LymeNet Home LymeNet Home Page LymeNet Flash Discussion LymeNet Support Group Database LymeNet Literature Library LymeNet Legal Resources LymeNet Medical & Scientific Abstract Database LymeNet Newsletter Home Page LymeNet Recommended Books LymeNet Tick Pictures Search The LymeNet Site LymeNet Links LymeNet Frequently Asked Questions About The Lyme Disease Network LymeNet Menu

LymeNet on Facebook

LymeNet on Twitter




The Lyme Disease Network receives a commission from Amazon.com for each purchase originating from this site.

When purchasing from Amazon.com, please
click here first.

Thank you.

LymeNet Flash Discussion
Dedicated to the Bachmann Family

LymeNet needs your help:
LymeNet 2020 fund drive


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations.

LymeNet Flash Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Lyme Disease and Rheumatoid Arthritis

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: Lyme Disease and Rheumatoid Arthritis
lymekw
Member
Member # 25262

Icon 1 posted      Profile for lymekw     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi,

I was just diagnosed last week with late stage lyme disease, but I also had a low concentration of anti-CCP antibodies which are markers for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Are these markers just showing up because i have not yet been treated for my lymes? Does lymes cause Rheumatoid arthritis? Has anyone else had this?

Thanks,

KW

Posts: 10 | From Wisconsin | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lymekw
Member
Member # 25262

Icon 1 posted      Profile for lymekw     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Also I just want to add that my doctor stated that the bands that I had present were 18, 28, 39, 41, 66, and 93. However, my acute result was negative showing only band 23 present. He then stated in a letter to me that the problem may not be Lymes disease, but wanted to treat me before going forward with other interventions (to treat the Rheumatoid Arthritis for which they found markers for).
Posts: 10 | From Wisconsin | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
massman
Unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I trained 5 years ago with a very sharp (IMO) nurse practitioner from PA.

She stated that there are 4 stages of lyme and that RA is or is close to late stage lyme.

There may be other threads + posts here adressing RA you can find by searching.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183

Icon 1 posted      Profile for TF     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I want to discuss your doctor's statement that your "acute result was negative showing only band 23 present."

Also, your doc says your problem may not be lyme disease.

I hope you will print out the explanation of the Western Blot test that is here:

http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/42077

It would be good for you to study it and to give it to your doctor also so that he sees the thinking regarding how to interpret these test results from a few famous lyme doctors who have been treating lyme disease patients (most on a full-time basis) for years.

Here is a section of the explanation. It talks about the IgG section of the test and the IgM section. When your doctor talks about your "acute results" he is most likely talking about the IgM test results since IgM antibodies are the first to be formed in response to infection.

Here is the quote for you:

"Both IgG and IgM Western blots should be done for borreliosis.

With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.

Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.

But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies.

Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result.

Response to antibiotics is the same if either is positive, or both.

Some antibodies against the borrelia are given more significance if they are IgG versus IgM, or vice versa.

Since this is a chronic persistent infection, this does not make a lot of sense to me. A newly formed Borrelia burgdorferi should have the same antigen parts as the previous bacteria that produced it.

But anyway, from my clinical experience, these borrelia associated bands usually predict a clinical change in symptoms with antibiotics, regardless of whether they are IgG or IgM."

Here is another good quote for you:

"In my clinical experience, if a patient has symptoms suspicious for borreliosis, and has one or more of the following bands, there is a very high probability the patient has borreliosis.

These bands are 18, 22, 23-25, 28, 30, 31, 34, 37, 39, 41, 83, and 93.

This is true regardless of whether it is IgG or IgM. But again, there is no universal agreement on the significance of these bands. Betina Wilska, M.D. from Germany is one of the world's experts on outer surface protein A (31 kDa).

At the international borreliosis conference in Vancouver, British Columbia, I asked her personally about the 30 kDa band. She told me it was the same as the 31 kDa band (osp A).

When you have the opportunity to talk to borreliosis experts, this helps in assigning significance to findings, on an imperfect test.

As a medical doctor, I am stating all of this with no axe to grind, no professorship to protect, and no preset opinions. Patients, personal research, and conferences have helped me interpret the borreliosis medical literature in regard to testing."

So, you have tested positive for 5 of the bands that Dr. C believes are very important lyme disease indicators. I think you should not doubt your lyme disease diagnosis and you should get to a doctor who has treated thousands of lyme disease cases without delay.

You can check out the support groups in your area (see Support Groups on left side of page) to get names of good doctors, and you can post in Seeking a Doctor section of LymeNet.

Try to find a doctor who has gotten rid of this disease for at least 3 people. Lots of doctors treat lyme disease, but the question is, have they gotten rid of it for anybody. Many, many people are treated for lyme by regular doctors only to have their lyme disease symptoms resurface later. Don't want that to happen to you.

I expect that with GOOD lyme treatment by an expert, your arthritis symptoms will go away. However, even if they don't, I would still treat the lyme disease before treating the rheumatoid arthritis.

Have you looked at The Road Back Foundation website? This group is advocating for the use of antibiotics to treat RA. They have lots of evidence that this cures RA where the more standard treatment of RA does not offer a cure, just symptomatic relief.

I hope this leads you to do a lot of research into these 2 diseases.

To get your education on lyme disease, its complexities, and what good lyme treatment looks like, I recommend you read and study the Dr. Joseph Burrascano lyme treatment guidelines found here:

http://www.ilads.org/lyme_disease/B_guidelines_12_17_08.pdf

It is not an easy read because it was written to doctors, but it will teach you what you need to know about lyme disease and the coinfections that go along with it.

We are here to help you in any way we can. Wish you the best. Get all the wisdom you can.

Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
dyna3495
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 24126

Icon 1 posted      Profile for dyna3495     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have severe RA, with flares occuring anytime I attempted to do anything requiring physical effort. Since I have been treating the lyme disease aggresively,I have both, the RA flares have stopped. The treatment for parasites gave the most remarkable and immediate results. The remaining symptoms are tinnitis,low body temp and hand pain that goes away after about an hour after waking up. You must treat for bacteria AND protoza infections to get relief. Good luck and God Bless
Posts: 160 | From Mid-east USA | Registered: Jan 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lymetoo
Moderator
Member # 743

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Lymetoo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TF said .. (quoting Dr C of the WB explanation..)

"With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.

Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.

But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies."

THIS IS CORRECT!!!!

Your dr is mixed up .. because Lyme is a very different type of infection.

Treat the Lyme and the other tests will likely go back to normal.

--------------------
--Lymetutu--
Opinions, not medical advice!

Posts: 95667 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
lr26
Member
Member # 7437

Icon 1 posted      Profile for lr26     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
posted 04-08-2010 07:38 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

I have never had a positive test. I was clinicaly diagnossed(sp)with lyme.

I have lyme induced RA. It started in 1997. I couldn't find a Dr to treat lyme till 2005 when I found lymenet. I am still on abx. Bixion, augmetin, flagel and recently added LDN(low dose naltexone) and serracor-NK.

I am almost pain free for the first time in 2 years. I started LDN and the serracor-NK at the same time, so I don't know which is helping the most. But I started them 1 1/2 mo. ago and I am just getting better and better. I FEEL ALIVE AGAIN.

I have not posted much here, I was waiting till I could post something positive. To help others find hope, in this terrible disease.

Thank you lymenet and my LLMD!!

lr26
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posts: 94 | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
LymeXtu
LymeNet Contributor
Member # 24590

Icon 1 posted      Profile for LymeXtu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
lymekw - I was told by a well respected LLMD that IgM band 23 can be indicative of chronic lyme disease.
Posts: 448 | From minnesota | Registered: Feb 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | LymeNet home page | Privacy Statement

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3


The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:

The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey
907 Pebble Creek Court, Pennington, NJ 08534 USA


| Flash Discussion | Support Groups | On-Line Library
Legal Resources | Medical Abstracts | Newsletter | Books
Pictures | Site Search | Links | Help/Questions
About LymeNet | Contact Us

© 1993-2020 The Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey, Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Use of the LymeNet Site is subject to Terms and Conditions.