Topic: Who has not benefited from Zhang, Cowden etc herbal protocols.
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
When I hear success stories I am tempted to try the alternative treatments. I am wondering how many people out there have used these protocols unsuccessfully? What was your experience?
Both times I tried these protocols, actually did both at once, i relapsed. I had taken months of heavy duty abx and was in a state of near remission but was having side effects from the drugs and decided to quit and go on herbs. When the bacteria became active again I was told it must be a herx so I just kept on doing the protocol until several months later I was very sick again. It seemed at first to be helping but then it wore off and I wonder now if you need to rotate these herbs frequently so the bacteria do not build resistance. I was told by Buhner and Zhang that this is not the case. I have not taken Buhners protocol yet. I was taking MUCH more than what is recommended by Zhang or Cowden. Five to seven times as much! I was using HH capsules for bartonella which failed the worse. After doing Samento I bought toa fee cat's claw from another source and took 1500mg a day with 1000mg of grapefruit seed extract for the lyme. I don't think I have very many lyme symptoms so this may be working but I was pretty clear of lyme having taken Ketek. After that my symptoms were mainly bartonella. My LLMD told me that some of the herbs do help with borrelia but nothing is effective against bart. Success to me is long term, a year without symptoms. Borrellia goes into and out of remission. Even before I got sick I would feel well and then get sick again which is why I never connected what was happening. Thanks for your input.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
Did you do the Cowden according to his instructions? With the detox herbs and on his schedule? Just curious.
Posts: 360 | From New York | Registered: Oct 2009
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Your poor response may have been due to your stressed liver (after tons of antiobiotics too) crying for help !
glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Antiparasitic herbs and salt/c is what helped me the most to get rid of these infections. I was on antibiotics for 4 yrs prior. I think the key with herbs is that they have to be able to get rid of the parasites which seem to be a major player in Lyme disease. Check out
This is EXACTLY what came pouring out of me when I did these protocols,
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Banderol was pretty effective for my bart, I feel, even though I only took it for a month or so.
I didn't do the whole protocol, though. Just added banderol to my abx regimen for a bit.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
I did the Cowden herbs religiously for almost a year. They didn't help in the long run.
In my case, I'm not absolutely sure I actually have Lyme. I'm kind of doubtful my "clinical" diagnosis is correct. I did "herx" from some of the herbs but it may have been due to killing parasites or pathogens other than Lyme.
So, I can't recommend that they work or not. It's very hard to tell with these types of illnesses since the tests are not very accurate & there are so many other issues involved. It's pretty much trial & error.
I would really like to be able to recommend the Cowden herbs since I was on a program where they gave me the herbs for free. Unfortunately, they weren't a cure in my case.
Everyone is different, though.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I had the same results from Cowden as you did. I was feeling pretty well on abx, and symptoms got worse on Cowden. At first I loved it. I think it really helps with detox and it felt good to be off abx. But after time, I started feeling worse again.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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ukcarry
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posted
Are we talking about the original Cowden here or the Condensed Cowden, which claims a higher success rate?
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
It was the original Cowden herbs - not the condensed version.
I believe that the herbs do have benefits. It wasn't a cure for me, though.
Some of the herbs were very strong for me like Cumanda & Quina. The Enula was also very purgative. I didn't have a strong reaction to the Samento like some people do. It actually felt good for me to take the full dose.
I think you may be able to get less expensive versions of some of the herbs from other sources. I would do that if I was on a limited budget.
I don't know if any "energetic" additions to the herbs will increase potency or make them more effective. I'm kind of doubtful about that sort of thing - although, I'm not closed minded about that form of healing.
It just seems kind of far fetched for a commercially available product. I could be wrong... The placebo effect is quite powerful. I'm not against anyone who gets well due to that or other reasons.
I feel comfortable with using herbs for healing. I think they have many benefits. I did try abx for about 9 months with no discernible result, as well.
Hello 6 - glad to read that you are doing well & teaching Pilates!
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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nefferdun
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posted
I took more than the recommended amount by Zhang or Cowden but not according to what Dr. S recommends in his book on bartonella. He says the amount of Cumanda or HH needed to treat bart should be "very high" and what is recommended by Zhang and Cowden is "very low". I had two of Dr. S patients tell me what he recommended and used that much. Zhang came up with the HH-2 capsule so DR. S' patients did not go broke.
I wonder if resveratrol works. Hopefully I will be able to tolerate Rifampin long enough to get rid of the bart and not need herbs. I was taking up to $600 of herbs a month and they did not work for me - for sure did not cure bart as I am right back to where I was a year ago. They may have helped with the borellia though. I also took a lot of things for detoxing etc. like Acetyl cysteine, alpha lipoic acid, ashwaganda, lactoferrin, quercitin, magnesium, B vitamins, fish oil. . . over 40 pills and capsules a day.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- nefferdun,
the clarification about dosage helps explain that - sorry - I might have missed that above as my eyes skip alot - so, I will alter my reply so it's not so reactive.
Sounds like you were within reason according to Dr. S, then. You have good support, too.
Sure wish Santa's bag had the perfect answers. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I did Zhang herbs for about 3-4 months. Since I heard the comments about needing more HH than the 3 caps a day for Bart, I took 6 HH a day instead of two a day for a month. The next month after that I took 6 HH-2 caps (equiv to 12 HH a day!).
I had no response to any of this at all nothing good or bad, so I stopped. All my increased HH/HH-2 dosing was done while on the other herbs too.
Posts: 526 | From NJ | Registered: May 2007
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sparkle7
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Member # 10397
posted
The Cowden Cumanda & Quina were very strong to me. I would suggest to start off slow. For me, a herx was an increase in pain. That definitely happened when I took the Cumanda & Quina.
Even at 1-2 drops per dose when I first started out. I did get it up to the recommended dose. I don't remember how long it took - maybe a month or so...?
So, if you or someone is suggesting to take more of specific treatments/herbs - it's best to do so gradually until you know how you will respond.
Herbs can be just as strong as drugs.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
I was taking the Buhner herbs, when I started having seizures. Ugh.
Taking the vitamins for seizure control has helped.
My LLMD uses some herbals--he started me out on a Babs herbal before Mepron/Zith. This helped.
I've also taken Bart herbs from him.
Now, I'm taking Allergie Immun drops from Germany.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
So some people do feel they have had a positive response but not a curative one. I have not yet heard of anyone that was cured by herbs alone. It seems most people struggle with the abx and take the herbs with them or as breaks between abx, but when herbs are used exclusively it is not curing anyone on these forums. People write they are using one thing and then another. I am just trying to put together what works and what doesn't, what is worth the money and what isn't.
Maybe a lot of this depends on a persons immune system so people who are stronger, in better health with healthier habits get well faster regardless of what they are taking. I think a lot depends on what and how many co infections we have as well. I have read that our bodies might be able to knock out some strains of bartonella without abx, if it were not for the borrellia making our immune systems worthless.
There are so many of us on these forums. It seems like an excellent research project for someone to put everyone's experience together and find out what is working and what isn't. It is discouraging because even the LLMDs offer so many conflicting opinions about how to treat. People that drop out, like me, are not even counted one way of the other as a success or failure. When these doctors count their success stories are they taking into consideration those people that they have never heard from again. How many people have ordered herbs from Cowden, used them diligently for a long time and then just quit ordering? I am one of those people for Cowden and Zhang but no one ever contacted me to see how I was doing so how can they come up with a statistic that their herbs are curing 85%?
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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MariaA
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Member # 9128
posted
I got symptom-free after 6 months of oral antibiotic monotherapy followed by a year+ of Buhner. I later got reinfected and picked up a couple of coinfections that I'm sure I didn't have before, and that time around herbs didn't do much (I think the main problem the second time around was babesia, and I'm pretty sure that in some cases, there's not a really great surefire herbal-only route to beating babesia. During my (successful) fight with babesia, I did see some major help from cryptolepsis, although I was also using Mepron and Alinia and artemesinin.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
sparkle7
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Member # 10397
posted
Alot of people seem to be doing well with Rife. Seems that the herbs in combination with Rife may be a better idea than abx with Rife. I'm not a big fan of taking long term abx.
In the long run, I don't think I have Lyme. I think I was mis-diagnosed. I'm not upset with my doctor - I just don't think I had Lyme. So, my experience is not typical in regards to Lyme & co-infections.
I would probably try Rife if I thought I had Lyme.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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Amanda
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Member # 14107
posted
I tried buhner, Cowden , Zhang, Rife, homeopathy, accupuncture, low level laser therapy, detox, and about two dozen things like mushroom extracts, cranial sacrcal and none of them , NONE OF THEM did a darn thing for me. Before or during abx
Inn fact, I found out that the milk thistel I was taking decreased mepron concentrations in my blood, thus renedering the drug less effrective.
Also found out that my run of the mill nultivitamin was decreasing the effectiveness of the flagyl, because of the Vitmin C and E.
-------------------- "few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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sparkle7
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Amanda - sorry you had to go through all that. How long have you been on abx & have your results been any different?
There seems to be a subset of people where nothing seems to work. It may be that we either don't have Lyme or that we have Lyme & something else.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
my llmd says its the abx that make the bugs resistant-and that is why a combo f herbs is btter...we'll see
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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nefferdun
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Member # 20157
posted
A local chiropractor charges five hundred dollars for the first visit using the rife machine and one hundred and fifty for each additional visit. A machine can be three thousand dollars. There is so much controversy about its value that I could never get the trust to spend the money to try it. I think trust is a huge issue for me regarding treatment. It really does seem that there are a lot of people exploiting desperate people with lyme.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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sparkle7
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posted
That's pretty extreme for a chiro to charge that much. I guess if you buy a Rife machine & it doesn't work - you could sell it over the internet... The ones I was looking into were about $1200.
I haven't tried it. Seems people with Lyme do pretty well with them. I've seen more positive responses than negative ones on message boards. Could be the placebo effect?
Alternative remedies (in general) take a bit more patience & trial & error than drugs.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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nefferdun
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Alternative treatments are also a lot more expensive and for a lot of people end up to be a waste of time and money. I believe the only time anyone should use alternative treatment is when they believe they are in remission and they want keep their immune system boosted. Or when they just can't take abx because they have a chemical sensitivity. When they are really sick and using herbs I believe it has to be a huge amount of various kinds. You sure won't cure or even control bartonella using a few drops of Cumanda or 3 HH capsules a day. That is like believing in the tooth fairy. Even in Buhner's book he says which abx works best for the infections so he is not saying the herbs are the conclusive answer. And all of the herbs he suggest must be taken in a very high doses to have any effect. It is too bad there has been no studies on how to treat chronic lyme due to the CDC promoting the non existence of it. That leaves all of us open to fraud and exploitation. When I first started taking various protocols I thought I was doing better so I posted about it. Imagine the people that read my posts and went out and bought the same stuff thinking it was the cure. I am trying to correct that.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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massman
Unregistered
posted
I looooooooooove drugs !
I am never done bashing alt. treatments ! NEVER !
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Do you know anything about methylation? I honestly think all these supplements will only make you sick.
I stopped taking all supplements 2 months ago.
My personal opinion is that many diagnosed with Lyme may or may not be lyme, and possibly not lyme, but really have a problem which is a "state of body." I believe that other things can make us sick and there are some good hypotheses out there.
I personally was never bitten by a tick, but have been diagnosed with lyme babesia erlichia and bartonella. I even have a blood smear with rings from Dr. Fry. Some say well flies, fleas and mosquitos carry these things! Well if that was the case I would not be one of two people in their early 20's THIS SICK in Southern California. Everyone would be sick.
The problem is there are no answers.
I do know my methylation was totally impaired and all the $(*% that people take here on the forums, and also recommended from the doctors made me sick as hell. SO did the medicine they recommended.
It left me bedridden for a year and hopeless.
I am now working full time again, can drive and live my life.
My fear is that a majority of the people here are approaching their sickness from the wrong angle. There are no answers so everyone hops on the lyme band wagon.
There are other things that can make you THIS sick or a combination, or susceptible such as exposure to chemicals and medicine. People get this sick after taking CIPRO. For me I think it was a specific chemical exposure and possibly in part to a previous surgery I had that could have caused a deregulation in the nervous system.
I have overcome my darkest days however through a new therapy that works on rebuilding and detoxing the body. Not many are doing it, but those who are are seeing good results.
Anyone who wants to talk more PM me.
PS. Honestly how can Cowden know what and what doesn't work when even testing cannot get it right..
He is doing educated or non educated guesses at best.
Posts: 9 | From usa | Registered: Nov 2009
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posted
I did cowden for 6 months in 08 and didnt have any reaction good or bad. I only got a bit weak for the first few weeks with Samento. Then it was no prob. I never missed a dose. I did the original protocol and also a really healthy lyme friendly diet. $3 grand later, nothing. brad
Posts: 24 | From Studio City, Ca. | Registered: May 2007
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canefan17
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Member # 22149
posted
Wow. I'm supposed to start Cowden soon.
This is half my problem... i can't get excited for any treatment I do.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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