posted
I am taking Nutrimedix Cumanda (up to 10 drops (2xday) starting 5 days ago), Samento (10 drops(2xday) for last 2 months) and GSE (Agrisept, 10 drops/2x a day) for last 4 months.
I am tolerating the Samento and GSE with no problems but cumada seems to be causing some depression and overblown emotional responses, as well as some digestive upset and arthritis flare-ups. I am hoping this is temporary (herx?) and will go away when my body adjusts in another week or so.
I would also like to hear from anyone who has cured lyme and coinfections with these herbs.
What's this about samento causing spirochetes to go into cyst form?
Brain fog seems to be getting worse. Misdialing phone numbers, forgetting lots of things, feeling overwhelmed with too much to do, confusion, hard to multi-task. I am ok with plenty of sleep, but often by the end of the day - 3 to 4:00 - I want to go lie down. I HATE cooking dinner!
I have started back on B12 injections, which helped me before, but I have been off them for about 3 months.
I can concentrate well with no distractions - like in the middle of the night when everyone else is asleep!!!
Also I can walk around, go up and down stairs, and work hard during the day, but if I exercise hard or practice simple yoga, I get really dizzy after 30 minutes and have to lie down. Is this lyme or what? I have always been athletic but my coordination and strength are shot on the tennis court now, so I've quit.
Posts: 97 | From Great Lakes state | Registered: Jul 2008
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
Are you not taking any abx?
I took various herbs, way over the amount recommended, including those you mention, and got worse. So you might not be herxing if you do not feel progressively better. I made that mistake, thinking I was herxing and being told I was herxing by the manufacturers and people online, when in fact I was in a tail spin.
If someone can tell me other wise, I am open to hear it, but I have never heard of anyone being cured by herbs alone. Usually they use herbs with abx and/or as a follow up after treatment.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
Thanks for answering. I am sorry you didn't get cured from the herbs. How long did you try them? I hope you are better now - are you still treating? what has helped you?
I have been feeling better (or at least not worse) after I got used to the samento and GSE, but the cumanda is harder and has more side effects. I believe it goes after bartonella.
The nauropath I am seeing says she cured herself and others with these herbs. I guess I will see how I feel in the next few weeks, then decide if I need to change protocols.
An LLMD put me on doxy for 5 months and my gut just got worse. I also went to a DO who has lyme who treated me for heavy metals; I don't know if it helped.
Taking Capracite for parasites really helped (the nautropath proscribed it) and cured my gut problems until I got to 9 drops of Cumanda.
Posts: 97 | From Great Lakes state | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I had no problems with Samento or Cumanda with Parsley. I also rotated the Cumanda with Banderol.
Been on it over a year now but still got the brain/cognitive issues.
I think it's kept the lyme in check physically. Don't know what would happen if I went off.
Considering a round of Rocephin for the brain issues and go from there.
-------------------- Bart Henslea 1976 Fibro/CFS/arthritis 2004 Lyme diagnosed 2007 3 1/2 years treatment with oral combos, Cowden, IV roc. BW herbs. Off all abx in 12/10. Feeling good. Posts: 647 | From NY | Registered: Dec 2007
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lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
Yes, Samento can force the spirochetes to go into cyst form but you are using GSE which goes after the cyst form so you should be okay providing you are using high enough doses.
I am also using Cumanda among others.. No abx.. So far so good.
posted
lululymemom, Thanks, that's a relief. Guess I forgot..... How high a dose of GSE? I use 10 drops 2x/day. what other herbs/meds are you taking, if you don't mind telling me? anything for brain fog?
Glad you are doing well w/o abx.
TS96, I liked Ron Paul when people were laughing at him! Who can argue with someone who wants to balance the US budget? But I digress.......
Are you taking other meds and what are your doses, if you don't mind?
Are either of you on the Cowden protocol?
Do you see a naturopath, LLMD, or what?
Posts: 97 | From Great Lakes state | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
twinkle, At the moment I'm taking Andrographis and Pycnogneol Supreme by Source Naturals along with the limited Cowden as stated above.
I'm also on low dose cortef and florinef for NPH and low dose Naltrexone which at 4mg gives me out of this world vivid dreams and fatigue so I cut back to 2mg.
ohhh and Detoxamin for my heavy metals esp lead at the moment.
That's about it other than a few other supps. I see a LLMD and lyme friendly Integrative Dr. for my PCP.
-------------------- Bart Henslea 1976 Fibro/CFS/arthritis 2004 Lyme diagnosed 2007 3 1/2 years treatment with oral combos, Cowden, IV roc. BW herbs. Off all abx in 12/10. Feeling good. Posts: 647 | From NY | Registered: Dec 2007
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lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
Twinkle: I have just recently started treatment and I am taking Colloidal Silver.. 10 ppm.. Cumanda, GSE capsules (400mg), Artemesia, Sarsaparilla, as well as Pekana detox and Magnesium...
This may not be the treatment of choice for everyone, but I feel good on this and don't mind the late night herxes too much. Purge Parasitis (by New Roots) can help a great deal with brain fog.
Since I have had Bartonella over 10 years, I am not in a big hurry to find a cure. Just looking to feel better.
posted
Lymeor, I'd like to know about that Swiss guy also! Or what anyone says about Samento making lyme worse.
lulu and TS96, thanks to you both for sharing your protocol. I will ask the practitioner I will see in a month to see what she thinks about trying some new stuff.
I am really sorry about that nasty bartonella. You might PM Tickbattler as in the next week or two, she will be seeing a new Dr. who specializes in gut issues, which I think Bart. causes. She has been using herbs for her kids (after 2 years of abx) and other alternative methods along with trying to eliminate sugar, flour, gluten, etc, because her kids have developed allergies.
From my symptoms, I think I have Bart as one of my co-infections, but I have no symptoms of Babesia.
Some think that if you treat the gut, you treat Lyme and Bart in particular. I read a book that someone on Lymenet recommended, called The Second Brain (I think that's the title!) by a scientist/MD who is pretty funny; it's written for Drs, but you can get the general idea by skipping over anything that's too technical. I interloan many Lyme books from the library to save $$$$.
Thanks for the nudge on parasite cleanse. That helped me a lot 6 months ago! Some believe you have to take it 1 - 2 times a year, because it's so easy to get re-infected. I believe that the cleanse and B12 injections helped my brain fog in the past.
I will go back on the cleanse as soon as I can get up to 10 drops of Cumanda. It sure is killing something (hopefully not me!!) because my symptoms get worse after i take it. This happened with GSE and Samento, which I took one at a time, working up to 10 drops, then started on the next herb. Annoyingly slow, but at least I could function. Now those herbs don't cause symptoms.
Anyone know possible causes of dizzy spells?
Posts: 97 | From Great Lakes state | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lymeorsomething
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16359
posted
Supposedly a Swiss researcher, Martin Sievers, found samento to exacerbate borreliosis in an in vitro study. However, there is no reference to his work on pubmed. I could not find an abstract online either.
Eva Sapi found samento to be very useful but there is a slight conflict of interest in that study as well.
So as usual we have to try it and hope something good happens
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Thanks for the update on that Swiss researcher! I will see how it goes for the next few months, then decide.
Hope you are well.
Posts: 97 | From Great Lakes state | Registered: Jul 2008
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ukcarry
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Member # 18147
posted
Nefferdun, I have heard of quite a few people who are better after herbs alone, though I agree that, especially fo early Lyme, it is better to try them along with antibiotics [and get the liver tested regularly]. Stephen Buhner encourages people to be on both.
Cowden claims a very high success rate with his Condensed protocol, including on those who have previously failed to recover on antibiotics.
I am not bashing antibiotics, just repeating what I've read.
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
I echo nefferdun. I have lyme and a bad case of bart. Bart is an accute, not a slow moving desease. I got really sick on herbs for only two weeks. Now I am on levaquin...
Posts: 99 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2010
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onbam
Unregistered
posted
I relapsed hard on Samento (w/ Banderol), so while Eva Sapi says it's good, I'm more inclined to believe Swiss researcher Martin Sievers, who said it promoted Bb growth.
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posted
I am very confused by the definition of "drops" as indicated on many herb tinctures. Is a drop like a rain drop, or like a tube that you squeeze out (like many drops)?
Can someone clarify? Thanks.
Posts: 99 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2010
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posted
A drop is just one single drop not many drops out of the tube/dropper.
Also it is interesting to see the debate about Samento/Cat's Claw. Everyone is different so not everyone will have the same effect from herbs or meds for that matter.
I do know of someone who has gotten well and she used only herbs/naturals to get well. In fact her primary herb was Samento.
So I think it just depends on the person.
Also for those that didn't know...Cat's Claw (which Samento is) contains quinovic acid glycosides, the natural compounds upon which synthetic quinolones are based.
So the quinolone antibiotics are based off of the compound that is in Samento/Cat's Claw.
That makes me inclined to think that Samento/Cat's Claw could actually work for some people.
I would like to try Samento myself. I have been meaning too but haven't gotten around to it yet.
I have been using Cumanda. I am only on 4 drops though. It seems to be good for keeping yeast at bay (which is what my LLMD recommends it for).
Also when I first started taking it I could only get to one drop every couple of days because it would give me a herx or something in the middle of the night. That is why it has been slow going for me.
Take Care! Pam :-)
-------------------- Sick since 10/2001. Tested CDC positive for Lyme 10/2008 through Quest and Igenex. Started treatment 1/2009 with LLMD. Lyme, Erichilosis, Chlamydophila Pneumoniae, Q Fever, Strep Syndrome and probably a few others I am forgetting. Posts: 451 | From Virginia | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Thanks Pam for answering my question. I have been doing Quitenssence and just started Cumanda (10 drops x 2 per day). I did not noticed siginificant side effects or anything...
I am on so many pill, herbs, abx, I am just hoping that something might work...
Posts: 99 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2010
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Hoosiers51
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Member # 15759
posted
A drop is just like a teeny tiny raindrop. The second thing you described is called a "dropperful"...which is a misnomer because a lot of times, the fullest the dropper will get is about half full, so a "dropperful" is normally about half of the glass tube, visually.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
A drop is just like a teeny tiny raindrop. The second thing you described is called a "dropperful"...which is a misnomer because a lot of times, the fullest the dropper will get is about half full, so a "dropperful" is normally about half of the glass tube, visually.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Thanks Hoosiers, I was wondering about dropful too. Now it is all clear. By that definition, I am doing 2-3 dropfuls of Quintessense x 2 per day...
Posts: 99 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2010
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