Bugg
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My LLMD (Dr. C in Missouri)just sent me a handout on the HCL protocol. He said he attended a medical conference last fall where a physician claimed to have been curing hundreds of lyme disease patients using the HCL protocol (you take a certain number of HCL pills along with an HCL activator pill) for a period of thirty days. Anyway, he said he's skeptical but two of his patients have tried it and seen tremendous benefit. I just ordered the pills and am about to start the protocol. Anyone here have any experience with this? I'm just wondering what to expect/side effects etc???
Thanks so much--
A
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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oxygenbabe
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Hi Bugg I sent you a PM. I know nothing about this approach, do you know who the doc is or what the conference was? Would appreciate any leads thank you. Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Bugg
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Thanks for all of the inquiries/interest. I will call Dr. C tomorrow and try to obtain the name of the doc who spoke at the medical conference on HCL. In the interim, I thought I would provide you with the pertinent portions of Dr. C's handout on the "Betaine HCL Protocol"... "HCL is made in the human stomach to help digetst food. Some docotrs are of the opinion that many Americans don't produce enough HCL...Dcotors have given HCL to patients for heartburn or gastritis. The theory is that conditions like heartburn are due to LACTIC acid from poorly digested food, not from too much hydrochloric acid....the protocol is fifteen capsules three times a day with food for thirty days of "Quantum Betaine HCL." Also, the acid has to be "activated" by taking three capsules of "Quantum HCL Activator"(a natural source of potassium) three times a day with meals for thirty days."
As an interesting aside, I decided to try this protocol based on some research I read on the NIH's website regarding hypochloric acid (not hydro) which is a necessary component of white blood cells. Apparently, certain forms of tick-borne diseases suppress the hypochloric acid content, rendering the white blood cells in the immune system ineffective against this bacteria. Additionally, I've read that some people who are having success with the Vitamin C/salt protocol are altering the acidity content in their systems. Based on all of this, I think it's at least worth researching further.
Like I said previously, I just started the protocol today and, if I can stand it for 30 days, I will let you guys know what happens...
A.
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
This sounds really interesting. I personally speculate that there is more to our affliction than just the mysterious bacteria. It would not surprise me if most of us also have some immune glitch , and in this case the gut is part of the immune system .
Would you be so kind to post any other info you find on this and also your results as you experiment .
Something else has to be involved in this picture , because I have known people who have taken MASSIVE doses of ABX , and are still ill years later .
I am amazed that your doc has a couple of patients who think this is helping them ! At least this is cheap . Maybe I 'll go to Wal mart tonight .
posted
15 capsules 3 X's a day is a lot of HCL to take orally. It would take a ton of minerals for your body to nutrualize it to keep from becoming too acidic. I like what the Townsend Letters article on IV HCL had to say about it. The following is a few paragraphs form the Pdf file (which takes a long time to download).
"This work originated with Burr Ferguson, MD of Birmingham, Alabama. During World War I he had been a battle surgeon in France where he was seeing the ravaging effect of bacterial infections in wounds. Dr. Ferguson picked up the concept of treating bacterial infections with intravenous hydrochloric acid from another surgeon, Dr. Granville Hains in 1927. Dr. Heins had been using intravenous hydrochloric acid one part per 3,000 in treating pruritus ani with success. Dr. Ferguson then began treating many kinds of bacterial infections successfully with intravenous infusion of 10cc of one in 1000 hydrochloric acid. When he tried to publish his results he found that no leading medical journal would accept his report
There was a medical news magazine then that reported on topics that today may be called alternative medical treatments. It was called The Medical World. In 1932 as a student at Purdue University, I subscribed to it, I think for $5.00 a year. Dr. Ferguson wrote extensively for this publication and many not-too-orthodox doctors read what he wrote and treated bacterial infections with hydrochloric acid infusions. Some of them reported success in so doing in The Medical World.
Dr. Ferguson reported that very soon after an infusion of hydrochloric acid, there would be a marked increase in white cell count and in phagocytes; also that red cells had an increase in content. He suggested that one infusion of hydrochloric acid would increase oxygen in red cells in excess over what would result from maintaining the patient in an oxygen tent. Dr. Ferguson reported that in treating gonorrhea with bladder irrigations of 1 in 1000 hydrochloric acid, he was able to get negative smears in two days with even more rapid relief from the symptom of burning and pain.
I am going to give one case here of the use of hydrochloric acid in treating a bacterial infection, a case to show its remarkable fast antibacterial effect. The case was reported in The Medical World. The doctor was William Howell, MD of the small town of Lexington, Tennessee."
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Annxyz: I am amazed that your doc has a couple of patients who think this is helping them ! At least this is cheap . Maybe I 'll go to Wal mart tonight .
From what I've heard, it's NOT cheap at all. At least not the supplements that he is selling.
Wouldn't IV HCL be an entirely different thing?
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Bugg
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posted
Actually, it is quite cheap. I ordered both the HCL and the activator on-line and both only cost around $40 from purehealthsource.com....However, again, I don't know if this will work or not. I know we all keep trying a million different things to see if there's any improvement. I'll try to get more info from Dr. C about this and report back. Additionally, I'll report my progress, if any, to you guys. I hate for people to start purchasing this if it's just another dead-end...Dr. C said if it helps, I should know in 30 days....
I'll keep you posted...
A
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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luvs2ride
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My doctor had me on this and I didn't document exactly when I began or when I stopped but I would estimate I took it for at least two weeks.
Eventually though, I began to have heartburn immediately after taking it so I stopped and my doctor nodded in agreement.
I have read that if you do not need the HCL, your stomach will hurt, but if you do need it, you will tolerate it very well.
I never knew until reading this thread today that it could be effective against lyme. Makes me want to start it again.
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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treepatrol
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Its in Pdf. This use to be used years ago for syphilis
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Truthfinder
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Thanks so much for posting about this, Bugg. This is very interesting. I hope you are able to get a little more info from Doc C.
Luvs, when you tried this, were you on your Vegan Diet? And I assume you always took the HCL with enough food?
I ask this because most things on a Vegan Diet are very easy to digest (as I understand the diet). This MIGHT have contributed to your heartburn reaction. Just a thought.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Thanks so much for adding this information. The story about the doctor using it and its effect on phagocytes is amazing ! Who would have thunk it ?
It makes me wonder how many other cures have been dismissed because the medical community did not want to open their minds to something that seemed unconventional .
I still believe that it will most likely be a lyme sufferer who will unlock the mystery of this bacterial puzzle . Who knows , maybe a member of this forum. There are certainly some good minds here that are dragging around beleagured bodies .
I am really anxious to know more about this , and about how to proceed or employ the idea of ucing the acid .
treepatrol
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Yep no herbs No abx just good old stomach acid!
Gastric acid is, together with several enzymes and the intrinsic factor, one of the main secretions of the stomach. Chemically it is an acid solution consisting mainly of hydrochloric acid, but also containing small quantities of potassium chloride (KCl) and sodium chloride (NaCl).
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
luvs2ride
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posted
Hi Ya, Truth!
I wasn't totally vegan, but still eating a mostly alkaline diet and supplementing enzymes, L-glut for the gut already. Had been doing that for almost a year, so I probably already had the correct balance in my gut.
My doctor is not the one who put me on the Quantum Betaine HCL and Activator. I started seeing my husband's D.O. because he was local and he kept telling my husband he has good results treating R.A.
His osteopathic treatments really do seem to help. I am always painfree for 4 or 5 days after seeing him. He is also helping me detox by using Medi-Body Packs. He muscle test me at each visit to determine where the metals seem to be hanging out, then I spend the next two weeks applying the mud to those areas. It sounds silly but I am really seeing improvement in my pain.
Amazingly, he found Heavy Metals in my intestines. He would tap on the spot about 8 times, I assume to break it loose? The rest of that day, I had a strong ache in that area. I applied the first pack the next day and pain went away.
Pretty cool stuff! I strongly support everyone healing their gut as part of their efforts to get well.
Luvs
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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klutzo
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When I first got GERD, I added lemon juice to my water and digestive enzymes. That helped a lot, and I no longer had GERD after awhile, but then I added just one capsule of HCl and it BURNED so bad it doubled me over. I could not tolerate it at all.
I hope it works for you, but please be careful and start slowly. Good luck.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Bugg
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Hello Everyone--
You have all asked for an update/more info regarding this HCL protocol. I have done some more research. I called Dr. C's office in Missouri and learned that the physician who spoke about the HCL protocol last fall was Dr. Robert Marshall(I know we're not supposed to post doctors names but I think I can post the aformentioned physician's name as he is representing himself as the manufacture of the product/not a treating lyme doc)Anyway, I "Googled" Dr. Marshall's name and learned that he is invested in the company and is a spokesperson for the company which manufactures Quantum HCL. I called the manufacturer and spoke with an assistant of Dr. Marshall's. I asked him all about the protocol and whether this protocol could really "cure" lyme disease. He was very familiar with the protocol and lyme patients. He was very nice on the phone but somewhat "guarded" with his responses. He said while the HCL protocol cannot "cure" lyme disease it can eradicate the borrelia burgdorferi in just a couple of weeks as it is able to penetrate the protean wall. (what's the difference other than semantics???) He said this works where abx and HBOT have failed. He said the protocol (the # of pills to take) is based on the person's age and body weight. He said you also need other supplements to support the kidneys/adrenals at the same time. In other words, he said it won't hurt you/can only help you to go through the HCL protocol but to get maximum benefit you should be supporting all systems (i.e. have other supplements from Quantum). He said the HCL is a very intense detoxifier. When a lyme patient takes it, he will experience more pain/aching in the body due to the power of the detox process. It might also cause an increase in fatigue. He said if you can get through this, then you should see improvement. He said that Dr. Marshall doesn't have any published studies on the protocol. He said that he has trained practitioners around the country who perform "QRA" testing to determine all of the supplements a person needs in conjunction with the HCL protocol. In fact, he gave me the name and number of a practitioner in my state. I then called this practitioner and gave her the full background for my call and started asking questions about the testing/fees/results...She was incredibly rude and very vague with her response..In fact, in the middle of my questions she interrupted me and told me she "didn't have time for me" and wasn't just going to sit there and "do my research for me." What a bizarre and unprofessional response! Anyway, I obviously won't be going to see her.
Here, in a nutshell is what I think....I think I will at least give this protocol another week or two. It can't hurt, right??....However, I am very skeptical of something when the manufacturer won't give you the full protocol/instructions on something. I'm even more skeptical when you call a "representative practitioner" and she is incredibly evasive and rude.
I'm trying to work-up to the 15 pills a day after each meal along with the activator. Right now, I can only handle about 14 pills total each day as it creates a burning in my stomach. According to the manufacturer you can take a digestive enzyme (something else they manufacture) which will soothe the burning.
Anyway, I wish I had more "clear-cut" data for you guys but, as with all things lyme, it's a muddied response.
Hang in there everyone--
A
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
A big thank you !! If this was used historically with bacteria and had some success , it is not totally out to lunch .
Personally , I would not push the dosage to make myself miserable ! I would even do half the dose for a week and see if I notice anything different . If it is doing anything positive , I think you will notice something. If you take too much , you will hurt and want to stop . Just a thought .
Boy , if this idea has validity it could be a blockbuster if some person could coat the acid so it gets through the guts and into the blood stream without upsetting the stomach .
troutscout
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posted
A little Devil's advocate here...
I wouldn't suspect at anytime someone's motive just because they are guarded...especially when speaking about treatment for Lyme.
Why? Come on...you know the FDA and CDC is just drooling to get their hands on anybody that says cure when they are speaking of a supplement.
Now...the rudeness of the other Doctor...well...she may have been rude...but, she does require payment for her opinion...just like any other practicing Physician.
I am a patient of Doctor C's also and talked with him last Wednesday....about this protocol.
At this time he is guarded...but open and still has yet to write his opinion of it.
So...with time we can only tell.
I always aplly the 33/33/33 rule.
33% usually see dramatic results 33% usually see some result 33% usually see minimal to nothing in results 1% take a DIVE
Trout
-------------------- Now is the time in your life to find the "tiger" within. Let the claws be bared, and Lyme BEWARE!!! www.iowalymedisease.com [/URL] Posts: 5262 | From North East Iowa | Registered: Sep 2002
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Bugg
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Troutscout--
Thanks so much for your terrific points. You're right...I understand the reticence of the manufacturer to share information....As for the local rep, I was only asking her basic questions so I could determine what I/others need to do in order to see her...I've been involved in healthcare too long to know a red flag when I see one...this woman was not compassionate and not someone I would recommend to anyone (she's in Tennessee and her last name starts with La)...If you can't answer basic inquiries without being incredibly rude to someone, then that's not a caregiver I want to see...
Please keep your terrific posts coming..thanks so much for all of your efforts at lyme education...
A
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Hubby also sees Dr C. I ordered a couple of bottles of the supplements and have been waiting until hubby stabilizes some on his babs meds before trying this.
Hubby has taken other products from this company before -- Premier Research Lab manufactures the Quantum products. I think that you would need to try this specific brand because of the ingredients in the HCL activator -- in fact I think those ingredients could be a major factor in whether this protocol works.
Instructions are to take 15 Quantum Betaine HCL capsules 3 times a day = 45 total. The bottle says each capsule is 650mg of Betaine Hydrochloric Acid derived from beet source.
Instructions for the 2nd product -- Quantum HCL Activator -- take 3 capsules 3 times a day. This is labeled as " A natural potassium complex which also provides remethylation support."
Each capsule of Quantum HCL Activaor contains 500mg of a proprietary blend of:
Will let you all know when hubby finally tries this.
Bea Seibert
Hubby has taken between 3 and 6 capsules of other Betaine products before, but I am concerned about him taking such high doses.
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Truthfinder
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I'm very open to hearing more about this protocol. If there's any merit to it, we will be hearing more, I suspect.
Of course, anyone who has ever had excess stomach acid problems or GERD or other related issues should be very wary of this protocol. That's a lot of HCL to take at once. I can only assume that the "activator" is perhaps designed to minimize the stomach acidity factor?
Thanks to all who have posted about this.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Bugg
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posted
I've received a number of e-mails about the HCL protocol which I've recently started and I wanted to "report" regarding the status. I've been able to work my way up to 30 of the Quantum Betaine HCL pills a day along with 2 of the Activator pills (the target total for my age and body weight is 45 HCL pills....15 HCL after each meal along with 1 of the Quantum HCL Activator pills after each meal.)
What's been my experience, thus far, after almost one week? When I first started taking the pills, they greatly increased the pain, especially in my legs, and increased my fatigue. After about 3 days I was no longer experiencing the pain and my fatigue began to diminish. In fact, I really don't have any aching in my joints now, just stiffness. Yesterday I had some of the best energy I've had in awhile and I seemed more mentally alert. As far as I can tell, this just seems to be a great detoxifier. I have no idea whether taking this in high doses actually eradicates the disease...I'm still on that path...I have to stop the protocol for a day until I receive the "Quantum Stomach Complex" in the mail. I was experiencing a slight pain in my esophogus and so I called the manufacturer. They told me to split open one of the Quantum Stomach Complex pills in hot water and drink it as a tea. This should help soothe your digestive tract. You then eat your meal and take the HCL pills. They have assured me that the levels of HCL I'm taking will not "burn the lining of my stomach."...As soon as I receive the Stomach Complex in a day or two, I'm going to re-start the protocol and continue with at least 30-35 HCL a day, along with the Activator, along with the Stomach Complex, and of course probiotics in the a.m....
Hope this info helps....
A
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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You might want to reread your handout from Dr C. The handout he gave hubby said to take 3 of the activator capsules 3 times daily -- total of 9 activator pills daily. Add that to 15 Betaine capsules 3 times daily or 45 Betaine capsules daily equals a total of 54 (45 + 9) pills daily at full dose.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I remember years ago Dr. Cheney was big on working with HCL on a lower doseage. I found an old posting on it.
Dr. Paul Cheney on Betaine for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia Patients
by Carol Sieverling ImmuneSupport.com
11-07-2001
Editor's Note: The following information is based on tapes of Carol Sieverling's October 2000 visit with Dr. Cheney. He gave her permission to share this information, but has not reviewed or edited it.
When Dr. Cheney reviewed the results of my CDSA (Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis) from Great Smokies Laboratories (www.gsdl.com), he noted indications of "proteolytic problems" - trouble digesting proteins. First, he confirmed I was taking digestive enzymes, which he believes are essential for all CFIDS patients.
Dr. Cheney then suggested the supplement betaine. Most CFIDS patients don't have enough stomach acid, and betaine HCL (hydrochloric acid) is stomach acid.
Stomach acid is a paradoxical substance: too little can actually make you think you have too much. Many people think they have acid reflux or GERD, and they take Prilosec or other antacids to reduce the amount of stomach acid. In actuality, they may not have enough acid in their stomach to trigger the opening of a valve at its base. When food begins to fill the stomach, acid is released to assist with digestion. When enough acid is detected, the valve opens, releasing the food into the small intestine. If there isn't enough acid, the valve doesn't open. The food, mixed with what little acid is present, is forced back up the esophagus, creating a burning sensation. Paradoxically, the answer to the burning sensation is more acid, not less. Antacids can create a vicious cycle in these cases.
Dr. Cheney said stomach acid does at least four important things: (1) It creates an acid trap to kill bacteria in food. A lack of stomach acid allows bacterial overgrowths to develop, particularly in the small intestine. A UCLA study of 52 FM/CFS patients found bacterial overgrowths in 90% of the patients. Antibiotics were given to wipe out all bacteria (good and bad). Pain, fatigue, and cognition improved. Dr. Cheney strongly recommends betaine supplementation instead of antibiotics.
(2) According to Dr. Cheney, betaine "clips proteins," part of the process of digesting proteins. The enzymes (natural or supplemented) that break down protein need acid in order to work. You may take lots of enzymes, but if you don't have enough acid, they won't be effective. Plant-based digestive enzymes are the exception. They don't need acid, though we still need the acid for all the other reasons listed here.
(3) Betaine helps extract minerals from food. Stomach acid is required for the body to absorb minerals. Without enough stomach acid, mineral depletion results.
(4) When the "acid chyme" (partially digested food mixed with acid) is released from the stomach, it enters the duodenum (first part of the small intestine). If enough acid is present, the pancreas will release pancreatic enzymes, and the liver will release bile. These are essential for good digestion and absorption. Without enough acid, these enzymes are not released, compromising digestion and absorption.
Most CFS/FM patients need to be taking supplemental betaine. Regarding dosage, take as much as you can tolerate. Most patients take one or two caps per meal. A few can tolerate only 1/2 cap. A few take much more - up to 7 caps a meal. As with so many things, the dose is very individualized. If you take too little, you'll have that paradoxical burning sensation from the food/acid mixture coming back up the esophagus, because there isn't enough acid to trigger the release of food into the small intestine. If you take more, but still not quite enough, the food/acid mixture will still come back up the esophagus. However, now it will burn even worse because it has more acid in it - just not enough to open the valve at the bottom of the stomach. If you take too much, you will experience "dumping", as Dr. Cheney calls it - usually diarrhea or a general "yucky" feeling.
One patient began taking betaine a couple of months ago and has finally escaped from the horrible pain and discomfort after meals that has plagued her for the past five years. Try taking betaine to improve your digestion, absorption, and kill off bacterial overgrowths. [As with any new treatment, discuss betaine supplementation with your physician first.]
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canefan17
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bump
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