posted
My current LLMD has me taking 7000 mg of fish oil in divided doses daily. I have read that it is a natural anti-inflammatory and is a good thing for us. I have also read that it suppresses the immune system.
Thoughts anyone?
-------------------- ? date of bite/no rash 10/09 symptoms, 4/10 diagnosed, after 6 mos. ER visits, tons of docs/tests CDC+ 23/39/41/45/58/66/93 currently on oral plaquenil, doryx, rifampin, pyrazinamide, nystatin, numerous supplements Posts: 718 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Jun 2010
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posted
I am on fish oil as well, for the anti-inflammatory properties. I have not heard that it suppresses the immune system.
My LLND told me to make sure it was a good quality brand (I get Apex from my chiropractor) and that it had both DHA and EPA.
-------------------- "Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain." Anonymous Posts: 450 | From California | Registered: Feb 2008
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chiquita incognita
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posted
Hi Triathletelymie The source that said that it suppresses immunity is wrong.
In fact, fish oils can help. They are "Strongly anti-inflammatory" and mediate the production of cytokines, which are chemicals "telling" the immune system to swing into action www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19427777
The EFA's (essential fatty acids) are also important for building up the myelin sheath around the spinal cord. EPA in fish oil is anti-inflammatory, DHA in fish oil builds nerve tissue.
What is key however is a) that the oils are cold-pressed, this is very important. Other methods cause the oils to oxidize, essentially going rancid more rapidly. This contributes to inflammatory conditions in the body, not to anti-inflammatory action as the fish oils otherwise would do.
B) Critically important: They need to be filtered so that PCBs and heavy metal content is as low as possible.
Because heavy metals inhibit immunity and can also cause auto-immune attack, it is possible that the source which said that fish oils inhibit immunity, could have used metal-contaminated fish oils to conduct the "Study". (I use quotes because unfortunately, a lot of studies are pre-paid for a biased result, according to a nurse practitioner I talked with).
I highly recommend the Nordic Naturals brand. It may cost more than others but it's worth it. They are cold-pressed, come from Norwegian waters which encourage more EFAs in the fish to protect them from the cold, and the Norwegian government standards regarding pollutants are very stringent. Nordic Naturals surpasses the Norwegian gov't standards, are third-party tested, filtered and consistently test at 0 ppb (parts per billion) of metals and PCB's.
Compare this to Kirkland (Costco's brand). This is stretched out with soy oil (probably GMO) and contains an excess of 300 ppm (parts per million, not billion) of contaminants. MOre than any consumer should allow into his/her body.
Lots of studies have been done about fish oils. They are proven to be anti-inflammatory as said. Also, countries like Japan that eat the most fish, have the lowest rates of depression and heart disease, writes Linda Rector Page ND in her book Healthy Healing.
Here are parallel studies compiled by a doc about fish oils for manic depression. The doc writes that he deliberately chose the weakest studies to show a non-biased result, yet the recovery rates are still high. Check this out:
For anybody who is interested, here is a chart showing which fish you want to eat are lowest in mercury, which are highest, which are over-fished, which are fine to eat at this point without fear of harming the populace, etc: http://www.nrdc.org/health/effects/mercury/guide.asp
I hope this helps. Best wishes and thanks for posting about this! It will be very interesting to see what others have to say about this.
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Abxnomore
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posted
I've never read that it suppresses the immune system. It's also good for depression in high doses, which you are on.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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lymeinhell
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posted
What brand of fish oil? They are not all the same, and most are spoiled bc of processing. If they give you indigestion, it's spoiled.
I have trouble absorbing fats bc my gall bladder not so good. I swear I've tried all the fish oils out there. So my cholesteral tests have been gradually getting out of whack for the last 5 yrs.
Someone here recommended OmegaBrite. My LDL was cut by 25% in a month and my triglycerides in half. No indigestion or burping up spoiled oil too. I'm a believer now.
Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed. Posts: 2258 | From a better place than I was 11 yrs ago | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
Big Pharma will do anything to get us off of natural treatments!
I say fish oil is good as long as you are taking one that is processed carefully.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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chiquita incognita
Unregistered
posted
Hi Mattnapa It is good of you to post the link, but as herbalist I am going to say that I am very skeptical. See my comments. I think that study about the colon cancer in mice was "tweaked". If you read my comments on the thread you will see why.
When was the last time any of us saw a mouse or rat eating fish anyway? Are their bodies even made for it? Isn't it possible that the source of fish oil was contaminated and *that* was what caused the colon cancer?
There are just far too many studies of fish oil proving that it does the opposite, it actually aids cancer regeneration when paired up with other things.
For an unbiased result, I am posting a link to Pubmed (government medical database) showing all of its logged fish oils/cancer studies. The study you are referring to is at the top of the page. Scroll down and see how many studies say just the opposite about the fish oils and colon cancer specifically, showing its benefits in this area:
posted
PS boo, the link didn't lead to the right page. When you get to the pubmed page on the link above, type into the search box "fish oils colon cancer" and it will come up.
posted
High doses of fish oil does suppress the immune system. You can look up various rodent studies regarding this.
Here is a human study --
Dietary supplementation with eicosapentaenoic acid, but not with other long-chain n-3 or n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids, decreases natural killer cell activity in healthy subjects aged >55 y.
And in this study they used a relatively low dose of EPA. It could be due to immune modulation (meaning it reduced NK activity to what would be considered 'normal'... or it did what the study stated, it suppressed NK activity.)
And Nordic Natural fish oils aren't cold-pressed. There really is no such thing as properly 'cleaned' cold-pressed fish oil (even though some manufacturers claim such).
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MOLECULAR DISTILLATION AND COLD-PRESSED FISH OIL?
Please see #33, #34, and #35 (above) for information about molecular distillation. All fish oil� regardless of the kind of manufacturing process used, needs to be processed in order to remove contaminants and pass minimum laws and standards (such as California�s Proposition 65). This process always requires the use of heat. This includes so-called �cold-pressed� fish oils. Cold-pressed oil also must also use heat during processing to turn the raw material into oil and remove impurities to pass minimum laws and standards.
Nordic Naturals does not use �cold-pressed� processing because it has not been shown to provide a superior quality product. Third-party test results consistently show that our existing patented processing techniques deliver superior quality and freshness.
So even those fish oils that claim to be cold-pressed have some processing done (I expect flash distillation instead of molecular).
But Nordic Naturals is an excellent brand of fish oil -- very low oxidation numbers.
Posts: 584 | From NY | Registered: Feb 2009
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chiquita incognita
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posted
Hi Lemon-Lyme I am still skeptical. Of course I am not the word of authority, but having read extensively about holistic health(almost daily for 7 years) I do believe I have a right to at least weigh in.
I myself came across a different case illustrating that many studies are tweaked. In this case, it involved a medication. I read about 6 European studies on the pubmed government medical d-base, all of which concurred. This particular medication, I 131 radioactive iodine used to lower an overactive thyroid, was said by *all* European studies, unanimously, to be an "extremely dangerous drug. Use this only as a very last resort, when operations are contra-indicated. The side effect of leukemia is widely under-reported".
American studies were also unanimous. The "occasional" side effect of leukemia was under-played and all said the drug was great.
Why such discrepancy?
A Nurse PRactitioner told me then when I asked, that "many studies are done in the pockets of the pharmaceutical industry. They pay universities to conduct the study to look credible".
I have since read a number of articles about how corrupt and what liars the pharmaceutical companies are, to the point or actually criminally exposing people to very dangerous medical conditions as a result of taking those meds. I also have attended physicians' lectures who have given the inside scoop, how some studies have people with side effects lumped into the "pre-existing conditions" category and the FDA, knowing about it, looks the other way.
Couldn't it be, then, that these fish oil studies showing the harm they supposedly do are tweaked?
True, too much of a good thing is not a good thing. I know that too.
That said, whole foods are *much!* less likely to produce side effects or damage than an isolated chemical, or vitamin, or constituent. The balance of nutrients all working together is a completely different picture than the isolated constituent. Sort of like the contrast between olive oil and battery acid. Corrosive, or soothing, depending on whether one constituent is acting alone or in synergy with other constituents.
Too many fish oil studies exist showing their benefits to the immune system itself. I am doubtful of other claims and have to think they were tweaked.
A study should be, for credibility's sake:
Long-term Involving large numbers of people Feature a pure product, not contaminated Test on animals or people with a physiology that is compatible to the substance in question (ie, rhodents don't eat fish, sorry but dogs might be a better case in point) CHeck out who has funded the study
Then we can ask more questions and talk again.
I am willing to be corrected if I prove to be wrong. So far, I am doubtful however.
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posted
There is nothing wrong with being skeptical, but there is also a danger in assuming every study is flawed if it doesn't match one's pre-conceived notions.
I don't have links handy, as it's been a while since I researched the issue, but there are also several rodent studies showing increased infections with influenza (if I recall right) when supplementing with fish oil.
And the above study I posted shows reduced NK activity in humans.
Yes, it could be a flawed study. Or it could be due to increased oxidation due to vitamin E being used up (although 720mg EPA is a relatively paltry dose to do that).
But if being conservative, I think it wise to err on the side of caution. And the 'cold-pressed' fish oil argument doesn't hold up, as there really is no such thing. And most of Nordic Naturals' fish come from Peru by the way (check their FAQ), and are not from Norwegian waters (besides their Cod).
Anyway, as for the original poster's concerns, I'll assume 7 g is total fish oil and not Omega 3s. So if using a 30% concentrate, that's about 2 grams. I'd ask your doctor if you can take about half of that amount.
I am not anti-fish oil... but I do think too much can be harmful, especially for us, due to our already somewhat compromised immune systems. I take 1 g daily (Omega 3s), but also take IP-6, which should improve NK activity .... hopefully it evens out.
Posts: 584 | From NY | Registered: Feb 2009
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chiquita incognita
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Hi Lemon-Lyme You could be right, and I could be wrong.
I am not talking based on bias, but based on a lot of studies and a lot of reading. Surely there also is too much of a good thing not being a good thing, just as you say.
That said, here another angle to look at.
See these studies which show patients recovering from various malaises after having their mercury-containing amalgam dental fillings drilled out in a way that protected them from mercury re-exposure:
Where cancer is concerned, dentist/toxicologist/immunologist Hal Huggins has himself removed the mercury-containing fillings of cancer patients...and seen a great number of them improve. He would re-implant the fillings (by their consent) and they would relapse. Remove again (with consent) and they improved. I no longer recall which percentage of hte cases responded in this way, but you can read about it in his book It's All In Your Head.
So what am I getting at?
Immune inhibition is absolutely likely and even a given if the fish oil was mercury-contaminated.
If it was not contaminated, then there still is the possibility of physiology involved. I don't know enough about rhodent physiology to comment, but react off the top of my head with the thought that fish oils are not compatible to their vegetarian-oriented digestive systems. No wonder they came down with cancer after being fed fish oil! Why didn't they study dogs who eat fish and meat happily?
THere's also one more piece of this. The FDA and Big PHarma are actively campaigning to undermine and slander the alternative health industry. The Alliance for Natural Health reported that a US District Court Judge in DC struck down a proposed gag on the science in alternative medicine. That's right, they were trying to make it illegal to quote the science---logged to the government's own medical database-----about herbs, foods, supplements, you name it.
They have attacked statements about health benefits in foods like walnuts and called them "drugs" anytime you mention a health benefit (again logged to the Pubmed medical database, to boot).
I can give many more examples but will stop here, you get the point.
Thank you for the correction about the cold-pressing of fish oils and I do need to know about that. I appreciate the correction.
I just want you and everybody here to know that if herbs or other supplements have side-effects, I am the first to disclose them. In fact, people on this site have reprimanded me at times for doing so. I am genuinely interested in human health and feel it is only ethical to give full disclosure.
I remain doubtful about this "Study" of fish oil and would like to know who funded it, if the oils were contaminated, etc. And why they chose rhodents of all creatures as experimental subjects, that's a red flag right there where fish or animal proteins/oils are concerned. Something to think about.
Thanks for your headsup and I will read the links, I am interested. Again I appreciate this and am willing to be proven wrong. I think at this point that it is easy to attribute immune inhibition to the fish oils where contaminants therein were really at fault. A nice and easy way to "tweak" a study for purposes of profits and gain in another industry. Food for thought.
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chiquita incognita
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posted
PS no big deal but just so you know, vitamin E is used to *inhibit* oxidation in oils. No biggie, once again.
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posted
I have had one doctor tell me that NO fish or krill oil should be ingested because of the high level of mercury. I think I'm more afraid of the potential contamination than of the potential health benefits.
-------------------- We really know so little about the body and the microbiome. Posts: 261 | From Southern California | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by chiquita incognita: PS no big deal but just so you know, vitamin E is used to *inhibit* oxidation in oils. No biggie, once again.
Yep. But in the abstracts for some studies, they don't state if vitamin E was in the fish oil they used.
Hence the possibility that oxidation from the fish oil caused a degree of immune suppression, not due to fish oil specifically, but vitamin E being depleted. If a person takes fish oil without vitamin E, their own E levels may decrease.
I recall DHA reducing an immune marker in a human study, but when vitamin E was included, it wasn't a factor (sorry, don't recall which study it was).
Posts: 584 | From NY | Registered: Feb 2009
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chiquita incognita
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posted
Now *that's* interesting Lemon-Lyme, and that makes sense. I would want to read more before I decided yea or nay, but if it proves to be true then it explains something. I will check into it and find out more. Thanks for the tip.
Not so sure fyi about the oil pressing methods but will brush up too and get back to you.
Thanks for all this research!
Sunny Days (love the name!) as far as your concern goes, you are right to be cautious and yes, the contamination is far more of a concern than anything else too. PCB's are a concern too fyi.
That said, if the source
A) Comes from Peru or NOrway, where waters are pretty clear (said Dr Michael Murray at a lecture of his I attended, he is on the forefront of naturopathic research)
B) Is filtered for contaminants
Then it shouldn't be a concern.
If you look on the chart I linked above about which fish are most/least contaminated, shrimp et al appear low on the list. Certain types of salmon are low but others high, so to be aware of which type is key.
I have worked with the public in the health setting and never seen a problem FYI.
Again if there are side effects/concerns, I am the first to let people know. One herbalist on another site repimanded me for scaring people unnecessarily in fact. Others on this site have done the same. I am very careful and prefer to err on the side of caution.
After all, it's unethical not to.
That said, to the best of my knowledge when precautions are followed, there should be little need for concern. I have *never* myself seen anybody harmed by (good quality) fish oils and have seen lots of people benefit ,and some with no response either way. THat's the full scoop.
My word is not God and I am not a doctor.
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chiquita incognita
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posted
PS Lemon-Lyme et al
Of note, the study above stating that the rhodents developed colon cancer with fish oils, had one important flaw.
The rhodents involved had inflammatory bowel syndrome before the study even began.
Above and beyond the oxidation, contamination issues already discussed that could possibly/likely have tweaked this study, I still question:
A) Why they used vegetarian animals for a fish oil study and how their bodies could tolerate the fish? That makes the study somewhat suspect (to me) from the get-go
B) Why they chose animals that already were digestively/immuno-compromised, above and beyond? Sure, feed vegetarian animals with IBS some foreign substance and yes, they will of course develop colon cancer! Big Duh....!! :-)
C) Add contaminants to the mix (if present) and what have you got? A bogus claim designed to scare everybody based on falsehoods.
False Evidence Appearing Real=FEAR.
I think this study is suspicious and at least merits further investigation. I could be proven wrong but have my suspicions for now.
Please see the Pubmed page about fish studies and scroll down. Look only at the titles to skim: How may show benefits and how many show problems? Then decide what you think, for yourself.
For anybody who is still concerned that fish oils inhibit immunity when in large quantities (bear in mind that larger quantities=higher contamination levels unless thoroughly filtered and batch-checked)....
Then my suggestion to you is to a) use oil that is filtered and properly pressed to prevent oxidation b) go moderately.
It doesn't mean that fish oils suppress immunity. It means that the question is up whether or not fish oils *in large quantities* suppress it.
I still mmmm....smell something fishy here.
Unfortunately the FDA and Big Pharma have a long track record of trying to spread disinformation campaigns about naturopathics and holistic health. They also have actively deceived the public about many health "benefits" including but not limited to flouride in the waters, allow 300 new chemicals to be dumped into the atmosphere every year, tried to gag the *science* about natural foods and supplements, the list could go on and on. I have many examples I could link, many . The bias would be very obvious to people.
Those interested in such a thread please step forward. If it intersts people I will compile links and show a long track record. It will take time so I want to know before I go to the trouble. Please post below. Thank you! Best wishes everybody.
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