posted
How do you know that you are having a "herx" reaction? My daughter has been on meds for 2 1/2 months and has felt horrible the entire time she was on her medication. (She has had two periods of coming off the meds in which she felt great!)
Can she be having a "herx" reaction this entire time? or just feeling sick on the meds?
I really dont understand the differnce?
Posts: 17 | From Florida | Registered: Aug 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Feeling horrible is just part of dealing with lyme. But, yes, it is possible to "herx" the entire time. It's hard to tell the difference but the feeling horrible is so often about toxic overload that the same things that help a herx also help the feeling horrible part.
Liver support, good nutrition, aggressive rest but also gentle non-aerobic exercise as possible.
The meds used really do make people feel awful most of the time. But, lyme has to be addressed. She should let her LLMD know - and ask what else might be done to make this easier. But it's also important to be realistic. Lyme makes people feel awful. So does treatment.
I hope she can find some relief and that her treatment goes well. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- "Herx 101" -------------
Lyme is caused by the gram-negative bacteria, BORRELIA b. - that is what is known as a SPIROCHETE, a cork-screw shaped bacteria that can sort of spring where ever it wants, not needed the blood stream for transport.
Spirochetes are particularly rough bacteria and they can take many forms to evade detection and resist treatment.
When spirochetes get irritated they emit toxins. To begin with, Borrelia b. is a very toxic infection. But irritate it and it spews forth even more toxic junk into our bodies.
So, our bodies are loaded with toxins and our liver and kidneys are overwhelmed. One reason why LIVER SUPPORT is vital to treatment.
To spirochetes, irritation to them can be nearly anything. It can be strong medicine, too much activity, too much heat, too much noise or light, etc.
That is why lyme patients feel so awful so much of the time. Even a little vibration will irritate spirochetes. Too much heat, too much movement.
Still the herxheimer reaction - from "chemical assault" (even if from a strong herb) - is very real.
The Herxheimer reaction (also known as Jarisch-Herxheimer or Herx) occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as bacteria (typically Spirochetal bacteria) die, due to antibiotic treatment or rapid detoxification.
Typically the death of these bacteria and the associated release of endotoxins occurs faster than the body can remove the toxins via the natural detoxification process performed by the kidneys and liver.
It is manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgia (muscle pain), and exacerbation of skin lesions.
Duration in syphilis is normally only a few hours but can be much longer, up to months or years, for other diseases, especially Lyme Disease. The intensity of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation present.
The Herxheimer reaction has shown an increase in inflammatory cytokines during the period of exacerbation, including tumor necrosis factor alpha, interleukin-6 and interleukin-8.[1][2]
The reaction is also seen in other diseases, such as borreliosis (Lyme disease[3][4] and tick-borne relapsing fever[5]), bartonellosis, brucellosis, typhoid fever, Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, and trichinellosis, Q fever, and cat scratch disease.[6][7]
Especially note herxheimer abtracts with Leptospirosis, another spirochetal infection.
==========================
Syphilis and Lyme are both spirochetal infections. Each can mimic many other diseases and each are very tricky to treat.
Syphilis has 23 genes where Lyme has over 250. Borrelia can also insert its DNA into that of a host. Mitochrondial damage is another whole topic.
GiGi Posted this From Scott's notes of recent Lyme Conference:
Dr. K believes that comparing Lyme disease to syphilis is misleading.
** Syphilis has 23 genes where Lyme has over 250. **
It is like comparing "cabbage with a dog". Borrelia is a far more evolved organism.
He posed the question, "What if these bugs could exchange their DNA such that the gene responsible for producing a certain toxin was transferred to harmless bacteria in the oral cavity or in normal gut flora."
It becomes clear that these microbes are highly intelligent.
(GiGi / Scott) ----------------
The original quote is probably at one of these two sites:
It's very important to have this book as a reference tool for self-care and support measures. It answers so many questions in detail that is impossible here on the forum.
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
In the beginning I felt horrible for two months but I started to see the light at the end of the tunnel in about two weeks. Lyme has a 28 day cycle so once every four weeks I would feel much worse with an increase in symptoms. Then I would feel better.
I read if you don't get progressively better than the meds are not working and you need to change them or you are having a reaction to the meds (check side effects), or you need to address the co-infections. Some people that are really sick seem to take a lot longer to get the infection under control and herx for months and even years.
In the case of bartonella it is a bit different because the cycle is much shorter so I felt bad for a couple of months and then slowly crawled out of it.
It is really hard to understand the difference, what is herxing and what is side effects. I treated lyme first, not knowing I also had bartonella. I felt much better and then began to deteriorate so I quit abx thinking the drugs were responsible, as my symptoms could have been side effects. It turned out my bartonella was coming out. The drugs I took for lyme did not affect bart.
So my suggestion would be to check for co-infections by symptoms, not tests. Try different abx to see how she responds.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
I herxed all the time. I couldn't handle antibiotics.
It turned out that I simply wasn't detoxing. Herxes took a couple weeks to come out of, and when I was "out" of them I still felt real sick.
I am one that advocates that detox is as important as the antibiotics themselves.
Trying to figure out how to detox was the puzzle. Typical detox supplements helped, but didn't make the difference I needed.
I felt toxic all the time, and many doctors would dismiss my feelings of toxicity.
The feelings of being toxic were as real as they felt. Often when people asked how I felt, my response would be "toxic".
It's something you might want to look into, but it may be a subject your practitioner may know little about. I find that an LLNDs are usually more knowledgeable about this subject.
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
It seems like your daughter could be experiencing a reaction to the medication or she could be dealing with toxins from die-off. Since you've written in a previous thread that she has been on numerous abx over a short time and has been sick the whole time, seems unlikely that she is having a reaction to all the medications. I'm not a doctor though and I don't know the history of her meds so I wouldn't rule out a reaction to one or more medications as part of the picture. In my opinion though, her symptoms are probably related to die-off.
It is not unusual for one to feel better while off antibiotics. While on abx, often more die-off is created than the body can deal with, especially early in treatment. When off abx for awhile, the body can finally clear out some of the toxins.
Dealing with inflammation is very helpful during a herx because die-off creates inflammatory cytokines which cause many of the symptoms associated with a herxheimer reaction. There are many supplements and herbs that can help. You will find several lists in the archives.
You may want to try some of the detox methods listed in that thread to see if they help your daughter.
I herxed non-stop for the first 2+ years of treatment. I have several of the genetic issues + was full of pathogens. If one continually herxes, it's important to consider adding significant detox support. With some of the genetic issues, the theory is that if you don't use specific techniques to get rid of the toxins, you will not feel better because the toxins stay in the body and disrupt hormones which causes a lot of symptoms.
Terry I'm not a doctor
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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