posted
After 4 years off and on oral antibiotics I finally got an IV last April. However, for about 4 months they didn't seem to do much, other than lower my WBC.
Finally I had a herx. I was encouraged, but the herx seems to be lasting quite a long time, and now my WBC is super low again. My doc wants me to stop the ABX for a while and see how my immune system responds. He's also concerned about the frequency and severity of my symptoms, so he suggested I start taking some herbals.
The only problem is he doesn't know much about herbals, so he didn't really know what to tell me. He said some of his patients take them and they seem to help. He suggested I start with Cats Claw, Burber, and Teasel root. But he said nothing about dosage, frequency, or even what they do.
I've done some searching on here and on-line in general. Cats Claw is easy enough to find (though not in the dosages recommended by Buhner), but I can't seem to find a good source of Burbur or Teasel root.
My questions are for those of you that use these herbals: 1) Where do you get them? Do you have to order them from the web or do local or chain stores carry them?
2) What dosage do you take? (How many mg or g? how many times a day?)
3) How long before you noticed a difference?
I am traveling out of the country at the end of the month so I want to get my immune system up, but not give myself a herx while in a different continent.
-------------------- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.+++ Diagnosed with Lyme in 2005. Suffered for years before that. Still treating/fighting it. Son diagnosed with Lyme and Babesia in 2007. Son diagnosed with Asperger's in 2011. Posts: 40 | From Maryland | Registered: Jun 2008
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ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
Hi Jbiology,
With cats claw, you would need to start with one a day, then 2 a day [split]etc and build up that way, so it would take a while anyway to get to high dosage. I have in the past used samento, the TOA-free form of CC, but have just started some CC in capsule form myself.
Burbur is a Nutramedix product from the Cowden protocol and Cowden Condensed [the latter is the more recent] and is used to help you to detox and feel better when you Herx: usually 8 drops several times a day, more often in a Herx. It is built in to those protocols and you can read more about it by googling Nutramedix + Burbur. I didn't notice anything obvious when I tried this. Take the Burbur at least 30 minutes apart from antimicrobials.
In USA, you can get teasel root from [URL=http://www.ladybarbara.net] and read a lot about it on her site....as I am in UK, I got mine from somewhere else.
I am about to restart teasel and must caution you to start VERY slowly on one drop a day only, as it can have a powerful reaction/Herx. When I started before, I certainly knew it and only stopped it because I was going away, so didn't want to Herx. It is not usually used in high dosage and some never take more than 3 drops daily, in divided doses, so is v. cheap.
It is supposed to help drive out the deeply buried infection into the bloodstream for the body/other antimicrobials to get rid of it; also recommended for muscle/arthritic side of the illness. Some people report no help from it, but others seem to be very positive, so it's probably worth a go and sticking with for a while, as it is supposed to be a good adjunct to other treatments.
If I were you, I would start the herbs one at a time to avoid a big reaction and to be able to isolate their actions; perhaps starting with the burbur, then after a few days/a week the cat's claw [low dose], adding ONE DROP of the teasel when established on the other 2. If you order the teasel from Lady B, I expect you could ask her to advise you how to start using all 3 herbs, as I have just judged by what I have read and experienced.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Sorry I don't have energy to answer all your questions. If you can, I suggest consulting with an ILADS-educated LL ND. Otherwise you could be trying this and that for years and years with minimal or no progress.
You need someone who has years of training and experience with all the different herbs - thousands of them - and who is familiar with ILADS guidelines, even if they are not used, per se. It's not as simple as it sounds, by any means. And even two people with what seems like the same cold may need very different combinations of herbs.
The herbs suggested to you have some good properties but, I have not seen great success with any of them.
I do see you have read Buhner - I assure you the dosages he recommends are important. But, as Carry so wisely suggests - see the end of that note above - start very low and slow with whatever you do.
I've not had the luck with those mentioned but I will say that the regular cat's claw worked far better than the TOA-free. Herb Pharm Cat's Claw tincture was a nice help to calm down my nervous system. I see it as adjunct, though.
I had no effect from Teasel. Those who do, though, really notice improvement and those who don't seem to not really notice much of anything. So, if you don't notice good signs fairly soon, this may not be for you.
You can find many berberine containing herbs such as coptis and barberry that are helpful.
It need not be the brand "burbur" - with any combination, you can see what is in it and then explore other options and formulas. Nutramedix Burbur is an extract produced from the leaves of Desmodium molliculum. I found that worked better for me as a capsule or in powder formula with other herbs.
By reading through the articles and books below you can get a sense of the complexity. My lists starts with ILADS guidelines and a couple other LLMDs works, but each one also lists supplements.
Then, moving on down the list, you will find a couple complementary approaches that may not pivot on antibiotics but even many LL NDs use them at times.
If you want to start with just herbal, although very different, I suggest reading both Zhang and Buhner. Zhang, of course, though will have you smelling of garlic and with traveling over the holidays, not the most desirable.
Andgrographis has helped me the most but others don't always have the same experience. With travel in mind, it does increase tiredness and the need to empty bladder frequently, though.
Topic: How to find an ILADS-educated LL ND (naturopathic doctor), L.Ac. (acupuncturist), etc.
Includes how to find an ILADS-educated LL ND, a L.Ac. (Acupuncturist), a doctor of Oriental Medicine (O.M.D.), or a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine (D.Ay.), certified herbalists or nutritionists, etc. DO, DC
Includes many articles and books on complementary / integrative methods - & RIFE links.
BODY WORK links are also included. -
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ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
By the way, you can read more about the teasel on the thread on cats claw and sacha jergon,
Note -- The document is 81 pages long so it may take a couple of minutes to load. -
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- One of the easiest for me has been Olive Leaf Extract (OLE). For travel, this might be one that is most steady for you and most adaptable.
I found that OLE neither wired me (as allicin) nor sedated me (as andrographis). I felt better with OLE (although it was not enough alone for a winning ticket).
The Seagate OLE site has a nasal spray, too, very helpful this time of the year.
Still, always remember Carry's excellent advice regarding how to start ANY supplement: go slowly with a low dose. Start one thing at a time. -
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
-------------- An Olive Leaf formula (that contains Terminalia chebula):
My ND (naturopathic doctor) recommended MYROLEA B. Most naturopathic doctors and acupuncturists know about the Seven Forest formulas. As this is a combination formula, there are ingredients included to help the body with "clearing heat" and metabolizing toxins.
Myrolea-B (White Tiger) is a simple formulation of highly concentrated extracts from four Chinese herbs and one Western herb.
The Chinese herbs include forsythia and lonicera, two of the key ingredients of Ilex 15 (and the main antiviral ingredients of Yin Qiao Jie Du Pian), thus boosting the dosage of these essential ingredients.
Myrolea-B also contains the antiviral agents scute (huangqin) and terminalia (hezi). The Western herb in this formulation is olive leaf, which is one of the primary anti-viral herbs derived from the European tradition.
SHUANGHUANGLIAN: Potent Anti-Infection Combination of Lonicera, Forsythia, and Scute - by Subhuti Dharmananda, Ph.D., Director, Institute for Traditional Medicine - 2003
Shuanghuanglian (SHL for short) is a modern formula that was devised in the 1960s to treat a variety of infections. It is comprised of the alcohol-water extracts of three herbs: lonicera (shuanghua, often called jinyinhua), scute (huangqin), and forsythia (lianqiao). . . .
. . . One of the early preparations of the SHL was a tablet made of equal proportions of the extracts of each herb. This was used to treat leptospirosis, a disorder caused by a spirochete bacteria, related to the organism that causes Lyme disease.
Leptospirosis causes initial symptoms of fever and chills, headache, and muscle ache (especially in the shoulders); these are consistent with "flu-like" symptoms described for the onset of many acute infections.
In a 1971 report, the formula was described as being made in 500 mg tablets derived from 3.7 grams of the crude herbs, and being administered in doses of 10-15 tablets (thus, equivalent to the extract of 37-55 grams of herbs) every 6 hours (1), a very high dosage.
. . . Recently, Shuanghuanglian has been applied successfully to treatment of Coxsackie B3,
. . . The general indications for SHL . . . are "relieving the exterior syndrome, clearing away heat and toxic material," and its indications are "treatment of fever, cough, and sore throat that arise from wind-heat syndrome."
It is said to have "a good action in treating upper respiratory tract infection, tonsillitis, laryngopharyngitis, pneumonia, acute enteritis, viral dysentery, etc., when caused by virus or bacterial infection."
- full article at link above.
===================
Detail from two of the most reputable sources of OLE:
Die-off effects -- Olive leaf use causes the death of microbes. The liver, kidneys, intestines and skin are therefore tested to their limits, to deal with, and remove them. This causes Herxheimers Reaction, which can have a variety of symptoms, but basically makes one feel ill or under the weather due to a treatment's effect upon the body.
Thus, "die-off," referred to in medicine as the "HERXHEIMER reaction," occurs when the olive leaf components kills large numbers of harmful germs rather quickly. Then, the patient's membranes absorb toxic products from these dead microorganisms. . . .
See details at link for:
� Safety Precautions and � Known Drug Interactions
SEAGATE Olive Leaf Extract - also see their menu for all their OLE products, including nasal spray, personal spray, etc.
Excerpt:
Side Effects:
Olive leaves have been used safely for thousands of years. The only known side-effect is the possibility of a HERXHEIMER reaction, an allergic response caused by the rapid die-off of fungi that release toxins which may temporarily cause a brief allergic reaction, lasting for several days.
. . . Are there any contraindications with Olive Leaf Extract?
No contraindications with other drugs have been observed.
�� However, Olive Leaf Extract should not be taken with antibiotics produced from yeast / fungus or along with additional amino acids other than those received in your everyday foods. They might cross out each other's effectiveness. . . .
[poster's note: this really is not much of a concern these days as most drugs are synthesized. However, just keep that on your radar.]
- Full article at link above.
===================================
PROBIOTICS still need to be taken. Take several hours away from OLE (and from all supplements and also from Rx). OLE will negate probiotics if taken too closely together. -
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-------------------- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.+++ Diagnosed with Lyme in 2005. Suffered for years before that. Still treating/fighting it. Son diagnosed with Lyme and Babesia in 2007. Son diagnosed with Asperger's in 2011. Posts: 40 | From Maryland | Registered: Jun 2008
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