Topic: How do we provoke our immune systems into "seeing" infection?
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
I think this is why a lot of people stay sick.
Somewhere along the way I feel like my immune system stopped participating in the fight. That is why I am still sick. I think. I don't get fevers or colds or flus, I don't have cyclical herxes/flares, just feel bad all the time.
How do we get the immune system to "see" and participate? Transfer Factor LymPlus and viruses, LDN? homeopathy might be an option...that is a provoke for sure.
Thoughts?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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seekhelp
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posted
Homeopathic remedies seem to do this for me. Deseret Biologicals LYM threw me for a real ride!
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- First, we have to better understand the science of the borrelia spirochete in all its forms, stages, cycles, circumstances and adaptogenic abilities - and how the more than 300 different strains vary.
Borrelia can hide - and disable parts of our immune system. We can just fight harder, we have to fight smarter. We have to become more stealth like, ourselves.
Researcher Eva Sapi has some fascinating observations. It's not just the spirochete: Borrelia b. has many forms and, within those, dozens more: --------------
posted
I would agree with seekhelp, homeopathics might help. That's the basic concept behind photon/Bionic 880/PE1 therapy.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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CD57
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posted
I'll investigate Deseret then...anyone know if Deseret can be taken continuously?
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BoxerMom
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Member # 25251
posted
Exercise.
I had a hyperactive and dysfunctional immune system when I began treatment. My CD-57 was crazy high (don't remember the number). My doctor's explanation was that my immune system was in overdrive but making faulty cells.
I began the Burrascano exercise program 3 months ago. For the first two months, every session made me herx. Often for the rest of the day.
Now, no herxing after exercise, but I am feeling a ton better overall. I even have less herxing on antibiotics.
My CD-57 is down to 87. No more hyperdrive. And I'm sure it was the immune response that was giving me herxes.
This is one of the best things I've done during treatment.
I do NOT have the post-exertional fatigue that some people get. I'm sure you would have to go very slowly if that's part of your symptom picture.
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
BoxerMom, your CD57 is LOW when you are sick and high when you become well.
I believe the more positive you test, the more effective your immune system is working making antibodies against the disease. I tested CDC positive when I felt well, as far as Bb symptoms.
I tested negative for bartonella when I was in the pits of it.
I take everything I can to support my immune system. I have tried it all. I think the supplements probably help.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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bcb1200
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Just started my Exercise routine monday. Been putting it off, but my LLMD says I need to start.
Dr. B says you WILL NOT get well unless you exercise.
-------------------- Bite date ? 2/10 symptoms began 5/10 dx'd, after 3 months numerous test and doctors
IgM Igenex +/CDC + + 23/25, 30, 31, 34, 41, 83/93
Currently on:
Currently at around 95% +/- most days. Posts: 3134 | From Massachusetts | Registered: May 2010
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posted
Not sure about activating the immune system. Some of the problem with lyme is that the immune system knows it is there and is creating an inflammatory environment, but the bugs escape by cysting, antigenic variation, hiding in sites that aren't reached by antibiotics or immune system. And it is coming to be recognized that the immune response creates some of the damage, while failing to control the disease. Very clever bug.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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BoxerMom
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Member # 25251
posted
nefferdun - Thanks for the correction.
If your CD-57 is high and within range, you have a healthy cell count. If your count is crazy high out of range (as mine was), you have a hyperactive and dysfunctional immune system. This happens in HIV, as well. Some speculate that this could indicate a tendency toward autoimmunity.
My results were analyzed by Dr. S, whose research and clinical observations led to the S. CD-57 Scale.
If you feel he is mistaken, please take it up with him.
I felt like cr** and was nearly disabled when my CD-57 was high. Now that it's low, I feel pretty good. I'm hoping for normal at some point in the future.
As for Lyme and co-infection testing, I was also sero-negative when at my worst. I had no antibodies to speak of.
CD57
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Member # 11749
posted
Boxermom did you do the weight lifting that Dr B talks about? I am not familiar with his "program"...could you elaborate?
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- CD57, here's the exercise detail from Dr B: -------------------------------------
Treatment Guidelines, 16th edition, October, 2008 Joseph J. Burrascano, Jr., M.D.
Page 20:
. . . If treatment can be continued long term, then a remarkable degree of recovery is possible.
However, attention must be paid to all treatment modalities for such a recovery - not only antibiotics, but rehab and exercise programs, nutritional supplements, enforced rest, low carbohydrate, high fiber diets, attention to food sensitivities, avoidance of stress, abstinence from caffeine and alcohol, and absolutely no immunosuppressants, even local doses of steroids (intra-articular injections, for example). . . .
� Page 27 for SUPPORTIVE THERAPY & the CERTAIN ABSOLUTE RULES
Page 31:
LYME DISEASE REHABILITATION
Despite antibiotic treatments, patients will NOT return to normal unless they exercise, so therefore an aggressive rehab program is absolutely necessary. It is a fact that a properly executed exercise program can actually go beyond the antibiotics in helping to clear the symptoms and to maintain a remission.
Although the scientific basis for the benefits of exercises is not known, there are several reasonable theories.
It is known that Bb will die if exposed to all but the tiniest oxygen concentrations. If an aggressive exercise program can increase tissue perfusion and oxygen levels, then this may play a role in what is being seen.
Also, during aggressive exercise, the core body temperature can rise above 102 degrees; it is known that B. burgdorferi is very heat sensitive. Perhaps it is the added tissue oxygenation, or higher body temperature, or the combination that weakens the Lyme Borrelia, and allows the antibiotics and our defenses to be more effective.
Regular exercise-related movements can help mobilize lymph and enhance circulation. In addition,there is now evidence that a carefully structured exercise program may benefit T-cell function: this function will depress for 12 to 24+ hours after exercise, but then rebound.
This T-cell depression is more pronounced after aerobics which is why aerobics are not allowed. The goal is to exercise intermittently, with exercise days separated by days of total rest, including an effort to have plenty of quality sleep.
The trick is to time the exercise days to take advantage of these rebounds. For an example, begin with an exercise day followed by 3 to 5 rest days; as stamina improves, then fewer rest days will be needed in between workouts.
However, because T-cell functions do fall for at least one day after aggressive exercises, be sure to never exercise two days in a row. Finally, an in intermittent exercise program, properly executed, may help to reset the HPA axis more towards normal.
On the following page is an exercise prescription that details these recommendations.
This program may begin with classical physical therapy if necessary. The physical therapy should involve massage, heat, ultrasound and simple range of motion exercises to relieve discomfort and promote better sleep and flexibility.
Ice (vasoconstriction) and electrical stimulation (muscle spasm and trauma) should not be used!
The program must evolve into a graded, ultimately strenuous exercise program that consists of a specific regimen of non-aerobic conditioning- see below.
Have the patient complete a gentle hour of prescribed exercise, then go home, have a hot bath or shower, than try to take a nap. Initially, patients will need this sleep, but as they recover, the exercise will energize them and then a nap will no longer be needed.
NOTE: a cardiac stress test may be necessary prior to exercising to ensure safety. -------------
Page 32:
LYME REHAB-PHYSICAL THERAPY PRESCRIPTION
. . . (there is a P.T. prescription all set to fill out here) . . .
Excerpt:
PROGRAM:
1. Aerobic exercises are NOT allowed, not even low impact variety, until the patient has recovered.
2. Conditioning: work to improve strength and reverse the poor conditioning that results from Lyme, through a whole-body exercise program, consisting of light calisthenics and/or resistance training, using light resistance and many repetitions.
This can be accomplished in exercise classes called "stretch and tone", or "body sculpture", or can be achieved in the gym with exercise machines or carefully with free weights (see cautions above).
3. Each session should last one hour. A gentle hour is preferable to a strenuous half-hour. If the patient is unable to continue for the whole hour, then decrease the intensity to allow him/her to do so.
4. Exercise no more often than every other day. The patient may need to start by exercising every 4th or 5th day initially, and as abilities improve, work out more often, but NEVER two days in a row. The nonexercise days should be spent resting.
5. This whole-body conditioning program is what is required to achieve wellness. A simple walking program will not work, and simply placing the patient on a treadmill or an exercise bike is not acceptable (except very briefly, as part of a warm-up), as aerobics can be damaging and must be avoided. . . .
Believe it or not, toxic free radical molecules and oxidation by-products are produced whenever you exercise. . . .
===================================
For some who can't lift weights due to carpal tunnel or other hand, wrist, elbow problems, there are other GOOD MOVES:
Tai Chi, Qi Gong, some kinds of Yoga and Pilates routines . . . strength training . . . walking . . . maybe slow biking . . . water movement (Tai Chi in water is very nice) . . . whatever brings you joy of movement while safely supporting your body. Do what you love. Dancing can be good. Just not at top speed. -
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Tricky Tickey
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posted
Our bodies were created with the ability to fight off anything, without interference. When we continually pollute our bodies with bad things, in excess, it causes malfunction. There's a balance in all things, of course, but anything in excess can be harmful.
The number one cause of malfunction is interference with the central nervous system. What controls & influences the central nervous sytstem? The spine. Each section affects different parts of our body.
When our spine is misaligned through accidents, birthing, or other activities, it creates pressure on that particular area, which decreases the ability of that part of the body to fully function normally thus causing symptoms.
How do I know? The proof is in the pudding....I didn't get better until I got intense chiropractic treatment at a Maximized Living doctor's office. Did I stop meds? No. Did I attempt to balance my diet? Yes.
-------------------- Early Disseminated LD- 2010. Currently doing acupuncture and yoga. Negative Igenex (IND & Pos Bands) ISSUES AFTER: Tendonitis, letter reversal, Low immune system. PREVENTION:SaltC,Iodine,Humaworm, Chiropractic. Posts: 1013 | From In a van down by the river. | Registered: Jun 2010
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BoxerMom
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posted
CD57 - Yes, I'm following Dr. B's guidelines, as Keebler posted.
I do 15-20 minutes on an elliptical trainer, at the lowest settings, just to warm up. My heartrate stays pretty low.
Then I do 30-40 minutes of weights. My YMCA has a rehab room, with weight machines that use bands for resistance instead of actual weights. I love these things! And as they are not popular with the guys who like free weights, the room is usually empty. It is heaven.
I try for more reps at lighter weights, usually 3 sets of 15 reps each. It took me about a month to work up to that. I do full-body weight training each session.
Sometimes, just for variety, I take a yoga or pool aerobics class, or swim some laps.
Like I said, for the first two months, I herxed after every weight session. I would get extremely fatigued and need to lie down, often for the rest of the day. Some air hunger. Now, no herxing after exercise. I just feel better. And I'm getting stronger quickly.
I don't work out when I'm tired, which is still fairly often. I average 2 days/week.
I agree with Dr. B as to the importance of exercise, at least in my case.
When I joined the Y, I got a free session with a trainer. You should have seen the look on his face when I said I didn't plan to do aerobic exercise! Then, I told him I eat a no-carb, high-fat diet. (Yay, Mepron.) I thought he was going to fall out of his chair.
I just kept saying I was on a doctor-prescribed rehab program. He was actually pretty cool.
posted
If you're meeting with a trainer, you could print out that page from Dr. B's guidelines that tell about what kinds of exercise Lyme patients should do. Though it would be fun to just see the look on his face when you tell him about it.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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CD57
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posted
I also don't have the post exertional fatigue and did a weight workout last night. Killer! Light reps and not very many of them.
I think I will rest 3 days and try again. Boxermom, your post is inspiring that you credit exercise with immune response and antibody production.
My LLMD told me my intensive workouts were most likely the reason I didnt have symptoms for so many years. Gotta get on the horse!
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BoxerMom
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posted
I was also quite athletic during many of my pre-diagnosis years. I'm sure all that great exercise and oxygen make a huge difference in my Lyme progression.
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