lpkayak
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Member # 5230
posted
some others said they would like a buhner thread so i will start it here if it is ok. i guess admin will come along if i am breaking a rule or something. i've been away for awhile. i'm gonna repeat a basic overview of my first year of buhner herb tx below. maybe others can do the same and we can get a conversation going here ONLY(well MOSTLY) about the herbs. i'm looking forward to it. thanks. lp
MY FIRST YEAR ON BUHNER HERBS
i really need buhner support...i am at a year and have a lot to share...it sure was the best thing i had done for awhile...but now some wierd things are happening
every 4 months i go off for a short time to see what sx come back
i've tried to figure out how to go to the buhner site but i really can't do it
so-i have been taking a tea of red root, sarsa, stephania and knotweed for a year. i can't take catsclaw cuz i take meds for reflux
i started very slowly and gradually built up strenght of tea and amount i take ...i am at full strenght but less than 3-4 four ounces a day now
at first i clearly herxed for 3 days and then leveled off...mostly specific pain i remembered from earlier
also fatigue
at one point i got tons of lumps in thoracic area-esp under arms---some so hard i couldn't sleep---felt like many golf balls
3 times rifampin took them away and 3 times they came back worse when i stopped it
i have always tested neg for bart
the herbs took the lumps away. after 4 months they came back in a few days. after 8 months they came back in a week.
after 12 months i was off the herbs for almost a month because i was moving. i felt fatigue...but no lumps came back for 3 weeks. at about 3 1/2 weeks i think i started to feel two small lumps coming back. it motivated me to get organized and get back on tea.
but i am now having some other wierd sx -patches of nevre pain in soft tissue-that i never had before so i am getting really concerned that the herbs might be doing the same thing as the abx (putting bugs into cyst form where they reproduce so when you stop the herbs more of them come back than before. god i hope not)
anyway---i would really like a place to go to talk to buhner literate and experenced ppl...could this be it?
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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posted
above i said:
"at about 3 1/2 weeks i think i started to feel two small lumps coming back."
i wasn't sure but after last night i am sure. i have wo small hard lumps under my right arm and i can't sleep on that side. so i will be very agressive about getting back on full dose of herbs and hope they will go away like they did before.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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posted
above i said:
"i am getting really concerned that the herbs might be doing the same thing as the abx (putting bugs into cyst form where they reproduce so when you stop the herbs more of them come back than before.)"
this statement is probably worth a thread of its own...but for now...does anyone remember the info from dr alan macdonald about this?
i was at a conference and saw a live spirokete go into cyst form...reproduce...and when it came out of cyst form there were 3 or 4 of them.
i'm asking because sometimes when i read stuff on lymenet...i think..."but thats common knowlwdge-we all know that" and then i realize how old i am and how long i've been around and how many conferences i've been too and how many conversations i've had with the great llmd docs and scientists and i realize maybe it is not common knowledge for many new ppl.
so i think this is major, basic knowledge about Bb and it helps explain why it is so hard to get rid of the bug and why pulsing is important and the thing about "being addicted to abx"
my llmd suggested i start the buhner herbs a year ago because abx made my sx go away but as soon as i got off abx they came back-usually worse. he thought it was because of the Bb reproducing when put into cyst form and that maybe that wouldn't happen with herbs.
so...if it is happening now to me with herbs...that is NOT good news
anyway...please lets talk about this. thanks.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
Topic: How to find a LL ND (naturopathic doctor), acupuncturist, etc.
Includes how to find an ILADS-educated LL ND, an Acupuncturist, a doctor of Oriental Medicine (O.M.D.), or a doctor of Ayurvedic Medicine (D.Ay.), certified herbalists or nutritionists, etc.
Includes many articles and books on complementary / integrative methods - & RIFE links.
BODY WORK links are also included. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
My child is just starting on the Buhner's protocol, so I can't really offer you much in knowledge. I'm looking forward to reading the posts of those, like yourself, who have done quite well with the herbs.
I've heard that once one infection is beaten down, the symptoms of the others may surface. Do you think that may be what is happening?
Have you tried using grapefruit seed extract for the cyst form? Many people have stated they've had success with that.
I hope those who have used Buhner's longterm will post their experiences and suggestions--pro and con--and keep this thread going. I'd love to see a Buhner's thread as long as the AI thread!
Using both modalities might be the answer we've all been looking for!
Thanks for starting this thread.
Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009
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Keebler
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posted
- aMomWithHope,
I think you will find more expansive posts at Buhner's site - and it's best there being that he looks over that and will answer questions himself. Others post of their experiences there, too.
My sense here (at LN) is that there are very few (maybe 3 - 4 people) who use solely that full protocol - but many who alter it, and mix and match. That changes everything. That can still work, though, but is best under the direction of a LLMD or a LL ND.
You can search Buhner's forum for GSE or "cyst" to see what he has to say about that. It's so important to read directly from the author first and from questions where he, himself, can reply.
You can also post your own questions to him. If we want to know what he thinks or says, it is best to ask him directly and then balance it with patient experiences. We are very fortunate to have someone like him who keeps up with their website.
"Healing Lyme" alone, is one of the most thorough works I've encountered and I've been reading about herbs for nearly 20 years. His other books are also of help but "Healing Lyme" offers 253 pages of great detail - even for those who are not considering that protocol.
Good luck. -
[ 11-01-2010, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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lpkayak
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posted
thanks keebler-i wish i could figure out how to use his website-i've tried so many times and i just have a block or something
maybe that will be my goal for the winter-i'd also like to be able to use bransfields site
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
Topic: How to find a LL ND (naturopathic doctor), LL L.Ac. (acupuncturist), etc.
- Includes many search sites to learn more about herbal and nutritional supplements. The ITM link and that for The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook, as well as Connor's acupuncture site, are all excellent for providing tons of detail.
============================
One LL L.Ac. who is extremely familiar with Buhner's work:
[ 11-02-2010, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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lpkayak
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posted
keebler your info has helped me so much for so many years. i'm really glad you are a part of this group.
you mentioned money and i know i buy the whole herbs and make tea -i don't buy the supps or pills or tinctures. when i have used them besides being so expensive they didn't seem to work any where near as well as the tea. maybe its just an absorbtion thing. but the tea only costs me a few hundred a year...and works so good.
please excuse my typos and spelling etc. i'm having a really ruff day and took more pain meds than usual. i know i won't be able to drive for two days now. but a few hours ago i couldn't walk-even with a cane so i had to do something.
WORMS...PARASITES!!! does anyone on buhner herbs see them coming thru when you up your dose or strength? my tea is :red root, stephania, sarsaparilla and jap knotweed. maybe gayle will know if these are getting parasites as well as lyme and coinfects...
thanks for keeping this thread going.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
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posted
- Medical abstracts are very above board about Gupta. There is nothing morally depraved about it at all. There may be difference of opinion but I see no moral crime there. There are some valid points to consider. I'm not sure I'd go with it but that does not matter. It has a right to have a link off in the corner for those who want more detail.
The ad is 1.5 inches square. It doesn't flash. It's not irritating. And, that particular address at Planet Thrive also has other links unrelated to Gupta but relevant for anyone with neurolyme. I learned a few new things from other links at the Gupta address.
But, if someone does not want to go to Buhner's address, then avoid. But discussion cannot exist unless the material has been read and studied. This is not at all about Gupta. It's about the Buhner site. Not Gupta's. They are not the same. We can't call this a Buhner discussion thread if the author's work has not been studied in detail (and, again, it's not about Gupta).
It's like me complaining about Amazon here and discounting all the LymeNet or ILADS posts here that may contain good material but I might see morally damaged by the presence of an Amazon ad. -
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Keebler
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Natural Healing for Lyme Disease -
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lpkayak
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posted
hey guys-lets try to stay with the the buhner program.
i hate it at lyme conferences where they have all the booths and some ppl selling total crap. i've been sucked i myself thinking it is at a lymeconference so it must be good...
we could start another thread about marketing somewhere else-but here i really wantedto focus on the BUHNER PROTOCOL
all the discussion up there about marketing is really too much for me to rad when what i care about is the protocol
maybe youcould delete some of the irrelevant stuff so others don't get bogged down by it
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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posted
keebler-i guess you don't pm. could you email me? [email protected]
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Hoosiers51
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posted
The whole reason I wrote all that (edit: I deleted it all) was so that people would be warned when going to Planet Thrive that "mind/body" products are going to be marketed to them, under the guise of informational articles.
I would have liked a warning, so I realized that going into the site, and I could have been prepared for it. I know some people, that that kind of marketing confuses them so much that they start questioning everything they are doing. So it's good to go into a situation knowing clearly when you will be targeted by marketing and when you won't, so you can mentally prepare. (most sites use disclaimers following articles like that, but I didn't see any at Planet Thrive)
Because when people are offering you a reason for what's wrong, followed by a cure, and you are as sick as we are, that sets into action a series of cascading emotions, questions, doubts, thoughts, decisions....and that can be overwhelming. For me, it is.
That is one reason Lymenet is strict about selling things on the site, and why Lyme Friends pays to remove ads (the founders felt it was confusing and misleading to the members).
Also, keep in mind that Lymenet and Lyme Friends are both run solely by donations. I am thinking that Planet Thrive is probably getting paid for the ads, and also they are probably paid for every Amygdala Program article they publish. They may not be, so if not, please someone correct me.
I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. Only saying that by nature of what's going on, it will give the site a different feel. And some people try to avoid that kind of thing because it is too much for them, or just because they don't like it (I fluctuate between the two, based on how sensitive/desperate/foggy I am).
Either there isn't much traffic on this thread, or no one cares about this mini-debate. I was hopng more people would agree with me, then maybe Planet Thrive would think about changing their site, if there were enough complaints.
Because as it is, I don't feel comfortable referring people to that website. That's kinda the whole dilemma with learning about Buhner. I only tell people about the book.
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Okay, I see lpkayak's point. I will delete everything except my last post, so that this thread can be all about Buhner.
If you really want me to delete my last post too, I will, because I don't want to derail everything. Then I'll just paste what I wrote, and start a new thread.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Keebler
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posted
- lpkayak,
I'm sorry. I just don't have the energy to be able to think well enough to answer any PMs questions. With posts here, I can see the questions and if I don't answer, others will. Private PMs are just way more energy than I can manage. Sorry.
Hoosiers,
you'll see many posts over at the Gupta site, some disagree and some agree. THAT's the best place to voice your objections, right at the source. But, it's also interesting to read the research as even premier lyme researchers B. Fallon and J. Nields have written about amygdala damage from lyme.
Whether I, or we, agree or disagree with Gupta's work, to mix it up Gupta's site and say that it's part of Buhner's work is misleading to those who really want to focus just on Buhner's work. Gupta's ideas are not at all Buhner's. There is no connection. They each just have a site address in the same neighborhood, so to speak, at the cooperative called Planet Thrive. Each author is separate and independent from the others. -
[ 11-06-2010, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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posted
ugh . . . I'm interested in others' experiences with Buhner too. Anyone else tried it and wanna share?
Posts: 707 | From Colorado | Registered: Jul 2010
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kidsgotlyme
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Member # 23691
posted
jlp38- We haven't started it here yet, but I would like to try it.
I'm wondering if anybody else has done the tea besides lpkayak.
Trying to figure out the best way to go.
-------------------- symptoms since 1993 that I can remember. 9/2018 diagnosed with Borellia, Babesia Duncani, and Bartonella Hensalae thru DNA Connections. Posts: 1470 | From Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2009
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Keebler
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posted
- i've not tried the tea. I am seriously dyslexic with figuring that out.
For a couple months, I found good the LB Core capsules from this LL L.Ac. who is familiar with Buhner's work:
I also use the Andrographis from Planetary Formulas (from www.vitacost.com ) and Herb Pharm Cat's Claw tincture.
Andrographis is the main thing I've taken for about 1.5 years, with a few month break last summer during which I lost a lot of ground. I have to stay at the top dose for andrographis extract. The raw herb is not strong enough for me. -
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Sorry, didn't delete everything earlier because I had something come up. Should be fine now.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
I have just started on his core protocol ( only a couple of weeks in ) but up to 3 cat's claw 3 Xday and 2 Knotweed 3 Xday.
I am building up slowly.
I had a pretty strong increase in symptoms for a few days and seem to be feeling better already which I was not expecting so soon.
Very happy with it so far.
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lpkayak
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posted
"I am seriously dyslexic with figuring that out"
i was overwhelmed at first...i had a print out from my llmd, 4 big bags of raw herbs and directions to measure by grams...forget it
esp since cognitive problems were major(the tea has helped me so much cognitively)
anyway...i plan a morning to organize the herbs...and it usually ends up taking less than 2 hrs...each time i do it it is easier and quicker...it helps to have plastic baggies and markers ready
i do one at a time---pour it all out on table...they are all 1 pound.
then i just cut it in half then in half again. then i take each 1/4 pound and divide it into 5 and figure each is about 10 grams...i use a knife or a ruler or even my hands. i don't think it is so impt for it to be exact. the idea is you are going to make your tea weaker at first and then gradually make it stronger...
in the beginning i make a batch of each herb separately and then start taking it a teaspoon at a time...working up to an ounce or so. i mix it in tea or juice. (be careful of yeast with juice) i know someone who puts it in ceareal or coffee. i guess some can handle it alone. it gets harder as you work up to stronger dose. kinda bitter.
but i am someone who has never been able to take any liquid meds with out vomiting...no cough syrup or anything...but this works so well for me and gave me my life back that somehow i do it
getting back to fixing the herbs. when i have my Piles of herb i just put each in a baggie and mark how many grams it is . at first you need 10 gram piles...but later you can make them bigger when you have built up to stronger dose
then i put all the baggies i am not using that time back into the original herb bag---it is labled
and i keep all 4 -5 herb bags in a small, sturdy tote with a top on it.
i don't like that i am storing in plastic and wish it was glass...but for now this works for me.
i tried to order the correct scale but wasn't able to figure it out.
and the times i used my food scale...it didn't seem to work very well.
i'm gonna post this so i don't lose it and see if i can come back with some more info from the handout.
REMEMBER I'M NOT A DOC...JUST DOING WHAT MY DOC SAYS BASED ON BUHNERS BOOK then i put all the baggies i didn't use this
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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posted
BELOW IS A COMBO OF WHAT MY LLMD TOLD ME AND HINTS I HAVE LEARNED BY DOING IT. REMEMBER I AM NOT A DOC AND USE BUHNER'S BOOK OR BUHNER HIMSELF AS RESOURCES. GOOD LUCK.
Lyme Tea-adapted from core Buhner protocol
This is a anti-biotic/immune boosting medicinal herbal tea formula. It is all based on Stephen Buhner�s Healing Lyme book and his recommendations to treat chronic infectious/tick bourne illness/lyme disease. Herbal healing is slower, but perhaps more permanent, so be patient in terms of seeing results.
The tea:
One gallon water
Japanese knotweed 10 g (increase dose slowly, 10 g per week or so, up to 40g) Stephania 20g (increase slowly up to 80g) Sarsaparilla 10g (increase slowly to 40g) Cats Claw 15g (increase slowly to 60g) Red Root 10g
Andrographis with 5g as starting dose, working up to 30g (use initially for 2-3 mos.
Some have removed this later and found better results (?))
Optional:
Artemesia Annua 5 g (increase slowly to 40g) Use if suspicion of Babesia
Use a postal scale, there are inexpensive ones here: http://www.oldwilknottscales.com An option is the MyWeigh Triton T2 with the calibration weight
Combine herbs and water in a large stockpot. Bring to boil, then lower heat and simmer 1-2 hours, then strain and pour into a wine bottle, glass bottle, or use an ice tea jug w/spigot and store in fridge.
Be sure you let tea cool before putting into glass or the glass may break.
General dosage guidelines: about 3-4 ounces 3 times a day. This is not so exact dosing. You can really go on symptoms, herxing, and symptom relief as far as dosage and so on.
Symptoms flare up bad (Herx)-reduce dose for a while
Not getting much progress-increase dosing.
Details on herbs:
Get cut and sifted, not powdered-lasts longer and tea is more palatable.
I use baggies (not sure if the plastic is a problem) but figuring out what 10 grams was, was difficult at first. (It comes by the pound-and I had trouble finding a scale with grams)
When I have it broken down into � lb-either by scale or by eye, I then break that � lb into 5 bags and figure they are each close to 10 grams. Once you are at higher doses and don�t have to break it down so much it is easier.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
thx for all that detail!
Posts: 707 | From Colorado | Registered: Jul 2010
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Just a note on the "plastic" baggies....my guess is that it's probably not as bad as you are imagining it to be with the plastic.
I recently did some research on plastic types, and food storage bags, as well as "plastic wrap", are actually one of the best kinds of plastics. They don't have BPA, phthalates, etc....like some other plastics do.
I still don't use them in the microwave, but for example, what you microwave Stouffer's in (the black trays) are a worse kind of plastic than the plastic bags and plastic wrap.
Water bottles are also bad. As are the linings of almost anything canned (excluding some Eden Organics brand and Native Forest coconut milk which both have no BPA).
I still try to use glass whenever possible, but I do use plastic baggies without worrying too much.
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lpkayak
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posted
thanks hoosiers...any thing that will lower my worry load is welcome!
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear Friends,
I was very impressed with Buhner's book, and started myself on his protocol back in 2006 before I found Lymenet.
Unfortunately, I developed seizures while on the herbs. I think it was an increase in Red Root, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I ended up unconscious twice and in the E/R twice, as these seizures were very bad.
Understandably, I discontinued that program.
I have had a few seizures since then, but they have been while I was sleeping and I can control them when awake by taking B 6.
I don't think the Buhner herbs are the source of whatever is going on in my brain that manifested as a seizure. However, it is a cautionary tale to increase SLOWLY.
Keep a very thorough diary every day of your symptoms and exactly what you're taking and any improvements, etc. This allowed me to locate what had changed and also the exact feeling I had prior to having a seizure, which lead to being able to turn them off before they took over.
Best,
Cass A
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lpkayak
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posted
excellent info: keep diary and ramp up slow!!!
i herxed like crazy in the beginning and every time i made the tea stronger-also in generl really impt to only add one thing at a time so you know where reactions come from
thanks cass
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Do you think Knotweed would cause tinnitus?
My child has been starting slowly on the protocol and was doing fine until we added the Knotweed--started at 5 drops twice a day, stopped for 2 days--tinnitus went away--restarted at 3 drops twice a day, had to stop--now at 1 drop but will have to stop again due to tinnitus!
Can't believe that only ONE drop would cause a reaction?!
If it is a herx, that is one thing, and we could probably continue through it, although she is frightened that the tinnitus is coming back.
I'm just concerned that it is damaging the ears or overtaxing the liver?
Anyone experience this with any of the herbs and with only ONE drop?
(FYI: She is still on abx, trying to get to the point where we can wean her off abx and just do herbs--wasn't having tinnitus on abx until adding in the Knotweed.)
Thanks!
Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009
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ukcarry
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posted
One note of caution about red root, which is a good lymph stimulant and cleanser: many people with Lyme and other chronic illnesses have hypercoagulation/'thick' blood and should avoid red root because it is a strong coagulant.
SB does warn not to take it if you are pregnant or on coagulant or anticoagulant medicines,
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- aMomWithHope:
Q: Do you think Knotweed would cause tinnitus?
Yes. It does for me. I've never used the tincture but this happens for me with the straight capsules. Several tries and the same thing.
Then got a formula capsule and it did it, too. Even starting with just ONE capsule. Within 30 minutes.
I've used all the other things in that formula before with no added tinnitus. After several tries, I set that aside for a while. But, I ran out of everything else and my mouth needs real help before a dental cleaning in about 10 days. So, I tried the full formula again and it is doing okay. Tinnitus is about the same.
WHY?
I've had similar reactions from supplements that are supposed to lower tinnitus, such as Ginkgo. For me, it sends it screeching to the moon. My guess is that it is too excitatory for some of us.
Your concern about liver or ototoxicity is warranted, as tinnitus can certainly be a sign of either. However, in my experience, I really get the sense that it's the action of more energy that is provided and my body just can't handle that without tinnitus increase.
I usually do not take alcohol tinctures, though, as the alcohol - yes, even one drop - can set off tinnitus. Usually. The Herb Pharm Cat's Claw tincture does not do that for me.
I don't know what the difference is in my finally being able to tolerate it.
Oh, now that I think about it - it's that age old adrenal revving, I think (in my case).
I have been taking a new adrenal supplement lately. Adaptocrine (by Apex). Although the ginseng in that has caused tinnitus in the past, it's such a balanced formula that I am doing just fine with this. My guess is the Holy Basil (Tulsi) is the key calming balance.
It could be that with that adrenal support, the excitatory action of knotweed does not rev my tinnitus as it did in the past.
I wonder if taking a calming herb to balance the energizing action of knotweed would help. Holy Basil or Skullcap (and that has to be tincture as it's the only way it really works) come to mind as calming.
This is where I got the LB Core Protocol that has finally started to work for me without tinnitus. He may have some suggestions for your daughter. ---------------------
posted
Wow, Keebler, interesting that you experienced the same as my daughter!
I will cut out the Knotweed for now and continue with the others in the protocol as well as introduce the remaining ones that treat the co-infections and see how it goes.
I hope she'll be able to tolerate the Knotweed eventually as it sounds like it might be one of the most important herbs to be taking.......
I plan on contacting the LL L.Ac. you mentioned--just need to get the $$$ together to do so!
Thanks for your help!
Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009
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Keebler
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posted
- He may be open to just a short question. Although is he very LL and Buhner-literate, I just have to wonder if anyone who has not gone through the adrenal dysfunction can really get it. My body just knows when I'm taking something that is supposed to give me energy if I just can't handle that. Rarely can I take any supplements that are to help increase circulation and energy in the brain.
Since tinnitus is also a sign of adrenal distress, I highly suspect this for some supplements that are supposed to be good for the liver and the brain. It could be, though, that the liver is working as hard as it can and added prompting, even if from a good supplement, might just be too much.
It's a veritable quandary.
I just remember that, this time around with the formula, I'm also taking Cryptolepis tincture. That is VERY calming to me and may be keeping the tinnitus from jumping up from the knotweed. The smilax in the formula is also calming.
Allicin / garlic capsules also increase tinnitus for me to unbearable levels. There could be a couple reasons for that, though as it contains salicylic acid, the very thing in aspirin that causes tinnitus.
I've not looked up knotweed but it might be interesting to see if it contains salicylic acid. That would explain a lot. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
. . . Knotweed contains a variety of compounds and active ingredients, including quercetin, salicylic acid (which is also found in aspirin) and lysine, . . . -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Interesting about the salicylic acid.........I wonder too now if that ingredient in the Knotweed is in fact what is causing her tinnitus.
I'll definitely try to support her adrenals too though since her reactions are so similar to yours.
Also, coincidentally, she started Cryptolepis this morning! I've added it for the Babs, but good to know that it has a calming effect too.
Perhaps once she has been on this for a while, I can try the Knotweed again. One day at a time.....
I should try and call him (LL L.Ac.) just to see what he'll say--charge or no charge for advice--
I do remember reading somewhere on here, I believe, that he gives blended tinctures, which I'm not too fond of--due to what we've just experienced--no way of knowing which herb would have been causing the problems if I hadn't been introducing them to her individually.
But still, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt to call him.......
Thanks again for so freely sharing your knowledge and experiences........you are a true gift to us here on Lymenet!
Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Added Cryptolepis to my daughter's protocol, was only on it for 4 days at 3 drops twice a day--she experienced increasing jaw/teeth pain which culminated on the 4th day as lockjaw--was locked for the whole morning!
With warm compresses, it finally released, but I stopped the Crypto--just in case it was the cause......
Anyone experience this reaction? I don't know if it was TMJ being aggravated by the Crypto "killing" Babs or inflammation of the trigeminal nerve--how would I know the difference?
I added this herb in as a Babs challenge--her LLMD has been reluctant to treat for Babs because her Bart is more prevalent--
yet I suspect that her 24/7 headache, muscle pains, and fatigue (all of which she has had for over 2 years now!) are actually due to Babs---
do you think the Crypto stirred up something, and this was a herx--I'm thinking it was....
I wonder now should I continue or hold off, i.e., continue Crypto so she gets through the herx?--
I added it back in today at only 1 drop twice a day, so we'll see over the next few days.....
Anyway, any thoughts or similar experiences would be appreciated!
Thanks!
Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009
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canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
hope,
I've been on 30 drops 3x's day of crypto.
I didn't experience what your daughter did... but babs isn't my main issue.
I only added crypto so that if babs reared its head while I'm treating Bart I'd be treating babs.
Buhner says treat co-infections and Lyme simultaneously.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
Has anyone done the really high doses of Herb Pharm 2:1 Eluethero tincture that he recommends?
He mentions a higher dose of 1/2 - 1 tsp, at least 2 times daily.
For maintenence, he recommends a weaker tincture at a lower dose.
I am just now starting those high doses of Eleuthero. I am mainly doing it to help my chronic fatigue and lack of energy.
Has anyone taken it for that, at those high doses, and what were the results?
Also, I switched from Planetary Herbals to Nature's Way Andographis, and I've been getting headaches daily. Also, it could be the Cat's Claw, because I had these same headaches when adding that.
Just wondering if anyone else had daily herx headaches on the protocol? I would be ever-so-thankful if they'd go away!
I'm not gonna try increased detox, because for me, that never helps these intense herx headaches. I normally just have to wait it out. But I am wondering if anyone else got this?
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- If something is causing a headache, I would stop it, or at least lower the dose. At a high dose, it may just be too much for you. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
I found 3 posts on Eleuthero in subject line, using search. That includes Canefan's from June 2010.
So I read those....so you guys can just feel free to add any more insight, if any, on top of that. Thanks. Just didn't want people to feel that had to repeat anything.
I came across the notion that these tinctures could be staining the teeth. My teeth have gotten some bad dark brown, patchy stains (not all over the tooth like cofee/smoking stains), that the dentist was able to get off.
I was thinking it was the antibotics, but now I'm wondering if it could be the tinctures I had been using longterm. Hmmmmmm. My tinctures are quite dark. Maybe I'll have to start using a straw, since I'm now taking so much Eleuthero on top of everything else.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
Keebler,
Hmmm, I did consider that. Thanks, you may be right.
I got this same "herx headache" when starting Cat's Claw, and it only lasted like 3-4 days. I think I'll wait another day or two, and if this new round of headaches continues, I may reduce doses.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
THE FOLLOWING IS FROM BRUSSELS-SHE PM'ED IT TO ME
Send To Brussels: Send Reply | New Private Message
Author Topic: Buhner Brussels LymeNet Contributor Member # 13480 posted 18 November, 2010 09:27 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Ipkayak, I wanted to post that in your Buhner thread, but I wonder if you would enjoy that or not, so I'm sending you a PM. You can copy-paste if you wish to put in the thread if you find useful. I talk about knotweed for others...
I don't come often to LN anymore, but as I have at least 3 full years of experience with Buhner's herbs, I wanted to write this: ---------------------
I haven't read everything in the thread, but I had done many of Buhner's herbs for about 3 years in the past.
I started in the end of 2005!! They helped me immensely, but I added other things SPECIALLY to help detoxing. And also for coinfections.
These are the 2 weak points in his proposed protocol, in my opinion (coinfections and thorough detox).
I haven't tried Cripto though. When I started, his book was new, and he hadn't proposed Cripto by then.
But I did take eleuthero, stephania, red root, all basic protocol herbs, teasel... Knotweed was one of the strongest for me, together with andrographis.
While I could stand andro sometimes, I barely could touch knotweed in any form, so strong it was for me. It clearly made me airy and felt not good in the beginning, even though I think I saw improvement.
I had tinitus after having tried the Salt-C protocol. It took me about a year to clear that problem. I believe hard herxes caused that, in my case...
I used knotweed more effectively by the end of the treatment (or in the middle, can't remember), but for a LIMITED time. I also did decoctions, mostly.
So I could control the exact amount. I put like a tiny bit on a whole pot of water and boiled it for a while, and that tiny bit (cut herb, the size of a peanut!!!) was enough to cause me herxes or strange symptoms with only a sip.
Knotweed is extremely powerful and in my opinion, should be taken very low doses at first. Try stephania instead. I had such more easy time with it. I loved stephania, it was in the end, my favorite Buhner's herb, I think.
Cats claw, the most useful, but it always made me herx badly, while stephania was wonderful. I improved without much suffering!!
When you feel better, then you can try to add the knotweed again. But in my case, I don't think I would ever take knotweed for long periods of time.
The only herb I used for very long was cats claw, in low dosages, no interruption for years literally! I guess I used it for about 2 whole years or so? Yes, daily!!!
I NEVER reached the highest levels of the protocol Buhner suggested because I could NEVER stand herxes. But nevertheless, I always improved up to remission a couple of times.
I took a lot of sarsa in the beginning, but in the end, I couldn't stand it either. It was funny because most people find it an easy herb...
During these 3 years I was on Buhner, REMISSION WAS SHORT LIVED (maximum 5 months, then return of few symptoms).
I guess if I sticked to herbs-mainly approach as I was doing, I would have been dependent of herbs forever. In my case. Or it would have taken me ages to be symptom free and keep symptom free without herbs.
The main reason, in my opinion, is that herbs are chemicals and therefore they act only on the physical body. And you need then constant supply, a bit like food.
Unless you are a special type of person and can use herbs in a different way some herbalists do (like Buhner himself if you read his other books). But that is not too simple, specially when one is too sick or weak ...
I feel that doing other parallel treatments BESIDES herbs (like homeopathy, acupuncture, AI, detoxing / chelation, some psycho work...) will increase your chances of a more 'permanent' remission.
Some of these treatments act on other 'levels' of the body (NOT the body-chemical level), like the energetic body or the 'mind' and they do help, in my opinion, to get the disease more thoroughly treated, if you see what I mean.
These treatments will try to correct your whole system (body, mind, energy) and make your body respond to the disease, so you don't need ETERNAL supply of these treatments.
It's very different to supply the body with simple chemicals (even though I find herbs amazing machines of chemical molecules).
I used herbs SPECIFIC for lyme and coinfections for about 3 years. Homeopathy for about 4 years (specific for lyme). Microcurrent for about 1 year or a bit more, but not every day.
But herbs, I used them EVERY SINGLE day for about 3 years specific for lyme disease or the nasty coinfectioins or parallel infections that emergy with lyme.
I consider herbs a BIG help, much more sophisticated than abx if you use in combination, but my dream was to be treatment free one day.
And I personally don't feel herbs alone can do that FOR CHRONIC LYME. At least, not for me. For other diseases, yes (colds, for example). But for chronic lyme, I think I needed more to my arsenal.
Anyway, if you feel this post is too way out of the topic Buhner, just tell me that I'll delete it. I am just writing my own experience with Buhner's herbs and other treatments. I was hopeful herbs alone could have taken me out of the disease as I always improved and even got to remission with herbs.
I see herbs today as a big help for reducing the bacterial load and for cleansing. But if you are aiming long term remission without treatment, you got to dig further, in my opinion.
I know some people who are happy with their symptom free life (or next to symptom free life) WHILE still on permanent treatment. If you are that type of person, why not going on with herbs? I guess it all depends on our expectations. ----
so for Buhner starters, get ready for herxes and add OTHER extra herbs/ products as binders. You'll need them. Always start VERY slow, add ONE herb at a time. Get informed about other alternatives for fighting coinfections. His herbs are not enough for coinfections (I haven't though tried the crypto), specially for bart and babesia.
for Buhner advanced ones: if you are aiming PERMANENT remission (for more than a year), consider adding other treatments than only herbs.
for Buhner advanced ones: if you are aiming symptom-free life despite constant treatment, I guess you still have to go on looking for other herbs to help you on that. Consider always a change in the herbs from times to times. Vary in both amount of each herb and the combination.
I'm 18 months in full remission, no treatment whatsoever. I could never reach that only with herbs (max was 5 months). I stopped all Buhner's herbs in January 2009.
---------- Good luck and wish you continuing improvement!! Selma -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 978 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Thank you, Lpkayak, for posting Brussel's reply.
I've always enjoyed reading her posts over the years.
She is very knowledgeable about many alternative treatments, and I'm thrilled to hear she has been in remission now for 18 months!
I hope I can get my daughter there one day soon!
Posts: 648 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2009
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
it keeps happeneing...if i miss a few days of tea the very first time i start i see real worms..i think they are flat worms...white...flat...about and inch long
the herbs are red root, sarsaparilla, steponis, and japanese knotweed
so do these kill parasites for anyone else?
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
i'm bringing this up cuz i am talking to a few ppl who may need it
if you scroll down to a thread i started in caps you will see tea directions
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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MichaelTampa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24868
posted
I've used a number of the Buhner herbs.
Currently, I use japanese knotweed, stephania, red root, sarsaparilla. I have used andrographis in the past but do not seem to need it these days.
I make tea with the stephania, and the red root and sarsaparilla, I buy the powder and make my own capsules. The japanese knotweed and andrographis that I use is more from the prepackaged variety.
Overall, I find them helpful. These herbs are one of the many different things I do for lyme. By the way, the most helpful of all of them, for me, is the stephania, and I point that out because I don't hear it mentioned very much. I have lyme with bartonella, and feel it really helps keep my head feeling cleaner, if you will.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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Marz
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3446
posted
I was so hoping that eleuthero would "normalize" my thyroid. I've been on synthroid since before lyme.
Instead my TSH has gone up and my dose of synthroid has been increased.
Has this happened to anyone else? Or has anyone had their thyroid function improve?
I've been more tired instead of energized by the eleuthero, but this is probably due to being low thyroid.
About the red root tea. For those using capsules and not wanting to make a tea, my LLMD has me taking Red Root Jersey Tea capsules by Solaray.
Posts: 1297 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2002
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