littlebit27
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*Note*-I figured it would be ok to use the full last name since he has books and is "out there" when it comes to Lyme. If not mods, please correct it for me.
I searched here and found the most recent post from almost 9 months ago.
Looking for more recent experiences with the core protocol.
I am reading the three-andrographis, cat's claw, and japanese knotweed- all really help.
I am thinking about trying this, and while I just had an appointment with my LLMD yesterday I'm going to call over to the office today and see what he thinks about doing this. I'm sure he will say ok -- as long as there is no interaction with my meds -- because my LLMD is a MD and ND. But I was experiences. He can tell me oh yeah good protocol but can't tell me how badly one herxes on it.
He said he wanted to try cat's claw later on. And he wants to start me on Flagyl in 2 months after I try the amoxy/probe combo for 6-8 weeks. But it's been two months since I started treating-well into the third month- and nothing is getting better. I was on doxy, told me to quit that and wait a couple days then start amoxy combo. I'm ready to find something that is going to help with more immediate relief as I have read amoxy/probe is good but slow acting.
I have an organic store near me that seems to carry a huge load of all different kinds of things so I was going to check it out and see if they have these things, if not order them offline.
Hoosiers51
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I have not read the book or anything and I know very little about the protocol....I just asked a few people, got the name of those 3 supps, and tried them, since I don't have much brain power to do research.
Here were the brands recommended to me: Source Naturals Resveratrol, Planetary Herbals Andrographis. I bought both on www.iherb.com.
I think Buhner recommends those brands in his book, among other brands/sources.
I stuck with the Nutramedix Samento instead of Cat's Claw for now, because I like Nutramedix products and had heard good things about Samento. Though in the future I'll probably try the Cat's Claw, which is more of the whole herb, is my understanding.
The Andographis made me herx after the first pill. Just bad herx headaches. Then, I was stupid and forgot to take it the next two days. Then when I restarted it, it wasn't making me herx. So I dunno what that means.
The Samento so far is actually making me feel a small boost of energy/wellbeing.
Resveratrol...most people seem to see benefit, but it's hard for me to tell at this point if it's helping or not.
Keep in mind I have been treating awhile and have been doing lots of heavy duty treatment. A newbie like you might herx a lot more.
I don't know if these are the correct doses or not, but I"m doing 1 Andrographis (400 mg) twice a day, and 2 Resveratrol in the AM, 2 in the PM (yield is 100 mg per pill, though it is labelled 50% trans resveratrol 200 mg per pill)
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littlebit27
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This came from another webpage. 3http://www.prohealth.com/lyme/blog/boardDetail.cfm?id=871
His "Core Protocol" involves:
Andrographis paniculata, standardized to 10% andrographolides. 400mg, 1-4 capsules or tablets 3-4x daily for 8-12 months.
Japanese Knotweed (Resveratrol): 1-4 tablets 3-4x daily for 8-12 months. The standardized tablets (e.g. those manufactured by Source Naturals, which he recommends) contain 1/2 gram (500mg) of standardized Polygonum cuspidatum whole herb (Hu Zhang) and 10mg of resveratrol.
quote:Originally posted by littlebit27: *Note*-I figured it would be ok to use the full last name since he has books and is "out there" when it comes to Lyme. If not mods, please correct it for me.
Normally, no it would not be okay, even if he had books or a website. In this case, he is an herbalist, not a physician treating Lyme, so yes, it's okay.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Keebler
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- Please read the book before starting any thing in this protocol. The education this book provides is very solid - and absolutely essential so that one can proceed wisely:
[ 05-28-2010, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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littlebit27
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Thank you Keebler-
I really want to get the book, but this is sad, I'm not sure I should really spend the $20 to get it right now.
Then the herbs just for 20 days at the lowest dose is going to be at least $40.
And Six- Got it! No more names although I'm not really sure why if they have a book out, oh well I guess it's not for me to understand, just to follow. Thank you!
quote:Originally posted by littlebit27: And Six- Got it! No more names although I'm not really sure why if they have a book out, oh well I guess it's not for me to understand, just to follow. Thank you!
I know of at least one LLMD who has books and a website who does not want his name mentioned. It's different when they're putting info out there than when there is chatter from patients regarding treatment. We need to protect our LLMD's!!
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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I am currently doing the Cowden protocol but have read Stephen B's book "Healing Lyme" and really like what he has to say. It all makes sense and I am thinking about switching over to his protocol.
Unfortunately my NP wants to stick with Cowden, but cost wise Cowden is way more expensive.
In his book, SB talks a lot about the Cat's claw controversy and he definitely believes the whole herb is better.
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littlebit27
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Six-oh I understand we need to protect our docs. I'm just saying, if they don't want their name mentioned anywhere then why write a book? Doesn't make sense to me. But like I said it's not for me to understand.
I talked to the nurse she said she would ask the doc about the protocol and get back to me. I'm on so many RXs I want to make sure I don't have interactions.
I need to find something for inflammation. I told the nurse if my LLMD has a suggestion for a natural way to control inflammation I will try it.
My fingers get so swollen I can't bend them very much and sometimes I can't bend them at all. This mostly happens in the middle of the night. Not sure why???
Hoosiers51
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I also haven't yet gotten the book because I didn't want to spend the money (even though it is so cheap!). Something about Lyme makes you compulsively save.
But I think I'm gonna break down and order it this week, because it is ridiculous for me to be taking these herbs without some kind of professional guidance.
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Keebler
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- Some local lyme support groups may loan out books. Just ask.
=============
On a different note: Turmeric / Curcumin is an excellent help for inflammation, too.
posted
i am on the protocal. you could try getting the book at your library or try amazon.
you can also go online and use the wonderful Planet thrive site, which has lots of great info.
i ve been on cat claw ,resveratrol, andro, and sarsparrila for 5 months. i started very slow and have been on my max dose of 4 pills 3 times a day for seven weeks.
cant manage 4 pills 4 times a day
i am not on ABX or have done any ABX so i don't have any experience doing both.
i have felt more tired and have more flu like pain along with all my "normal" pain.
the hardest part has been getting that many pills down. i am trying to fit in a few binders as well, just a pain in the booty with timming.
i would get the herbs online. if you are in a hurry to start you could get one bottle of each from the store while you wait to get them via mail. but , its much cheaper on line.
the company Dr. B reccomends in his book for the Resveratrol does not provide the RIGHT one any longer. you can the the one you need from vitamin life .
Source naturals Resveratrol 40mg "classic" 120 pills is 19.37. the UPC is 021078023432
source took in off the market for a bit then re-released it calling it classic. i had some problems getting it for awhile.
you will have difficulty getting it at healthfood stores. most of the product out there is a blend or just from grapes alone and Dr.b explains why you want the japanese knotwood and the right dosage in his book.
while i am glad i am giving this a go. it is hard taking this many pills. i am on lots of pain meds then the herbs, binders and vitamins, it gets a little crazy.
i take them with food otherwise i feel sick to my stomach. the herbs changed the way food tasted for awhile ...everything tasted a little nasty like the herbs themselves or metalic. but it went away.
good luck to you!
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quote:Originally posted by Hoosiers51: I also haven't yet gotten the book because I didn't want to spend the money (even though it is so cheap!). Something about Lyme makes you compulsively save.
But I think I'm gonna break down and order it this week, because it is ridiculous for me to be taking these herbs without some kind of professional guidance.
You should really buy and read the book. I found it ironic that the best researched book on Lyme with the most scientific detail and medical literature citations was written by an herbalist. I've read it several times now and I always seem to learn something new.
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nefferdun
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I also believe he has written the most informative book. In fact, I can't get most of it through my lyme brain, it is so in depth! He is also not promoting his own brand of herbs.
I use andrographis and resveratrol with bartonella treatment. The first time I took andrographis I thought I had a reaction to it but it was probably a herx. I quit using it at that time,but now have no trouble.
I used 1500 mg TOA free cat's claw and 1200 mg grapefruit seed extract for lyme.
With your swollen hands, it could be bart and that is why the lyme meds are not doing anything.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
Andrographis is a spirochete killer that breaks the blood brain barrier and is anti inflammatory.
Smilax/sasparilla is an L form killer that breaks blood brain barrier and is a toxin binder.
The two together makes for a powerful combination against lyme.
The book is very worthwhile. Has the basic protocol plus ideas of herbs for certain symptoms ie insomnia, inflammation, brain fog, etc.
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littlebit27
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I know I need to buy the book I just had to buy a new dryer yesterday because my old one took a crapper...naturally, lol.
I will most likely go pick up the book today. It sounds very interesting and I know I should read it before starting the protocol.
I definitely want to try it after hearing what everyone has to say.
I didn't know the swelling could be bart.
I asked my LLMD about the co-infections and he said he doesn't want to attack them right now because I came up negative from Igenex. So he doesn't want to start that for a while. But wants me to be re-tested first-sure if he wants to pay the fees to be tested again, lol.
He put me on amoxy/probe but doesn't want to start flagyl until 2 months from now, does that sound right?
I bought the cat's claw and am looking for the other two locally but right now I find it is much cheaper to buy them online. I found them at iherbs.com, anyone use them before?
littlebit27
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Another question- I have heard from someone that cat's claw causes EXTREME herxes, is this true for everyone, or have people had good experiences with it.
And- does the book, "Healing Lyme" explain which herb targets which infection and why? I want to know exactly why I am taking each herb.
ukcarry
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I would recommend SB's book, even if you decide not to follow his protocol, as it is one of the best books on Lyme, I think and a very useful reference.
SB also actually suggests that his protocol is followed alongside antibiotics, so there shouldn't be a conflict of care there.
There is no doubt that having this illness bleeds you horribly financially, but iherb, for example, offeres many of the herbs at a good rate.
I can second the suggestion of curcumin [from keebler] for inflammation and I do think it has helped my leg-swelling.
If you do decide to try the SB protocol, there is help and advice from him available via planetthrive.com,
littlebit27
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Oye, so where did this one go, Andrographis? Someone mentioned it above as a good anti-inflamatory, which I need...bad. I'm so confused.
I just looked on planetthrive. I looked yesterday and didn't notice the change to the protocol, can't believe I missed that.
So what is the new eleutherococcus for? I'm going to search around planetthrive and see what I can find. If I can find anything more explaining it I will come back and post it.
He needs to write an updated version of his book, lol!
littlebit27
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Well that's not bad. For all three excluding cat's claw, cause I found that locally for $7.99, brand NOW, the total on iherb.com comes to $28 and some change with the coupon code I found. And only $6 for shipping? Not bad!
I saw on another herb/vitamin site, the eleutherococcus is for "physical and mental energy and stamina"
Can I still take the andrographis for the inflammation?
littlebit27
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I ordered the book from Amazon. Went to the "local" book stores (about an hour away, should have called first) and no one had it. Now that I look at it I'm really NOT suprised they didn't have it, I really should have thought about that before driving all the way down there, lol.
It should be here sometime next week or the week after.
**nefferdun**
I didn't see anything about swollen hands being bart. I'll have to look into that.
LLMD said the other day that I don't have any co-s (per Igenex Test results) so we don't have to worry about that. I said back to him that even though I tested negative that I still feel like I have a lot of symptoms of both bart and babs. He said ok let me rephrase that, right now you are testing negative so we can look at it again at the next appointment and maybe have you re-test. HA! I'm not paying for another Igenex test, can't afford it!
ukcarry
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Canefan, I think you have confused astragalus with andrographis:
SB has never suggested astragalus for chronic lyme, only for acute [ie immediately after tick bite].
It is andrographis that used to be his number one herb for lyme, whereas now resveratrol is the first choice, partly because he found that quite a few people were sensitive to andrograhis.
Littlebit, if you go this route, it is advisable to start each herb separately at low dose, so that you can identify if you are going to have problems with any of them. There's no reason that I know of that you shouldn't take andrographis [starting slowly].
betterhealthguy.com has a recent interview with SB in which you can read his own words on the matter,
littlebit27
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Thanks. I am planning to start the cat's claw first because it's the only one I have. I will probably be on that one alone for at least a week. Not sure when I'll be able to order the rest of them.
I'll look up that web page. *edited* I looked it up but can't find the interview. I can only find the conference from 2005. Could you point me in the right direction please?
littlebit27
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Oh and one more question- When do I take the supplements?
Probiotics away from antibiotics, I know that. Nystatin it doesn't matter unless I was taking florastor or something but I'm not. Supplements? Such as SB's protocol and magnesium. Does it matter when I take those?
Someone suggested I try the cat's claw first at lunch time, so I *might* try it today. Not sure if I'm brave enough
ukcarry
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The interview Scott did with Stephen B is in April's issue of Public Health Alert.
When you type in www.betterhealthguy.com you arrive at a page with the picture of the article [something like 'From a source of profound...comes hope']...the long- haired guy in the picture is SB!
Follow the link below and you will get a pdf of the relevant issue of PublicHealthAlert.
Full dose of most of the herbs is 4 taken 3-4 times a day: mealtimes and bedtime is fine, so you could start your cat's claw with a meal and see how you go..
...good idea to take it once a day for the week and then build up and perhaps introduce resveratrol or smilax/sarsaparilla, leaving andrographis till last if you're going to try it.
By all means, if you have chronic fatigue-type symptoms, try the eleuthero too, but I would hold off doing anything other than the cat's claw until your book has arrived and you've had time to 'digest'it.
I don't think there'sa problem taking the herbs with magnesium [I always have], but don't quote me on that!
littlebit27
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And what about taking herbs/vitamins around antibiotics. Since my LLMD agreed to switch me to amoxy/probe I have to take it three times a day. Which in my schedule means it will be 5am, 1pm, and 9pm.
ukcarry
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I took the full Buhner protocol at the same time of day as Doxycycline and have since taken some of these herbs individually alongside amoxy.
I can't see in my book any mention of not taking them at the same time of day, but you could check the questions and answers on planetthrive in case he answered this directly.
Be sure to read the side effect/contraindication section for each herb when your book arrives,
littlebit27
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Oh dear, lol. Maybe I should see if I can find something online about the contradictions with cat's claw. I'm on 7 different scripts right now. Maybe I should just wait until the book comes.
Rain-tree is reputable yes? So I can assume all this information is correct. It's a lot to read.
Does the book explain which prescriptions should not be taken with it? If so can someone look in their book and tell me which prescriptions can't be taken with it. I would greatly appreciate it.
I'm going to look on Rain-Tree for the other meds, just in case I order the meds before the book comes.
ukcarry
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You're welcome, Littlebit!
I've looked up the cat's claw interactions in SB's book and this is what it says-
Herb/drug interactions: 'Do not take with stomach acid blockers or antacids such as PeptoBismol,there is some concern that they can inactivate the herb. Do not use with immunosuppressive drugs such as cyclosporin. The herb may potentiate the action of coumadin and other blood thinning drugs.'
Contraindications: 'Do not use if you've had an organ transplant or are using immunosuppressive drugs. Do not use if you are trying to become pregnant. Do not use if you are using blood thinning medications or are scheduled for surgery. Cease use of herb 10 days prior to any surgery.
Raintree cat's claw is the one SB recommends and yes, they have a great reputation,
littlebit27
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Well then I think I'm good. I think. I'm taking neurontin for nerve pain, which can cause excessive bleeding but it's not a med FOR blood-thinning.
Oye, I've never had such anxiety taking meds until this Lyme crap. I use to just anything and think oh I'll be fine.
Now I think I'm going to die each time I take something new, I hate anxiety!
It's seems to be pretty reliable. I put in a know drug interaction with my meds to see if it came up and it did.
I put in all my meds with cat's claw and there is no interaction. But cat's claw does have over 40 different interactions with other meds, mostly minor though.
ukcarry
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Sound as if you're OK to go ahead and try a cat's claw then.
I know what you mean about the anxiety: the illness itself causes it and can also cause more pronounced reactions to things, so it's always sensible to check and to start new things slowly in small quantities.
In this case, I'm sure you'll feel more relaxed about it once you've actually tried the cat's claw and once you've had a chance to read the book,
sparkle7
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Good luck with the herbs. I bought the book but it's been in storage for the last year & I do miss it. It's great to have on hand for reference.
Herbs take time to work. They are not like taking drugs that you may feel right away. The synergistic effects of herbs sometimes have a greater effect - so it's good to take them together. There are benefits of taking them one at a time, too. You can see if you actually feel different from them.
You really have to read the Resveratrol label to make sure it's from Japanese Knotweed. That's the one that is recommended for Lyme. It's important to get good quality herbs since the quality can vary from brand to brand.
Sometimes you can get away with cheaper herbs but you have to make sure the source is reputable. Old herbs lose potency & some are inferior quality. You can't really tell when it's all chopped up in a capsule.
All of this is very confusing at first. I didn't know if I should try Rife, drugs, herbs - you don't know if the tests are accurate... It's a mess.
I would try to treat the co-infections despite what the doctor says. The tests aren't accurate - so, it's hard to tell whether you have them or not.
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Japanese Knotweed has a variety of names that you should be aware of, including polygonum cuspidatum, tiger cane, etc. So you may have thought a product did not contain japanese knotweed when it actually did.
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ukcarry
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Yes, I would recommend that you get the Source Naturals Resveratrol, as SB suggests and then you know what you're getting.
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littlebit27
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I have another product he recommends in my cart at iherb.com I got the name off the planetthrive. Can't remember it now.
Actually, I got all three supplements he recommended on the planetthrive site.
And I got Brand Name NOW for cat's claw. Which I asked here and was told it was a good brand. So I guess my Organic/Health Foods store here is a decent one, lol! Good to know since I got my probiotic from there too.
I was scared of the reaction being quick because I've heard many people talking about bad herxes from cat's claw. Maybe it takes a couple days to take effect.
Just so I understand this correctly...I start out at only 1 capsule 3 X a day yes? For all of them, one at a time for 3-7 days to make sure I don't get any bad reactions?
I'll figure out what to do next before I make it that far since my book should be here by then!
I really appreciate all the helpful posts!
Edited to Add: Paradise Herbs for the japansese knotwood and the andro one.
littlebit27
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Ok someone please help...
You can't take probiotics within 2hours of antibiotics, I got that.
Nystatin doesn't matter. Got it!
But I read it doesn't matter when you take supplements, but I just read it does matter and not to take ANY supplements or vitamins near antibiotics, so again 2 hours away?
Someone please help me and answer this question. It's going to be extremely difficult to follow SB's protocol and take amoxy 3 X a day as well.
I'll have to take amoxy at 5am, 1pm, and 9pm. I was planning on taking the supplements the same time. I go to bed at 9-10pm every night. So I would have to take the supplements at 7am, 3pm, and again at?!?!! I don't know. I'm going to need a computer program that beeps at me when it's time to take another pill here soon.
ukcarry
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I would take one cat's claw once a day on day 1, 1 twice a day day 2, 1 three times a day day 3, then 1 four times daily on day4.
If you're OK with that, stick with that dose for the next few days, then increase to 2 four times a day for the next 7 days...and so on until you get to full dose.
If you mistrust taking the herbs alongside abx, you may need to write out a timetable at first and stick a copy by your bed and a copy on the fridge, for example. I did that at one stage until it became second nature.
littlebit27
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Well I took 2 yesterday and 1 so far today. So maybe I'll skip the mid day dose and just take one more tonight, I don't know.
It's not that *I* mistrust taking them together, I just read somewhere that antibiotics should not be taken at the same time as herbs which makes it really difficult. So I am trying to figure it all out.
I can't wait until the book gets here so I can figure this all out, I'm so confused.
ukcarry
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Don't worry, Littlebit, the book will arrive soon and you'll find it good for reference.
All I can add is that I can't find anywhere on Planet Thrive or in the book where SB discusses the timing of taking his herbs and antibiotics. I feel it probable that, if he thought this was an important issue, he would probably have made this very clear more than once.
You could try asking him the question on PlanetThrive and then you could adjust your schedule according to his advice. I doubt if there is a long waiting list of questions there at the moment.
By the way, it would be sensible to have your liver enzymes checked by your doctor every so often whilst on the herbs and abx...if you're not already having this done for the antibiotics alone,
littlebit27
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I know I really need to get my liver and kidney functions checked.
MY LLMD is sending an order to me via mail to go to the local lab and get blood drawn. I'll probably go this week or next.
I tried to ask a question and got an email back from the founder saying something about he has lots of questions and yada yada. She tried to tell me he had already answered my question but she apparently misunderstood my question because the answer she provided was not at all related to my question. LOL.
I agree that if he thought it was important it would be mentioned more than once and I also could not find it on planetthrive. So for now I'll just take them together because that's the easiest schedule!
posted
be wise go slow and hopefully you won't have any serious reactions. i didn't have any real herx at even my highest does.
what i wanted to share is, i developed POTS after taking Savella for pain. its took months for me to get better.
i went off the savella and took a hawthorn complex and then soon after the savella hell i started the Dr. B- herbs.
the herbs andro esp can lower blood pressure. they are a diaretic so you are peeing more and losing more salt that way.
so, i held back the andro dosage for awhile so i wouldn't be adding to my dizzyness and lightheadness. the other herbs can lower it as well but the andro seemed to do it the most.
most people have problems with high BP but i just wanted to put that out there in case you too have low BP.
he does mention it, but its not listed as a contraindication its listed as one of its attributes so it might be easier to miss.
take care
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littlebit27
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Thanks for the info. My blood pressure is on the low end of high. It's right above 120/80 usually. But it is good to know just incase it drops.
posted
Little Bit 27, You have made the decision to research and help yourself and that is fabulous and fundamental!
Now, stop . . . take a deep breath . . . let it out . . .
You have lots of questions and it is good to get them answered. The book will help a lot. The author discusses what chemicals are in each herb and how they affect your body that makes them beneficial for lyme, goes through research done on each herb, traditional uses, dosages, etc. The book does have the new addendum to protocol.
My advice is to not try anything until you've researched it. Then try one new thing at a time so that if you have a bad reaction you can pin point it. Give it 3 days or so before adding something else new into your protocol. Build it slowly over time.
Tick borne illnesses are very complex and take a long time to fight so nothing has to be done overnight. Take the time to do it right. Your body will appreciate it. You are in this for the long haul.
Your liver, kidneys, and spleen definitely need support during this fight. Research possibilities (see other threads around this site) and talke with your doc.
Testing for Babesia and Bartonella is very difficult. Many llds make the clinical diagnosis based on symptoms. Many give herbs or ABX that target these infections and see how you react. You may want to experiment with the herbal protocol described in the book to help target other co infections and that would save you $$ on testing.
If you kill bugs well with ABX you may not need herbs that do the same thing. Too much can really overload your body. Kill as much as your body can handle ridding the toxin load.
As for timing, a general good rule is to take killers with killers and supports away from that. So you may take ABX with herbs that kill at the same time (if it isn't too much for your system), then supportive therapies (vitamins, liver support) 2-3 hours later.
Good luck!
Posts: 62 | From U.S. | Registered: Apr 2009
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Carol in PA
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 5338
posted
If you decide to take the cat's claw that Buhner recommends, iHerb carries it.
Whatever you buy, you can change the brand if you want to the next time you order. Capsules are usually better than tablets, as the herb doesn't need to be compressed.
You might not be able to work up to four capsules of each herb four times daily, as Buhner recommennds. If your schedule is hectic, you might only be able to get the doses in two or three times daily.
Something else...no matter how well you plan, you will probably end up needing to place another order sooner than you expected. Something always runs out.
Go for the free shipping. Spend your money on the herbs, not the shipping. Check out the free samples.
Don't forget the magnesium and the fish oil!
Carol
Posts: 6947 | From Lancaster, PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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littlebit27
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24477
posted
Thanks everyone.
LOL Carol, yes I need to be reminded A LOT! And I won't be actually placing the order W/O looking at this thread first!
As far as the brands, I am going to order the ones he recommends on Plant Thrive, I think two of them were paradise herbs, and the other was...herb pharm. I have those in my cart already.
I am hoping to order by the 7th but am waiting to see what working is going to do.
My book *should* be here by Friday according to UPS! I can't wait to get reading!
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