"I still have Mt.Everest to climb, but I have traveled across the world and arrived at the mountain". Posts: 633 | From baltimore | Registered: Mar 2010
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janice victorov
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From my personal experience, it means you have an active infection.
-------------------- jkv44 Posts: 1247 | From virginia | Registered: Oct 2009
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Dr. S found that C3a and C4a can be used to detect cases of Lyme. I also believe this is something Dr. Sc uses as well. They rise quickly and stay elevated. C4a appears with acute Lyme disease, and with chronicity will stay elevated as long as there are living organisms of borreila, this type of testing may become a more accepted indicator for diagnosing the presence of Lyme disease. C4a will rise 12 hours after a tick bite in those with Lyme but not in those without Lyme.
How do we use C4a in chronic Lyme?
In all people with Lyme and treated with antibiotics that were still ill, C4a was still testing sky high. Some of our docs are using this to indicate or confirm the ongoing presence of Lyme spirochetes. What is interesting about this type of testing, it is not fraught with the politics of lyme testing we are currently seeing.
The C3a, C4a, and C5a are identifiable results, tangible, and undeniable results of ongoing infection. Are you familar with the HLA genotypes? There are some of these genotypes, in which biotoxins figure prominently in disease, and within these genotypes, they are finding those with non-responsive, chronic lyme to fit into some of these genotypes.
Elevated levels of C3a and C4a are rarely seen in controls or meaning those without Lyme Disease. C3a and C4a are important new markers for diagnosis of hyperacute and ongoing Lyme disease.
With acute Lyme, C4a will rise rapidly to about 6000. With chronic Lyme, it will be about 10,000. Antibiotic treatment often creates a further rise to 11,000. Dr.S treated with Actos and CSM treatment, and was able to lower the average down to 3,800. Control levels are around 2600. When re-exposed to a biotoxin or further bouts of Lyme, the average jumps as high as 18,000!!
Dr. S and Sc shares Dr. S's ``Biotoxin Pathway'' which shows the cascade of events that starts a biotoxin illness in those who are HLA-susceptible, it leads to increased leptin, increased cytokines, increased MMP-9 (MMP-9 is a global measure of cytokine activity in the body), reduced VEGF, and reduced MSH (alpha-melanocyte stimulating hormone). Reduced MSH leads to reduced ADH (antidiuretic hormone), reduced sex hormones, changes in cortisol and ACTH (adrenocorticotropic hormone), prolonged illness, resistant staphylococci infections, gastrointestinal problems, chronic pain, and sleep disturbances. All of these are downstream effects of a biotoxin in an HLA-susceptible individual.
Lyme disease often unveils HLA susceptibility. What began the illness years ago becomes less important. It does not matter how the process started, but how the process ends.
Some Helpful Terminology:
C3a: A by-product of the activation of the third component of the complement immune system. C3a can continue to activate C3 when the alternative pathway of complement is activated. This creates a high risk for Chronic Fatque and persistent symptoms in biotoxin patients.
C4a: Is an important protein playing a major role in the human defense mechanism to infectious disease and inflammatory processes.
Alternative Pathway of Complement Immune System: Is a series of proteins activated by antigen's only, without antibodies, particularly found to be important in illnesses caused by biotoxins in the HLA-susceptible genotypes.
Classical Pathway of Complement Immune System: Is a series of proteins activated by a combination of antigen and antibody joined to make an ``immune complex''. Classical pathways activation is commonly seen in diseases of autoimmunity, but is also highly important in eliminating infectious organisms.
Complement Immune System: It is the innate immune first responder composed of thirty differing proteins, receptors, andinhibitorss. I don't know what those thirty are as of yet. It is also the third most common protein found in the blood. Highly associated with immune responses in acute exposures where as chronic elevation of the alternative pathway increases C3a, a major factor found in chronic illness symptomologies.
Genetic Susceptability: Predetermined group of immune-response genes represented by HLA-DR. Particular toxin illnesses are highly linked to presence of particular genotypes. While the genes do not make the patient ill, exposure to toxins will result in illness. Essentially in those with the susceptible genotypes. The HLA link to lack of antibody formation is a bridge from the innate immune response and the acquired immune response immune system.
HLA-DR: These are groups of immune response genes that control the attachment of HLA to antigens in dendrite cells. The dendrite cells are antigen presenting cells that engulfs the antigen before processing it and presenting the antigen for antibody formation. This is tied into the inate immune response and the acquired immune response. Interestingly enough, you will find upon more research, that dendrite cells are also in our skin.
I think this is way more information than you may of wanted, but hope its helpful in some way.
Can I ask, what were your levels?
LaurieL
-------------------- �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.� Posts: 149 | From Kansas/Missouri | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Thanks so much for the info . It was so helpful. I asked the doctor's office to mail my report. I will message you when I know the specific numbers. I really appreciate all your help and support. Take care and feel good .
-------------------- gatorade girl
"I still have Mt.Everest to climb, but I have traveled across the world and arrived at the mountain". Posts: 633 | From baltimore | Registered: Mar 2010
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MariaA
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Hey , could someone tell me where you got that test done? I read another article about it in Public Health Alert or one of the other Lyme publications and the author was suggesting that it had to be done at Labcorp through National Jewish Health Laboratories (ie Labcorp draws the blood but can then send things to several places). When I called Labcorp some of the things in the article (like the codes it gave) didn't make sense to the operator.
I looked at the website and requisition forms for National Jewish and couldn't figure out exactly which test I needed of the many related ones.
Can anyone look this up for me from their own labwork?
Thank you.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
SForsgren
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posted
Elevated C4a I would agree may be related to infections, mold exposure, etc. Low C4a I don't believe would represent the same as was indicated by the second poster.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Quest does the C4a and sends out to National Jewish.
My C4a was high to begin with, added abx and it went higher, dropped down to the starting high, added more abx and it maxed out at 20,000 in November. Began to have improvement in weel being recently and now my C4a is normal for the first time.
Not sure what a low C4a means.
Posts: 819 | From East Coast | Registered: Apr 2009
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Complement deficiencies are linked with frequent infections and immune complex disease. Deficiencies have been identified in all of the complement factors except C9, including Factor D and properdin. Deficiencies have also been identified in the complement regulatory proteins C1INH, Factor I, Factor H, DAF, and HRF. In general, deficiencies in complement components result in increased bacterial infections,especially with Neisseria species, due to reduced opsonization and phagocytosis. Immune complex disease is caused by complement-mediated inflammation in response to persisting antigen-antibody complexes in the circulation and the tissues. Deficiencies in complement factors and in regulatory proteins result in similar symptoms. In the absence of regulatory proteins, complement proteins are depleted at accelerated rates.
Posts: 819 | From East Coast | Registered: Apr 2009
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lymebytes
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Means you don't have inflammation if it is normal and that is good.
MariaA
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Heya, I asked the author of that article (who's the co-author of a scientific paper about this issue) about where she recommends getting that test (she did a phone conference tonight and I happened to tune in right as she was talking about that test). She said that Labcorp now "does it incorrectly" through their own facility, and that one way to order it is through National Jewish Laboratories, just not through Labcorp.
Here's the requisition form link- I asked her about test codes and she said it's the top two tests in the right-hand column:
Please note: The Quest complement assays need to be sent to the Baltimore Lab ( aren't the same as other sites across the country). Is this the same as the National Jewish?
The recommednation by Dr. S is to send all complement samples, frozen in dry ice, overnight, next day delivery to:
Quest Diagnostics Incorporated 1901 Sulphur Spring Road Baltimore, Maryland, 21227
-------------------- �Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it�s the only thing that ever has.� Posts: 149 | From Kansas/Missouri | Registered: Aug 2008
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cantgiveupyet
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Thanks Kitty for that link
The C4 test is different than the C4a...correct?
I was told my C4 was low because the compliment C4a was activated...
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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BTW, I am in Baltimore area. My blood automatically goes to the Baltimore Quest and is sent to National Jewish in Denver.
Posts: 819 | From East Coast | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by lauirel: Please note: The Quest complement assays need to be sent to the Baltimore Lab ( aren't the same as other sites across the country). Is this the same as the National Jewish?
National Jewish is in Denver, CO.
Posts: 819 | From East Coast | Registered: Apr 2009
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