and cause problems, they just can't reproduce anymore (so abx stop being effective, since abx work during replication).

Eventually, the non-replicating ones die off too, and then I assume one would be home free.

But how long should that take, for the spirochetes to die a natural death?

Posts: 204 | From ma | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Abxnomore     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
on page two.......up
Posts: 5187 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067

Icon 1 posted      Profile for seekhelp     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Keebler always said 18 months. Others here say Bb is impossible to destroy. Remission is the only possible outcome (fine with me).
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
nenet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13174

Icon 1 posted      Profile for nenet     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think there is a known lifespan in vivo, and even between different in vitro mediums.

Since they have a cyst form that appears to allow them to go into stasis for very long periods of time, I think it becomes entirely dependent on their environment. Since we can't view the course of a single spirochete as it lives out its days in a human host, we are left to essentially guess.

I think Dr. B. and Pamela Weintraub's theory of pulsing an antibiotic, then stopping to allow the Lyme to come out of cyst form, and then hitting it again, seems to have some merit.

I wonder how effective that method is compared to using a cyst buster, etc.

--------------------
Dr. C's Western Blot Explanation

Lymenet Success Stories

ILADS Treatment Guidelines

Medical & Scientific Literature on Lyme

"Long-Term Antibiotic Therapy Improves Persistent Symptoms Associated with Lyme Disease"

Posts: 1176 | From KY | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067

Icon 1 posted      Profile for seekhelp     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nenet, it's sure of a hell lot safer than cyst busters. [Smile]
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
nomoremuscles
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 9560

Icon 1 posted      Profile for nomoremuscles     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think nenet is right, in that there is way too little known to be able to say, with any kind of authority, what the lifespan might be.

But regarding the cysts opening: I would bet that, in addition to opening when sensing a safe environemnt, there is some kind of built-in mechanism or clock that tells the cysts to open periodically, perhaps seasonally. Just like the ticks (and many animals (and likely us) have a seasonal cycle, the spirochetes may too. This would help explain seasonal flares.

Posts: 844 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
bystander
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 11893

Icon 1 posted      Profile for bystander     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks all for your ideas on this.
I should have known it wouldn't be simple.

seekhelp - at this stage I feel stupid even asking, but what's unsafe about cyst busters?

Posts: 204 | From ma | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Keebler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-
Cyst busters are very harsh but nothing about lyme treatment is a walk in the park. You want to treat as assertively as possible while also trying to keep the patient feeling as good a possible.

The key to safety with any of this treatment is to always be mindful of the liver and kidneys. Burrascano's nutritional supplement list is a start to that.

Cyst busters have the the key to many who have regained health. Having an excellent LLMD is the master key, though. We need doctors who are up on the lastest research, have various methods for success and have lots of experience.

----

Seekhelp said "Keebler always said 18 months. " I wanted to clarify that.

Life span can mean different things. I pointed to articles that said 6-18 months treatment. That may not mean the life span has been thwarted, though. The borrelia spirochete can be tremendously adaptive and can live on.

Thirty weeks minimum of for one researcher (see www.clinicaladvisor.com/Controversy-continues-to-fuel-the-Lyme-War/article/117160/ )

18 months minimum treatment is what another recommends to address cycles (see Goldings' article at: http://www.ilads.org/lyme_research/lyme_articles7.html )

The life span of the spirochete can actually be forever unless treated but treatment can take months, years or even decades. Most researchers say a cure is not available and once in the body, it stays in the body. But, we don't know everything yet.

There are many who have had successful treatment and have been well for years - as long as they are mindful to quickly address any symptoms as the pop up. Of those who have succeeded in regaining health (which is almost as good as a cure) my guess is that the excellent self-care measures remain with them.

The cycle (a bit different that span) of the spirochete is something else and that is what really matters so that treatment can work. The way it cycles or goes in and out of L-form / cyst form, etc.

Remember, we learn more everyday so always keep checking. The work Alan MacDonald is doing on biofilm will likely impact all we know about life cycle/span maybe even the hope for an actual cure. We hope.

And, looking back up to the original question, you ask: "But how long should that take, for the spirochetes to die a natural death?"

Well, that is also something the researchers on working on. I can read very little and only snippets. As for what can keep the spirochetes from going of forever, I've seen a few things about that but nothing groundbreaking. We still have a long way to go in that department.

Spirochetes have actually been around since before the Ice Age.

For practical purposes, regaining health (even if having to be mindful of possible flare ups) would be pretty good. It does seem that the flare up get less and less for some.

For more detail beyond the ILADS site ( www.ilads.org ) or the LDA's site, you might look at MacDonald's work. For a start, a Google search of: "Alan MacDonald" biofilm

Some good detail here, too:

http://www.klinghardtneurobiology.com/library.htm

Klinghardt's Neurobiology page

-

Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
coltman
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 21272

Icon 1 posted      Profile for coltman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by seekhelp:
Nenet, it's sure of a hell lot safer than cyst busters. [Smile]

Why you think cyst busters are unsafe?
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | LymeNet home page | Privacy Statement

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:

The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey
907 Pebble Creek Court, Pennington, NJ 08534 USA


| Flash Discussion | Support Groups | On-Line Library
Legal Resources | Medical Abstracts | Newsletter | Books
Pictures | Site Search | Links | Help/Questions
About LymeNet | Contact Us

© 1993-2020 The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Use of the LymeNet Site is subject to Terms and Conditions.