posted
This is probably old news for many of you, but I'm trying to learn about biofilm as my Fry Lab report says I have it in my blood along with the hemoplasma/hemobartanella or mycoplasma - whatever it may be. (I also tested positive (CDC and IGeneX) for Lyme and Babesiosis.)
"Focus: When you began to work at dissolving the biofilms, did you find the bugs?
Cohen: Oh yes! But I found something else that was just as fascinating, something nobody was thinking about. Think about what that biofilm might really be made of.
The biofilm matrix has a horizontal and a vertical weave. It's standard knowledge that biofilm bacteria sequester calcium, magnesium and iron to help build that matrix.
Minerals give the biofilm integrity--as if you're building a wall. You don't only want bricks, you want cement. To address this, first you use fibrinolytics to help dissolve the fibrin, then you use EDTA to chelate out the minerals.
And guess what? We started getting huge dumps of toxic metal. Now why is that? I think the answer points to something so huge, whether we're dealing with autism or lyme disease or multiple sclerosis or lupus or even cancer."
I'm wondering about the calcium, magnesium and iron sequestering that is mentioned and by taking these supplements, which I do, would that add to the making of more biofilm? Should I stop taking these supplements?
Don't mean to sound ignorant, just trying to learn! : )
Any comments would be appreciated.
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sparkle7
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posted
Interesting article...
We can always learn new things. Don't feel like you are ignorant or asking a "stupid" question. People here want to get well & help others when they can. Every day I learn something new.
I don't know about whether magnesium & other minerals are contra-indicated. Lyme & the co-infections & the biofilms are all very complex subject matters.
It's like peeling an onion. You have to treat things in stages. I'm sure some smart or experienced person will know the answer & post further info.
Just wanted you to know that your question is not dumb.
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Keebler
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- We still need to supplement magnesium so that the rest of our cells can get it. Our nerve cells will die without magnesium and magnesium deficiency can cause major problems, even seizures.
Lyme patients are typically very deficient in magnesium.
There are other ways to work against biofilm than depriving our bodies of essential nutrients. Biofilm can only take so much, anyway, and it's much more complex than just trying to starve the process.
============
This is included in Burrascano's Guidelines, but you may want to be able to refer to it separately, too:
Keebler - thanks for the link and comments. Didn't notice anything about biofilm in the guidelines.
I read two exact opposite views online last night from supposed doctor's. One said do not take the supplements; the other said to increase the doses of the supplements.
I have not been told that I have a mag deficiency, but I am taking Chelex to hopefully help with the biofilm.
You are probably right that there are better ways to fight the biofilm than withdrawling important nutrients from my diet though.
I will look at other alternatives or maybe do nothing and see if the CHelex makes a difference, but how I'll know for sure, I'm not sure! : )
Thanks! I appreciate the comments and advice!!
Have a great weekend to both of you!
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sparkle7
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posted
There are several herbs that people here have used for biofilms. There are also alot of new products that I have seen on the market, lately. I haven't tried them.
I did pass what looked like biofilms when I did an intestinal cleanse with Dr. Schulze's products. The intestinal cleanse #2 was particularly good.
It seems that there also the issue of fibrin making the blood sticky. I think these are separate things but for some reason - in my mind - they seem related. I think some of the same herbs & supplements can be used for both issues.
I started taking magnesium at a different time, away from all the other herbs & supplements I'm taking. The body does need these minerals - so, I don't think cutting them out is the best plan.
If you are fighting babesia - your blood needs adequate iron levels. Especially if you are using artemesia. Just some thoughts...
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Pinelady
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posted
I am sure we have some LLMD's working on it.
But I would like to see differentials of patients
who do take supp.s like D and Calcium, etc. as
opposed to those who don't. Level of recovery, length of
recovery, and sustainability of wellness.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
What's the difference between biofilm and fibrin? I was tested for fibrin, and my levels came back high. I also have factor 5 leiden. I hope I don't have biofilm too!!
Kathy
-------------------- You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have. Posts: 807 | From South Dakota | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
NAC dissolves biofilms. It is also a precursor to glutathione.
It can be a little hard on some stomachs since it breaks down mucus. I take it every day (and Slippery Elm Bark after), and I have no issues.
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Keebler
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- Without magnesium, the seizures that come my way from startles would nearly kill me. With steady magnesium, that is about 70%- 80% better. I've tried on and off, several times.
Hyperacusis is about 30% better, making it just bearable but the sound-triggered startles are less damaging. That says a lot in my case. Magnesium is clearly my best brain protector.
My sleep is also much better with steady magnesium supplementation. And that, alone, can be life saving. No drugs needed for sleep for over a dozen years now, with magnesium on board, full force.
Pain is also much less with magnesium (and calcium) holding steady. I cannot imagine my life without magnesium. I probably would have jumped ship long ago without it. (Oh, yeah, it helps with mood, too.) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Keebler, what form of magnesium do you use? And do you know if it matters whether we try transdermal or oral?
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Pinelady
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Interview with Researcher who went from Cancer research to Borrelia research after contracting it.
Speaks of finding all forms in biofilms.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Keebler
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posted
- Robin,
Magnesium Glycinate works for me. I also like one with taurine in it. Citrate can be helpful, too.
Transdermal sounds good but I've not had the energy to really read all about that and compare buying options and brands, etc. As I recall, the cost of it was beyond my means and I just gave up on that.
The beauty with transdermal is that the stomach is not going to be irritated (as it can be), there is faster absorption and better. Less it needed. But, it may not be enough. I'd go go both, oral and transdermal - with some rotation, etc. It's good to switch things around now and then.
You can also dissolve epson salts in half a pitcher of warm water (a hard acrylic pitcher) before a shower. After bathing, add warmer water to the pitcher pour over you and wait a few minutes (time for breathing exercises) . . . RINSE off very well, maybe even lightly soap again.
In just a few minutes, more can be absorbed from a 1/8 of epson salts than in a bath with a couple cups.
Be mindful that if it starts to itch, rinse immediately. More is not better as it can be too strong and burn the skin - and that could take a week or more to resolve. 1/8 cup in a half-gallon of water is a place to start. Stand ready for the shower but, hopefully, you could do this for 2 - 3 minutes. Just don't push - or dilute mixture even more.
A shower chair would be of help, or just sit in the bathtub.
Soaking feet in an epson salt bath is also very good. Having someone around for a follow up foot rub, even better. -
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Haley
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This is an ongoing debate.
The research that was done on this is fairly recent.
I recently went to a conference where "the guru MD on Lyme" indicated it may not be a good idea to take Magnesium orally. In the past he had said "take lots and lots of Magnesium."
I have low iron and vitamin D so I take these sups occasionally but not as much as I had in the past. I sometimes take Magnesium at night to help with sleep.
I mean com'on first I can't eat sugar, then no wine and now I have to eat sauerkraut. Soon we won't be able to eat anything including supplements.
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sparkle7
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posted
I go through periods where I stop & start things to see if they are effective. I also use medical dowsing to see what I need on a day to day basis.
I just started taking a magnesium called Super Mag. It's pretty good. You have to put some boiling water in it, It has magnesium gluconate, aspartate, carbomate & citrate.
Fibrin (also called Factor Ia) is a fibrous protein involved in the clotting of blood, and is non-globular. It is a fibrillar protein that is polymerised to form a "mesh" that forms a hemostatic plug or clot (in conjunction with platelets) over a wound site.
-
I think this is different than biofilms. I think the biofilms are mostly in the intestines. Fibrin is in the blood. It's just my personal dyslexic view... I'd have to study it further. I don't think they really are related.
They may use similar supplements to break it up. One herb many people were excited about here is Triphala for reducing biofilm. I didn't know that NAC was also effective. Thanks! I'm taking that anyway.
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springshowers
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posted
sparkle
The biofilms that many are talking about I think are in the blood as well. The tests you get from Fry Labs show them and they are surrounding the bacteria and protozoan and fungal infections.
Those are the ones that we are told to try to combat and not help build up.
SO those are different than thick blood or fibrin but from what I hear if you have thick blood then it is harder to deal with the biofilms or they are even worse than if you do not.
Hope that makes sense.
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springshowers
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posted
Dr K quotes
"Common deficiencies in Lyme: magnesium: has to be given transdermal or via injection. Oral Mag feeds spirochetes"
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Pinelady
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Some doctors believe the best way to get your iron is to use a cast iron skillet to cook with. As it
is supposedly better absorbed by the body. I like the ones sold at local restaurant C B.
If you get a new one don't forget to season it first before cooking with it.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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quote: We still need to supplement magnesium so that the rest of our cells can get it.
This isn't true at all....mag will not get you better unless you're doing something worth while to kill the bugs. Ive been mag free for over two years, and it's the best move that I have made.
Supplements can help you feel better for a time as long as you are taking abx or herbs, but they eally just get in the way of destroying the enemie IMO.
-------------------- You're only a failure when you stop trying. Posts: 945 | From U.S | Registered: Oct 2004
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sparkle7
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All of the above few statements are interesting! Thanks...
I don't take magnesium as religiously as I used to. I had a fibro diagnosis prior to Lyme. It's a big supplement for fibro. Lots of people probably take it thinking they have fibro & they probably have Lyme. It might be making us worse?
This is why I use medical dowsing... I can't say it's 100% accurate but with all the differing opinions - who knows what is what.
It's really confusing...
springshowers - thanks for the clarification about fibrinogen, sticky blood & bio-films. So, there are bio-films in the blood & in the intestines. Anywhere else?
I'm sure you need very different things to treat the bio-films...? Maybe not. Like I said, it's pretty complicated.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Through my research on biofilms, the "jury" is still out on biofilms from the researcher perspective. I asked these very questions when I interviewed some of the top biofilm researchers, and you can read through the interviews and watch clips here:
I do believe we are ALL on the right track as we are asking the right questions! It's funny (sort of) in that the responses here in this topic somewhat mirror the responses I received in my interviews with doctors & researchers...
We're getting there folks....
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tracy9
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Oh, this is exactly what they were talking about yesterday at the UNH conference. Dr. Wulfman said do not take magnesium orally because of biofilms and I did not quite get it; you just explained it.
He said get your magnesium by epsom salt baths and magenesium oil only, not orally. Now I get it.
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Pinelady and Coldfeet - great links!! Thanks!
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karenl
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Tracy,
for me it is hard to understand. Even if we use the mag oil on the skin it will get inside our body and the bacterias can use it.
If something is available for our body it is also available for the bugs.
To me this does not make sense.
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Through the first years of my treatment for Lyme starting in 1998 under Dr. K. nobody ever talked or suggested I take magnesium. I never did except what might have been in a multiple mineral.
I always wondered about it, because I got well without it.
This is what Dr. K. said in July 09 about Biofilm: during an interview:
Q: What are your thoughts on the impact of biofilms?
A: Biofilms are likely a major component of why many patients continue to have persistent infection. The biofilms are loaded with protective agents that not only protect the organisms they house, but biofilms can virtually explode and kill white blood cells and thus thwart any attempt on the part of the immune system to remove the pathogens which are protected by the biofilm.
Unfortunately, today, there is no single treatment that is effective for biofilms. We have used various compounds such as EDTA and green clay with some success. However, this is an area that needs further study, and more effective agents will be required.
COPYRIGHT 2009 The Townsend Letter Group
Today he suggests high amounts of artemesinin both orally and rectally/suppository - and you should see the saran wrapped stool that is being delivered. I have seen it myself - just slightly greyish white saran wrap! And who knows what else is wrapped inside of it? Necessity is the mother of all inventions --- whatever works to get two birds with one stone. Check out Dr. Henry Lai, Univ Wash - artemesinin and cancer and a few other bugs.
Take care.
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posted
Hi GiGi: How does one get hold of artemisinin suppositories? And what does Dr K consider a 'high dose' of artemisinin?
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posted
Bear in mind that polymicrobial biofilm communities may be more difficult to eradicate than other types. Stated differently, the monomicrobial ones may be easier to treat. This is my understanding based on conversations with biofilm researchers.
I believe Dr. Wolcott's experience is based primarily on wound care, which involves really nasty infections involving diabetic ulcers (e.g., foot), burns, bed sores, etc. These are generally open wounds with a complex ecosystem of microbes. It remains to be seen how this will translate to treatments that are ``auto-immune,'' or what I would call ``systemically deployed biofilm communities.'' More specifically, microbial biofilm communities in the joints, spinal cord, discs, brain and sequestered elsewhere.
Here's a weird way of looking at this contest: the battle for biological real estate within the human host has begun. Actually, eons ago. Some of us are losing this silent war and suffering as a result.
Any way, back to this virtue of human hope. Dr. Wolcott is truly saving lives and limbs. He's a hero by many peoples' standards. My hope is that his learnings will transfer to other people with biofilm-related conditions. But don't worry - many other talented, smart people are devoted to this cause! Don't lose hope!
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
rks that's an interesting article. thank you. So when Dr W uses hamamelitanin, xylitol, and lactoferrin for non-healing wounds caused by biofilms, he's using it externally. I wonder if that mix can be taken orally.
He's also scrubbing to break up the external biofilms. I wonder how important that is.
Posts: 702 | From North Eastern USA | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
I do go to the Dr. that has the lab that was mentioned in the first post. He see's under his microscope that magnesium builds a thicker wall around our red blood cells that contain the C shape or L shape protozoan. We are talking Babesiosis or a new protozoan type of disease. He is cutting edge, and he is maybe on to something.He is trying to figure out why all of us are not getting better after years of treatment. You either agree with him or you don't. I do and don't actually. He has asked for us,to not take magnisium, as it builds a too thick wall of biofilm around the cell. He has stated that antibiotics do not break thru that film, no matter what kind of combo we use. He is asking us to take D3 to break the biofilm down, as he has collected data that D3 makes the biofilm 'thinner' and antibiotics can get to it better. I am following his guide, might not totally agree with it, as through the years I've taken magnisium and felt better with it. But, when I lay out in the sun (yes, feel better doing it) and take more D3... WITH all my zithromax and all... I will herx more with doing that. And isn't that what we're trying to do? kill the little buggers?
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
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sparkle7
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Evaluation of antimicrobial efficacy of herbal alternatives (Triphala and green tea polyphenols), MTAD, and 5% sodium hypochlorite against Enterococcus faecalis biofilm formed on tooth substrate: an in vitro study.
posted
hadlyme, what dosage of D3 does your doc have you take? what about iron?
Posts: 702 | From North Eastern USA | Registered: Dec 2009
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He really wasn't clear on how much that I should take. He said depending on the level of deficiency, 400-5000 IU per day. I was his only patient that one out of my 3 D3 level tests (in the last 7 months) were in the normal range. I do lay out in the sun here in AZ, and have always felt better when I get my body heated up (infrared sauna's, hot tubs, I do sun). If I can't get out in the sun once a week, I do take my D3.
No talking of Iron, but with our instructions/guidelines from him when I started, he did ask if we would stay away from Arginine, an amino acid. We can eat foods with a good ratio of Lysine/Arginine, but not foods high in the arginine. As I said, he's a microbiologist, and he's going on what he see's under his 'scope' as in what is helping our bugs mulitply and not die. He makes sense when you hear him talk (one of our large support groups recently) and most of his papers are soon to be published. There are many dr's and protocols out there, we all need to find what works for each of us. We've all heard of MRSA, which has the same thick biofilm around the bacteria. According to my dr, our 'bugs' are the same way... and is just trying to find a way to break thru this and get us all better. He's not selling anything but his scientific data. Whether I or all of us agree, I do like how he's genuinely trying to help us.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
thanks! I'm gonna go look up what has arginine in it. can't lay out n the sun cos i'm on zith--same as doxy with the sun sensitivity warning.
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