posted
My Igenex results showed me positive for Babesia duncani (both IGG and IGM) and Bartonella henselae (IGG). Interestingly my Lyme western blots were inconclusive. I had positive 41 kDa and indeterminate 31, 34, and 39. It looks like I may have had a problem with Lyme but my current biggest issues, according to my doc, are Babesia and Bartonella, and I agree.
I am on Bactrim DS (2x/day) for Bartonella and Mepron (1 tsp 2x/day) and Zithromax (250mg 1x/day) for the Babesia. I was on Bactrim before because my doc diagnosed Bartonella previously but the Babesia diagnosis is new so I just started the Mepron and Zithromax six days ago. I ordered some artemisinin as per Dr. B's, and many of your, instructions.
I think my doc is great, but I just wanted to get some feedback from you well-educated Lymies who have had experience with Babesia and Bartonella. My tests seem to show that Babesia is the main problem. Also, my symptoms match Babesiosis very well (tons of sweating, rapid heart rate, rapidly changing internal heat, chills, shakes, migraines, muscle pain etc.). Is this regimen fairly common for Babesia and Bartonella?
Also, I have been sweating almost constantly since Monday. Yesterday I felt extremely depressed for most of the day and had little energy. Today I have started to have some chest pain, which makes sense because my prior rapid heart rate was probably a sign of endocarditis from Babesia. I have read that these are fairly common effects of killing Babesia. What do you think?
In terms of how long I have had the infection I read that duncani, which I tested positive for and not for microti, is more prevalent on the west coast. I lived in Washington state from 1991-95 so I may have been infected since then. For the last four years I have had acute symptoms of Babesiosis. Thanks for your input! Any recommendations that you have for other non-abx treatment besides the artemisinin would also be appreciated.
-------------------- Bart and Babesia seropositive Current tx: Rifampin, Biaxin, Bactrim DS, Artemisinin, Resveratrol (japanese knotweed), Red Root, Boneset Posts: 168 | From PA | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
I am on the same...bactrim, zith, mepron, artemisin and glutathione....for bart and babs...i also have duncani and have not been on the west coast, (I am on the east coast.)..so it is not specific for that area although I believe more common......dont have any recs as still working all this out myself.....just wish you luck on this journey........
-------------------- Oct 09 Positive CDC Western Blot Jan 10 Positive Babesia Duncani Jan 10 Cd57 28 Mar 10 EBV, IgM, IgG HHV-6 IgG Posts: 739 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2009
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posted
Thanks Florence. Yes, I just read that duncani is actually prevalent throughout the country now. I don't remember any tick bites when I lived in Washington state. I had quite a few when I lived in TN so I probably picked it up there.
Good luck to you as well.
-------------------- Bart and Babesia seropositive Current tx: Rifampin, Biaxin, Bactrim DS, Artemisinin, Resveratrol (japanese knotweed), Red Root, Boneset Posts: 168 | From PA | Registered: Feb 2010
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posted
I have all 3, and also had erlichiosis and who knows how many other varieties of bugs on top of that. (I'm cong, and my Mom has had lyme since she lived in Argentina in the 60s, so really... no tellin' what all we've got! lol)
My doc has me on babs and bart tx right now. I take 1tsp of Mepron 2x/day, 250mg zith 2x/day, and artemisia 500mg a day. Instead of the Bactrim for the bart, though, I am on Cipro 500mg 2x/day.
I've had lots of heart symtpoms for years since both babs and bart can mess w/ the heart. Since I started this combo, the heart stuff has been basically the same as before.
Twice, however, I've had a 'new' heart symptom... or at least I think it's my heart. I think my BP has spiked pretty high for a short period of time (like 5-10min) twice. Both times around 30min after taking my abx.
My LLMD told me that zith is also a fairly decent cyst-killer for lyme, so I guess that means we are still treating the lyme, too. At least a little.
SmurfyMom
Posts: 155 | From Texas | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
I am on zith,flagyl pulse,bactrim ds, artemisinin pulse, I am not on mepron. I have BLO (bacteremia resolved on repeat microscopy but not cured in tissue yet). Saw Babesia inside RBC on second micro. I cannot afford Mepron, I've noticed many go from mepron to malarone to Art. Art is cheaper so I'm going with that, started last weekend 3 days on 4 days off. My symptoms were very little sweating but do have chill especially when needing to urinate, jaw chattering, forehead moist at 2 AM, feel body swaying when standing, dry cough, air hunger etc. I think I am already seeing some positive benefit. I think there is some synergy of all the above meds including the flagyl against the Babesia (as well as Bart/Borrelia). I realize though it will take another 4 months for full symptom relief then another 3-4 months of insurance treatment to avoid relapse hopefully.
Wishing you success,
Beachinit.
-------------------- Ideas not advice. Posts: 448 | From Downeast Maine | Registered: Jul 2009
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BoxerMom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25251
posted
I think you are on a good program. The sweating, depression, exhaustion, chills/fever and air hunger are classic Babesia herx symptoms.
Start with a low dose of Artemisinin. You're herxing quite a bit. Don't overdo it. And always pulse Art. Either 4 days on, 3 off, or 1 week on, 1 off.
Enula from Nutramedix is another great Babesia herb.
When my herxing calmed down, my doc actually increased my Mepron to 2 tsp 2x/day. I've also taken Malarone and Mepron together. She was determined to kill this off!
I treated for 1 year, and have no more Babesia symptoms. Mine was B.microti.
posted
My tick bite was in CT, likely B.microti, saw maltese cross sign in my RBC, taking art et al (post above) I have seen folks do well on artemisinin 100mg twice daily, I am now taking 100mg three times daily. Dr. K says take the full antimalarial dose, I think he called for 400 mg three times/day. The thing is malaria gets killed in 3 days, its gone. But with Babesia we have to keep repeating for several months to get rid of it so I question the wisdom of that higher dose. Anybody with experience on the higher dose of Art?
Beachinit.
-------------------- Ideas not advice. Posts: 448 | From Downeast Maine | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
@SmurfyMom I have definitely had the same experience with high blood pressure. Usually my blood pressure is around 120/80 but I have had doctor's visits where it was in the 150/95 or so range. I think I've had higher than that as well. I've also had experiences with my veins on my arms bulging out and being clearly visible through my skin. I don't know if that has anything to do with blood pressure. The last few days my heart has been somewhat irregular, sometimes I can hear it pounding quite loudly.
It's good to hear that Zithro also hits Lyme. Although my clearly positive tests were Babesia and Bartonella I've had these infections for a very long time, and I wonder if I still have Lyme but over time it suppressed my antibodies. Either way, I'm dealing with my main two issues right now. Once I take care of the Babs and Bart if I still have issues my doc and I can take another look at Lyme.
@Beachinit I agree that, intuitively, length of treatment with art is probably more important than a high dose with Babesia rather than malaria. Malaria is a more active infection that can be resolved quickly. Babesia is a less active, lower grade infection. At least that is my experience because I've had it for at least a decade. Thus, it seems to me that an extended pulsed regimen is probably better. Hopefully people with different dosages weigh in.
@BoxerMom Thanks for the encouragement! I'm glad to hear that you think it's a good program, especially since you have dealt with your Babesia successfully. I took just 100mg of artemisinin today, and I'm going to see how I respond. I'm going to take it slow. I think I've read that I should work up to 200-300 mg 2x/day? Let me know what you worked up to.
Congratulations on clearing up your Babesia! I'm going to do whatever it takes to clear this up. I suffered with this for so long without having the willpower to fully pursue a solution. I guess you could say I hit bottom, and since then I have been like a bat out of hell, dealing with ducks, and then finally getting a LLMD that I trust. Sometimes things have to get really bad for someone to change their attitude.
-------------------- Bart and Babesia seropositive Current tx: Rifampin, Biaxin, Bactrim DS, Artemisinin, Resveratrol (japanese knotweed), Red Root, Boneset Posts: 168 | From PA | Registered: Feb 2010
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BoxerMom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25251
posted
So true, so true. Many hit "Lyme bottom" before taking matters into their own hands. Congratulations on that important step.
Both Mepron and Artemisinin can raise liver enzymes. And according to Dr. S, Art induces an enzyme system in the liver that speeds its own removal from the bloodstream. By day 5 of treatment, blood levels are 1/5 of what they were on day 1. That is the reason for pulsing, 4 days on, 3 off. Also easier on the liver.
If you are getting liver enzymes tested every 1-2 months, try for the higher dose. Again, watch your herxing. Don't overdo it. I tend to introduce the herbs when my herxing from antibiotics starts to drop off. I never took more than 200 mg, 2x/day.
posted
Thanks, that's what I'll work up to. I only took one pill of artemisinin today and already feel a herx coming. My head is starting to pressurize, if that makes sense. I'm also starting to get some confusion. Fun. Good thing I started with just one. Your explanation of pulsing makes good sense.
I'll ask my doc about getting a liver panel next time I see him. My insurance will probably cover it.
-------------------- Bart and Babesia seropositive Current tx: Rifampin, Biaxin, Bactrim DS, Artemisinin, Resveratrol (japanese knotweed), Red Root, Boneset Posts: 168 | From PA | Registered: Feb 2010
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BoxerMom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25251
posted
Art crosses the blood-brain barrier, with high penetration into the CNS. Major brain herxes!
My insurance has always covered basic labs like liver panels.
posted
That makes sense, but I thought that Babesia mostly traveled around in our blood. Does it cross the blood-brain barrier?
This may be small potatoes, but when do you take your supplements? I've been taking my basic supplements, like multivitamin, fish oil, b-complex, potassium/magnesium, etc. right before I eat and take my antibiotics right after I eat. I take a probiotic a couple hours after taking my abx. I'm taking artemisinin on an empty stomach, between meals. Is this basically what you guys do? Does it matter whether you take supplements right before you eat or after?
-------------------- Bart and Babesia seropositive Current tx: Rifampin, Biaxin, Bactrim DS, Artemisinin, Resveratrol (japanese knotweed), Red Root, Boneset Posts: 168 | From PA | Registered: Feb 2010
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BoxerMom
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posted
Hmmm...good point about the Babesia. My understanding is that once the selectively permeable capillaries that make up the BBB is compromised (by Lyme and cos and maybe heavy metals), lots of pathogens that should not enter the brain can cross. Some have affinity for nervous tissue, anyway (Lyme, HHV6).
Malaria can cross and create neuro symptoms. I thought the same was true for Babesia, so it could remain in the bloodstream, but still enter the brain. I know it causes my meningeal swelling, and lots of neuro symptoms. That would indicate it enters the CNS, but does that mean blood vessels, cerebrospinal fluid, or actual nerve cells? Will have to do further research.
I took abx and supplements with my meals, but then my LLND became concerned about supplements decreasing absorption and function of antibiotics (especially those dreaded antioxidants), so she had everyone take their supps with probiotics, 2 hours after abx. That really messed me up, because I couldn't digest my supps without a nice bit of food in my stomach.
Now I split them up. Antimicrobial herbs and oils with food and abx. Antioxidants (like B and C) with probiotics. Multi and minerals with lunch, when I don't take abx. You have to take minerals several hours away from abx, especially away from the tetracyclines, as they interfere with absorption. If I need minerals 2x/day, I take the second dose at bedtime with a snack.
There is no small potatoes in Lyme treatment. All questions are good questions.
posted
Right, I've certainly had many neuro symptoms with Babesia and Bartonella. I don't know if that means that those things are in brain tissue but somehow the CNS is affected. Maybe someone better knows how that works.
That sounds like a good idea about moving the antioxidants and multi and minerals away from abx. I'm just concerned that if I move around my supplements to in between meals I'll just forget to take them which is even worse. It's hard enough for me to remember to take my probiotic a couple hours after abx. I'll ask my doc what he recommends. As always, thanks for the pointers.
-------------------- Bart and Babesia seropositive Current tx: Rifampin, Biaxin, Bactrim DS, Artemisinin, Resveratrol (japanese knotweed), Red Root, Boneset Posts: 168 | From PA | Registered: Feb 2010
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BoxerMom
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Member # 25251
posted
You're welcome. I agree about the supplement protocol - the more complicated it gets, the less compliance! Definitely good to check with your doc.
Amanda
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14107
posted
A few of us have had one hell of a time getting rid of Babs.
I did high doses of mepron zith, art for 26 months, and still problems. Tried plaquneil, malarone, some other stuff. Am trying Larium at the moment.
Groovy2 has LOTS of experience and knowledge about Babs, the duncani is harder to get rid of. He's always been helpful when I had questions. Private message him if you want more good info
So, Mepron/zith art are very good for most, but if you find after a year you still have problems, you may need to try something else
-------------------- "few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Thanks Amanda. Yea, I've heard that the duncani is harder to get rid of. I'm glad to know that I'm on the standard protocol for now. I just started with this regimen so I'm hopeful that it will work. I trust my doc so if he feels that it is failing I'm sure that he will change things up. That is many months down the road though.
-------------------- Bart and Babesia seropositive Current tx: Rifampin, Biaxin, Bactrim DS, Artemisinin, Resveratrol (japanese knotweed), Red Root, Boneset Posts: 168 | From PA | Registered: Feb 2010
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
You guys also may want to look into iron supplementation. Artemesia targets iron which is what babesia uses in some way (please forgive me - I'm not a scientist).
Boosting iron helps the artemesia target the pathogen & it blows it up. This is why you need to take extra anti oxidants. It creates free radicals when it bursts the babesia.
If you have low iron levels - the artemesia may not be as effective. Some supplements inhibit iron absorption. So, you have to check into it. I'm still researching all of this.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
PS - I don't know why more people aren't using noni. I've read a study that it is effective against babesia.
Also (I forgot) - NAC is protective of the liver. I've been taking that almost every day. There are other things that will protect the liver, as well...
I believe resveratrol (Japanese Knotweed) is good but I'm not certain. I would take resveratrol if I was not ill! It's really amazing stuff from what I've read.
I would take herbs away from food to increase potency - unless they give you a stomach ache or you have some specific reason to take them with food.
It's very tricky with the supplements & binders. I was taking abx a while ago & I don't remember if my doctor ever told me that some minerals can interfere with absorption... I was just reading it the other day.
Mepron is soooo expensive - I wouldn't want to take a mineral or supplement that interfered with it's absorption.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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