posted
I don't think there is a test stating how long you've had it. The IGG and IGM can tell if it's a new infection or old... but not 'how' long you've had it.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
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bcb1200
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The only evidence I'm aware of are bands 31 and 34 on the western blot. These take at least 1 year to show up. So if you have them, you've had it a while.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3134 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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nenet
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quote:Originally posted by bcb1200: The only evidence I'm aware of are bands 31 and 34 on the western blot. These take at least 1 year to show up. So if you have them, you've had it a while.
Hi bcb1200 - do you have a reference for that information, like a study or something?
It sounds interesting, I've never heard of it before.
nenet
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posted
quote:Originally posted by bcb1200: The only evidence I'm aware of are bands 31 and 34 on the western blot. These take at least 1 year to show up. So if you have them, you've had it a while.
bcb1200, could you help me understand where you got that information?
Do you have a reference to a study, or where did that info come from? It sounds interesting and useful, but I'd never heard of it before.
nenet
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posted
quote:Originally posted by hadlyme: I don't think there is a test stating how long you've had it. The IGG and IGM can tell if it's a new infection or old... but not 'how' long you've had it.
I thought according to Dr. C's Western Blot explanation that these are actually different in the case of Lyme.
As I understand it, he says that contrary to the usual response in other diseases, in chronic (long-term) Lyme, IgM is more likely to be positive than IgG, because the pathogen (and the immune system's response to it) keeps cycling.
fflutterby, Dr. C's Western Blot Explanation might help you understand Lyme testing and what clues it might give you. The link is below in my signature.
posted
I'm curious about bands 31 and 34 since I was IND for each and thought to have been infected less than 3 months prior to my Igenex testing.
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feelfit
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I've read that band 31 is indicative of long term infection as well...there is reference to it....I'll try to find it for those who are interested.
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feelfit
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Those who agree with this assessment, such as Greer and independent laboratory Igenex, point out that certain bands, such as 31kDa, 34kDa, and 39kDa (kDa is a unit of measurement that determines antibody responses to specific proteins found on the bacteria) reflect proteins that virtually exclusive to B. burgdorferi; Igenex claims that 31kDa and 34kDa not only indicate Lyme disease, but that they are actually specific to late stage Lyme disease [15]. The Lyme Disease Association believes that, not only do these bands have said significance, but their absence in commercial Western blots are responsible for a large number of false-negative blood tests [16]. Considering the fact that hundreds of thousands of people sick with Lyme disease have admittedly gone undiagnosed by the CDC, one really must consider the possibility that there does exist some credence to the above claim
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nenet
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Thanks feelfit! - where is that quote from?
"Greer and others, such as independent laboratory IGeneX, who agree with this assessment, point out that certain bands, such as 31kDa, 34kDa, and 39kDa, reflect proteins that are specific only to B. burgdorferi; IgeneX claims that 31kDa and 34kDa not only indicate Lyme disease, but that they are actually specific to late stage Lyme disease[11]."
The footnote reference is to a page from IGeneX's old website that is no longer accessible via google's cache or archive.org
I wonder if that statement reflects IGeneX's current views, or more current science. I wish we could find out what research they were originally referencing.
Anyone have any ideas or studies that back this up? It seems like an important clue for some folks if it is reliable. For those people that show those bands at least.
In other cases like mine, I definitely have had Lyme for at least 20-35 years, but I still don't show those bands (I have others), so if this is a marker, it seems it only is useful to those that have them.
feelfit
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nenet-
yes, that is the Igenex link that was referenced. Also found this:
The Alternative Criteria is based on both the number of bands and the significance of the antibodies detected. For example, Osp A (31) and Osp B (34) are important bands seen often in late stages of Lyme disease.
feelfit
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And here is a link to a study:
One interesting medical paper on the subject is Ma et al 1992 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC265062/pdf/jcm00026-0126.pdf). They claim that bands 31 and 34 almost NEVER appear in tandem except in late-stage Lyme disease
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nenet
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Ok, I checked through my files and I had the old web page downloaded ("IgeneX Innovations" 2003 www.igenex.com/innovations3.htm )
Unfortunately, it does not give any study references. I would quote the statements re: 31 and 34 kDa here, but I don't want to infringe on their copyright, especially if they stopped publishing those statements intentionally.
Since they took down this information, and it doesn't seem to be on their new site, I wonder if they no longer make these claims about kDa 31 and 34.
Hopefully I will be able to call them and ask about it sometime soon. If anyone else wants to look into it, please do.
Any time there is the possibility for additional definitive statements and info from Lyme testing results, that's another tool in our toolbox.
"In earlier studies, it was reported that antibodies to the 31 or 34 kDa proteins are rarely detected in late Lyme disease patients (14,28) and that these antibodies, when present, appear in tandem.
Both of these antibodies are present in vaccinated patients. In contrast to the earlier studies, we detected IgM and IgG antibodies to the 31 and 34 kDa proteins in patients as early as 21 days and up to 13 years after a tick-bite.
IgM antibodies to the 31 kDa protein were present in over 50% of Lyme patient sera up to one year after a tick-bite. After that time, IgM antibodies to this protein were present in less than 25% of the patients.
In contrast, IgG antibodies to the 31 kDa antigen were present in only 14% of the patients in the first year after a tick-bite but in 87.5% of the patients between one year and 13 years after a tick-bite.
IgM antibodies to the 34 kDa protein were detected up to three years after a tick-bite.
IgG antibodies against this protein were detected in only 17% of the patients in the first year after a tick-bite but in 75% of the patients between one year and 13 years after a tick-bite.
In a recent study performed on sera from 30 late Lyme patients, 29 patients' sera reacted with Osp A (31 kDa antigen) recombinant antigen (unpublished data).
[FIGURE 1 OMITTED]
Since 31 and 34 kDa bands on the IgG WB are rarely present early in the disease, these markers were not considered of importance for diagnosis of Lyme in earlier studies.
The present study clearly demonstrates the importance of these markers in diagnosis of late Lyme disease.
In the present study, Lyme patients were from Lyme-endemic regions of the US.
Therefore, it is possible that these markers, when detected in a few patients within the first year of diagnosis of Lyme disease, could represent more than one infection by B. burgdorferi.
Omitting the inclusion of 31 and 34 kDa bands might also explain the low sensitivity of the WB in late Lyme using the current standard criteria. (6)"
nenet
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I could be very wrong here, but it looks to me like the information regarding 31 and 34 kDa in IgG and IgM and late-stage/chronic Lyme is really only useful in a trend-analysis way, and not in clinical decision-making.
The reason I see it that way is that you could have very early or very late Lyme, and you could have either no 31 or 34, or both, or either, between 21 days and 13 years of infection.
It seems there is only a general trend towards having a higher likelihood of those bands as you reach the 1+ year mark (after which the likelihood begins to drop again).
This doesn't help to rule out early infection OR prove late infection (or vice versa), and shouldn't affect diagnosis of early or late Lyme, or treatment decisions, as I understand the current treatment guidelines (based on clinical presentation, and symptom history, etc).
Like I said, I could be wrong here, so please if anyone disagrees and can explain this I would be grateful.
(I'm not a medical professional, just mucking about in the research with the rest of you)
fflutterby
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posted
I am so confused with brain fog...what does mine mean???
-------------------- Psalm 46 1 God is our refuge and strength Posts: 1367 | From North Jersey | Registered: Sep 2010
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nenet
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If your LLMD is talking about you having high or low titers, it is likely in reference to an ELISA test. It is meant to show your overall immune response to Lyme - the higher the immune response, the higher the titer.
ELISA titers are no better a gauge of length of infection than any other type of test (actually the worst testing for Lyme out there).
The only currently effective way of gauging infection and length of infection is clinical presentation, exposure, and symptom history (in my non-medical opinion).
If you are asking about the WB test results you list in your signature, it means you have Lyme-specific antibodies to Lyme antigens.
band 23 is Lyme-specific. So your immune system is fighting that part of the Lyme bacteria that weighs 23 kDa (as well as the Lyme flagella or "tail" which weighs 41 kDa).
You can determine if you have late-stage Lyme by your symptoms. If you have any Nervous System symptoms (PNS or CNS), including brain symptoms, then that is called late-stage Lyme Disease, or neuroborreliosis.
Since you have "brain fog" that would be considered a neuroborreliosis symptom, otherwise known and encephalopathy, which is considered a late-stage Lyme symptom.
If you can, please try to print the following link out and read it bit by bit over time as you have the mental energy. It will help you understand all of this a bit better.
It took me a long time to finally understand it - my brain fog used to be too bad to even read the posts from other members here.
feelfit
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posted
fflutterby,
Sorry, you asked how to tell whether or not your infection was recent or longstanding....
the only references made about bands indicating long standing illness are bands 31 and 34..so far as I know.
You don't have those bands, so unless there is something in the literature in regards to YOUR bands 23+ and 41 reactive...you would, in my opinion only be able to tell by how long you've been symptomatic...
Or if you recall having been bitten in the past as opposed to recently....
you also asked about a titer:
titer (ti�tәr) the quantity of a substance required to react with or to correspond to a given amount of another substance
it is in reference to your blood work for lyme...You asked " does LabCorp do that" ? yes, but not very well.
IgeneX is the gold standard for lyme testing, MDL labs, Clongen....
sorry, hope that this helps.
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bcb1200
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My sources for bands 31/34 taking at least a year to show up are: -My LLMD -Another LLMD I know
The following sources:
WESTERN BLOT
-Reflects antibody response to specific Bb antigens
-Different sensitivities and specificities of the bands
-Some bands are potentially seen in different bacteria-``nonspecific bands''
-Some bands are specific to spirochetes
-Some bands are specific to Bb Specific: 18, 23-25, 28, 31, 34, 37, 39, 58, 83 & 93
-Spirochetes in general: 41 (flagellum)
-First immune response if present is usually 41 and 23 KD bands
-Response to the 31 KD proteins is not usually seen for a year after initial infection
"The starred bands are: 23-25, 31, 34, 39, 83-93, and 41. This means the test yields less than or equal to 4% false positives using these criteria. This test with these criteria has a sensitivity of 72%, so it may miss 28% of positive patients. Bands 31 and 34 take a year to develop after infection. They are prominent in chronic Lyme and in re-bites. They may appear very quickly in re-bites."
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3134 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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