posted
I'm just looking to get a collection of opinions. The studies seem inconclusive, but I'm sure a lot can be learned from people's personal experiences.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
My LLMD obtained borrelia from sperm. Sometimes you can get infected from someone else and it just remains dormant much like the Aids virus before it becomes active.
If spirochetes from syphilis can be transmitted then why wouldn't borrelia another spirochete be able to be transmitted.
Also parasites can be considered and STD because they are highly transmissable. If you would like the name of my former LLMD to look up the study, just send me a pm.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
My LLMD says it is not sexually transmitted and to go and live you life without looking through lyme glasses all the time.
If you feel frightened then use protection but do not give up your love life. This is more important than any treatment in the world.
Enjoy life and live it.
-------------------- Diagnosed with chronic neuro lyme 12/10 after 30 years of vertigo.2 tick bites in 3 yrs from upstate NY. Was on omincef for nine mths..zith and rifampin stopped.Remission~ All the pain and symptoms are back and I am not treating now with biaxin. Posts: 788 | From New york..queens | Registered: Nov 2010
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MichaelTampa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24868
posted
I think yes. Similar to syphilis, heard of too many "family" cases.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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posted
My well known LLMD said that they studied mice infected with lyme disease. He said that the female mice who lived together in one cage did infect the others. He said that they all slept cuddled together and that seemed to be the reason. He does not believe that it is an STD and he was a pioneer in AIDS research.
He said that he treats about 150 couples with it, but that they get it from sleeping close together, not from sex, or that they visited the same tick infested area.
Now we get to begin my spouse's treatment. Sigh. But hopefully we caught it early enough so that treatment won't have to be as drastic as mine.
-------------------- DOCTOR: "I don't think you are sick." PATIENT: "We are all entitled to our opinions. I don't think you are a doctor." Posts: 697 | From Northern California | Registered: Jul 2009
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
I worry about this being all being passed back and forth between my husband and me.
Wonder if my husband is a lyme carrier or someother vector borne illness. All the meds for myself were not going to work if I continually get infected. Then infect him with whatever.
My husband is a meat cutter. I just cut out a story in our CJ newspaper about two months ago from Atlanta associated press....
they did studies on meat and poultry and found a very high rate of staph germ in random cities and stores. Even worse was half of these staph were the MRSA, antibiotic resistant????
My husband is a nail biter, down to the nubs and even more and he continually has cuts and hang nails on this hands. He chews his nails while he is driving. Of course that is home from work and he is chewing.
I believe I have a possible staph rash and I'm going to have it tested for staph soon from my dermo. My dermo says from my description he said it sounds like staph. But I also think it could be tied in with my bartonella.
I've decided when my next breakout happens I'm not going to treat whether it's my elbows, tops of feet or under my breasts. I'm going to let it fester up and go for bioposy to rule out staph.
The story was saying they don't know what the risk is to the consumers. That concerns me, but even more so I'm concerned about my husband and myself being exposed to these harmful bacteria.
I know my husband has his hands washed hundreds of times a day, but what if he's a staph carrier? I often suspect he is carrier of something, he's been lyme treated twice and successful, but I am suspicious????
What if his blood, sperm, salvia is staph is a carrier? I know in order to do staph test it needs to be some API-STAPH culture and having a MSH tested.
Our own Tammy N sent me some great info last month about coagulase negative staph and it says one cannot get well without addressing this bacteria.
This test can be done by Labcorp, so I would assume Quest also does it. Now to get my husband to have this test. That's going to be the hard part.
I'm not so paranoid as to give up sex for all these. Should we be using protection? Not a bad idea and I did tell my husband years ago that it might be sexually transmitted.
He thinks I'm tick sick and I am. He thinks I was just the unlucky one. Blindness and denial.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
My LLND says it's not impossible, but no one really knows.
I'm not a hooker or anything, but I've had a number of boyfriends over the last 9 years that I've been undiagnosed.
Do some of those people have health issues? Only one that I know of. but he didn't have the best lifestyle. He would drink quite a bit of alcohol and works a lot. DIdn't have the healthiest diet either and has seemed to have a mild depression before i met him.
I've heard too, that it's easier for a male to infect a female than the other way around. Don't ask me to site my source because i can't remember. But I do know my LLND said the same thing.
So I'm not as worried about passing something to a partner but I am up front about the possibility and let my partner make a choice. I would, though, avoid unprotected intercourse around the time of my period because I have Babesia. Wouldn't want to take any chances there.
posted
It was interesting reading these responses. It seems that the majority would say that it's not sexually transmitted.
I wonder if the "type" of sex is significant, i.e. oral v. conventional.
One strange thing is how Willy Burgdorfer got the EM rash after he accidentally splashed some infected rabbit urine in his eye. This shows that Lyme can be transmitted through liquids (at least in the eye).
It's sad that this is such a huge and disastrous epidemic, yet still we don't know the answers to these fundamental questions.
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
I really feel it's the only logical answer as to why entire families can be ill.
Yes husband and wife do frequent the same areas. My husband plays golf and I did before lyme & co changed that.
My husband has brought home 3 ticks, three different times to me. These ticks were on obvisious places for me to find. Two were on my face embedded and one was on my calf embedded.
Do they drop off him? Do they crawl around on him and bite and then get next to me in the bed and say aha there's who I want.
He says he doesn't go deep into the wooded areas for balls. he only goes to the edge of the woods. Yeah right! I know him and he would go into knee high grass or the woods and get that ball to drop it.
I'm a magnet and it's quite obvisious. Maybe my husband is just a carrier of ticks. lol
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I posted a bunch of times about this... you may want to check back in the past records. This question comes up about every 3 weeks or so.
The cliff notes version is - you need the tick saliva to be infected. I posted a number of studies about it. There's a chemical in the tick saliva that suppresses the immune system so the body will not recognize the bacteria.
There is no tick saliva in body fluids - unless you are TickMan or something.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
In what strain of the disease, all? I have read there are at least 12 strains of the disease. I am really curious of the transmission. I am curious about a fresh open wound while your hands are immersed in bodily fluids of wild game. If a baby can get it in the womb, you would think, it can be transferred by bodily fluids. I am not trying to argue or be ignorant,just trying to learn and undestand.
-------------------- Help I am being forced against my will to learn medicine!!! Posts: 164 | From WASHINGTON | Registered: Jun 2011
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posted
Personal experience, no. Before I knew I had Lyme I had a years-long relationship including barrier-free sex and that partner is healthy today, more than 8 years later. She didn't have a "super" immune system and had some minor medical problems prior to us ever being together, so if being exposed to bodily fluids was a prominent infection vector, she should have been infected.
Professional opinion, highly unlikely and that most of the "evidence" to the contrary is flawed. Look for posts by Sparkle7 and myself in other threads about this topic. Having an antibody reaction is not the same as an infection, its important to note. Also, if it was so easy to transmit these organisms in sexual fluid, wouldn't we have a new diagnostic?
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
My question is not asking about sexual fluids but blood to blood contact. Or any internal fluids to an open wound, In other words, animal infected open wound. Internal fluids transfer.
I am so hot on this topic because that is a real threat in my area and most other states also. And if possible hunters and other people involved with wildlife need to be made aware of this. There needs to be an advocate in this aspecit as well
-------------------- Help I am being forced against my will to learn medicine!!! Posts: 164 | From WASHINGTON | Registered: Jun 2011
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
sparkle, I feel like tickwoman. Does that count?
I will need to go back and read your posts/threads. I admit I haven't. I just know what the good doctor told me years ago.
Maybe he's changed his thinking on transmission of borrelia also?
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
i've never found a tick on myself but did find the bullseye rash. i've found tons of fleas tho, from my dog!!!
i've pulled several ticks off him.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
From what I've read, I do believe Bb can be sexually transmitted. Common sense would tell you that if the bacteria can disseminate to any area of the body then the possibility exists for it to find its way into semen or into the menstrual blood and/or vaginal mucous.
Like someone else said, the immunosuppressive effect of the tick saliva is an important factor in the development of an active Bb infection. However, since we all know that Bb can lie dormant in the body for years waiting for the perfect conditions to begin reproducing...somewhere down the road it is possible that person could develop an active Bb infection at a time when their immune system becomes weakened by injury or illness.
Can Bb be transmitted through sexual contact? Yes, most likely. Is it going to cause an active infection? No, almost certainly not (but possible in a person with a weakened immune system).
Posts: 156 | From Virginia | Registered: May 2011
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
I posted several studies about transmission. If you like to worry about things - be my guest...
I think the radiation from Fukishima poses a greater health threat than sexual transmission of Lyme.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I'll post them again -
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Just something to think about in regards to sexual transmission... I keep posting this over & over again in one form or another.
Science is not based on belief. It's based on some kinds of reproducable facts. That what makes it science & not some belief system, cult, etc.
Researchers do not completely understand the molecular basis of how Borrelia burgdorferi maintains itself in nature via a complex life cycle that involves passage through ticks and various intermediate hosts, such as mice and deer, before infecting humans.
The outer surface protein A (OspA) of B. burgdorferi has been well studied, and there is much speculation about its role�in conjunction with other cell surface proteins (OspB and OspC)�in transmitting Lyme disease (J Clin Invest 113: 1093, 2004).
Gene BptA
Although B. burgdorferi depends on Ixodes ticks and mammalian (rodent) hosts for its persistence in nature (J Clin Microbiol 38: 382, 2000), the search for borrelial genes responsible for its parasitic dependence on these types of diverse hosts has been hampered by limitations in the ability to genetically manipulate virulent strains of Borrelia.
Despite this constraint, there is evidence to indicate that the inactivation and complementation of a gene (BBE16) encoded by a linear plasmid (lp25) plays a major role in the virulence, pathogenesis, and survival of B. burgdorferi during its natural life cycle (Mol Microbiol 48: 753, 2003).
This gene, which has been renamed BptA (for borrelial persistence in ticks-gene A), potentiates virulence in mice and is essential for the persistence of B. burgdorferi in Ixodes scapularis ticks.
Although BptA appears to be a lipoprotein expressed on the outer surface membrane of B. burgdorferi, the molecular mechanism(s) by which BptA promotes persistence within its tick vector remains to be elucidated.
Since BptA appears to be highly conserved (>88 percent similarity and >74 percent identity in amino acid sequence) in all B. burgdorferi sensu lato strains examined, it may be widely used to promote persistence in nature.
Given the absolute dependence on�and intimate association with�its tick and rodent hosts, BptA must be considered to be a major virulence factor that is critical for B. burgdorferi's overall infectious strategy (Proc Natl Acad Sci 102: 6972, 2005).
Strategies designed to block the synthesis or expression of BptA could be of great value in preventing the transmission of Lyme disease.
Outer Surface Proteins
Given the potential role that differentially up-regulated surface proteins play in the transmission of borreliosis and Lyme disease pathogenesis, other investigators have conducted a comprehensive gene expression profiling analysis of temperature-shifted and mammalian host-adapted B. burgdorferi.
The combined microarray analyses revealed that many genes encoding known and putative outer surface proteins are down-regulated in mammalian host-adapted B. burgdorferi.
However, at the same time, several different genes encoding at least seven putative outer surface proteins were found to be up-regulated during the transmission and infection process.
All seven are immunogenic and generate the production of bactericidal antibodies in infected baboons (Infect Imm 74: 296, 2006). This suggests that these outer surface proteins might be excellent second-generation vaccine candidates.
The above findings are consistent with the results of other published studies (J Infect Dis 186: 1430, 2002) in which a novel experimental technique (xenodiagnosis by ticks) was used to determine whether B. burgdorferi can persist in mice long after antibiotic therapy.
Here, an immunoflourescence assay and the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) assay were used to demonstrate that B. burgdorferi could be detected in doxycycline- and ceftriaxone-treated mice for at least 3 months�if not longer�after antibiotic therapy.
However, the resulting surviving spirochetes are unable to infect other naive mice because they lack those linear plasmids (lp25 and lp28) that are essential for their ability to transmit infection (J Infect Dis 186: 1430, 2002).
It is noteworthy that lp25 also encodes for a gene product (PncA or BBE22) that is essential for the survival of B. burgdorferi in a mammalian host (Mol Microbiol 48: 753, 2003).
OspA and OspB
NIAID-supported investigators have now been able to create various mutant strains of B. burgdorferi and show that although OspA and OspB are not required for infection of mice, they are essential for the colonization and survival of B. burgdorferi in ticks.
Ixodes scapularis ticks have a receptor on the inner wall of their intestines to which B. burgdorferi are able to bind tenaciously by means of OspA, a cell surface protein. This receptor is called the �tick receptor for OspA� or TROSPA.
Attachment to TROSPA enables B. burgdorferi to persist in the gut from the time they are ingested by ticks through a subsequent molt, thereby avoiding elimination; this enables Borrelia to be injected into a new host when ticks take their next blood meal (Cell 119: 457, 2004).
When ticks take a blood meal, the production of OspA is down-regulated in favor of the increased production of OspC. This causes gut-bound spirochetes to become detached, which enables ticks then to migrate to the salivary glands where they can be injected into mammalian hosts.
Thus, TROSPA, in addition to other bacterial cell surface components such as OspA, appear to play a key role in the transmission of Lyme disease to humans.
Other studies have shown that if ticks are permitted to feed on mice that have been immunized previously with OspA, or have been treated with antibody specific for OspA, the attachment and subsequent colonization of ticks by B. burgdorferi is significantly impaired if not prevented.
This suggests the feasibilty of developing oral or vector expressed transmission-blocking vaccines, that involve the immunization of intermediate hosts upon which ticks feed (Proc Natl Acad Sci 101: 18159, 2004).
Several NIAID-supported investigators are now examining and testing this approach under controlled laboratory conditions.
Salivary Proteins
Other studies conducted by NIAID-supported investigators (Nature 436: 573, 2005) demonstrate that B. burgdorferi utilizes an immunosuppressive tick salivary protein (Salp 15) to facilitate the transmission of infection to mammalian hosts.
This is based on observations that: (a) the level of Salp 15 expression is enhanced by the presence of B. burgdorferi in infected ticks; (b) Salp 15 adheres specifically to spirochete surface OspC both in vivo and in vitro, thereby increasing the ability of B. burgdorferi to infect mice; and (c) the binding of Salp 15 protects B. burgdorferi from antibody-mediated killing in vitro, a factor that confers marked survival advantage.
All of these findings suggest that Salp 15 and/or other tick salivary proteins might be excellent candidates for vaccines to block the transmission of Lyme disease (Parasitol 129: S161, 2004).
In this context, prior and repeated exposure of experimental animals to uninfected ticks�and presumably their salivary proteins�has been shown to limit the capacity of infected ticks to transmit Lyme disease (J Emerg Infect Dis 11: 36, 2005).
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Last Updated December 05, 2007
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More -
Infection and Immunity, February 2011, p. 774-785, Vol. 79, No. 2 0019-9567/11/$12.00+0 doi:10.1128/IAI.00482-10 Copyright � 2011, American Society for Microbiology. All Rights Reserved.
Antialarmin Effect of Tick Saliva during the Transmission of Lyme Disease
Claire Marchal,1 Frederic Schramm,1 Aur�lie Kern,1 Benjamin J. Luft,2 Xiaohua Yang,2 Tim Schuijt,3 Joppe Hovius,3 Beno�t Jaulhac,1,* and Nathalie Boulanger1, EA 4438, Physiopathologie et M�decine Translationnelle, Facult�s de M�decine et de Pharmacie, Universit� de Strasbourg, Strasbourg, France,1 Stony Brook University, Division of Infectious Diseases, Stony Brook, New York 11794-8153,2 Department of Internal Medicine, Center for Experimental and Molecular Medicine (CEMM), Center for Infection and Immunity (CINIMA), Academic Medical Center, University of Amsterdam, Amsterdam 1105 AZ, Netherlands3
Received 30 April 2010/ Returned for modification 4 June 2010/ Accepted 22 November 2010
Tick saliva has potent immunomodulatory properties. In arthropod-borne diseases, this effect is largely used by microorganisms to increase their pathogenicity and to evade host immune responses.
We show that in Lyme borreliosis, tick salivary gland extract and a tick saliva protein, Salp15, inhibit in vitro keratinocyte inflammation induced by Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto or by the major outer surface lipoprotein of Borrelia, OspC.
Chemokines (interleukin-8 [IL-8] and monocyte chemoattractant protein 1 [MCP-1]) and several antimicrobial peptides (defensins, cathelicidin, psoriasin, and RNase 7) were downregulated.
Interestingly, antimicrobial peptides (AMPs) transiently inhibited bacterial motility but did not kill the organisms when tested in vitro.
We conclude that tick saliva affects the chemotactic properties of chemokines and AMPs on immune cells and has an antialarmin effect on human primary keratinocytes.
Alarmins are mediators that mobilize and activate antigen-presenting cells. Inhibition of cutaneous innate immunity and of the migration of immune cells to the site of the tick bite ensures a favorable environment for Borrelia.
The bacterium can then multiply locally and, subsequently, disseminate to the target organs, including joints, heart, and the central nervous system.
* Corresponding author. Mailing address: EA 4438, Physiopathologie et M�decine Translationnelle, Facult�s de M�decine et de Pharmacie, Universit� de Strasbourg, 67000 Strasbourg, France. Phone: 33 3 90 24 37 80. Fax: 33 3 88 25 11 13. E-mail: [email protected] Published ahead of print on 6 December 2010.
Spitting Image: Tick Saliva Assists the Causative Agent of Lyme Disease in Evading Host Skin�s Innate Immune Response
Joppe W.R. Hovius1
1Center for Experimental and Molecular Medicine, University of Amsterdam, Academic Medical Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Lyme disease is caused by the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi and is transmitted through ticks. Inhibition of host skin�s innate immune response might be instrumental to both tick feeding and B. burgdorferi transmission. The article by Marchal et al. describes how tick saliva suppresses B. burgdorferi�induced antimicrobial peptide production. This inhibition directly facilitates survival of the spirochete and might lead to diminished chemotaxis of leukocytes toward the site of the tick bite.
Lyme disease, or Lyme borreliosis, was first recognized as a distinct clinical entity in 1975 in Old Lyme, Connecticut, in children at the Yale�New Haven Hospital who were initially thought to have juvenile rheumatoid arthritis (Steere et al., 1977). Previously, however, certain clinical signs of the disease had been described in Europe (Afzelius, 1921). Ixodes scapularis, Ixodes ricinus, and Ixodes persulcatus are the most important vectors for Lyme borreliosis in the United States, Europe, and Asia, respectively, and the disease is caused by spirochetes of the Borrelia burgdorferi sensu lato group (Wang et al., 1999). In Europe and Asia, three major Borrelia genospecies (B. burgdorferi sensu stricto, Borrelia garinii, and Borrelia afzelii) are the causative agents. By contrast, only B. burgdorferi sensu stricto strains are present in the United States. The obligate enzootic life cycle of the spirochetes involves ticks, primarily Ixodes ticks, and a variety of vertebrate hosts, including small rodents, large mammals, and birds (Anderson and Magnarelli, 1980). In general, uninfected tick larvae acquire the bacterium by feeding on infected animals. Ticks remain infected during their consecutive molting periods, enabling both nymphal and adult ticks to transmit spirochetes to (larger) animals and humans.
To secure attachment of the tick and to ensure susceptibility of reservoir hosts for future tick infestations, tick saliva contains modulators of host immune responses. During the course of a blood meal, which can take up to seven days, ticks introduce saliva containing a wide range of physiologically active components. Immunosuppressive proteins in tick saliva interfere with the host�s innate and adaptive immune responses (Figure 1), including inhibition of the complement cascade (Ribeiro, 1987); binding of histamine (Mans, 2005); impairment of natural killer cell (Kopecky and Kuthejlova, 1998), dendritic cell (Hovius et al., 2008a), and neutrophil function (Montgomery et al., 2004); reduction in antibody titers (Wikel and Bergman, 1997); repression of production of cytokines such as interleukin (IL)-2, interferon-γ (Anguita et al., 2002; Gillespie et al., 2001; Kotsyfakis et al., 2006), IL-4 (Muller-Doblies et al., 2007), and IL-10 (Hannier et al., 2003); blocking of chemokine activity (Deruaz et al., 2008); and inhibition of T-lymphocyte proliferation (Ramachandra and Wikel, 1992). In recent years, many tick proteins with specific functions have been identified (reviewed by Hovius et al., 2008b). Importantly, immunosuppression by tick saliva may result in more efficient transmission of several tick-borne pathogens (Wikel, 1999).
Tick salivary gland extract inhibits antimicrobial peptide production Figure 1.
Inhibition of skin innate immune responses by tick saliva. During feeding, the tick introduces saliva into the host skin. Tick saliva contains numerous proteins with specific functions. The figure depicts those with immunosuppressive activity affecting host innate immunity. Several specific immunosuppressive functions have been attributed to tick saliva and to salivary gland extract (SGE). Also, as depicted in the figure, several salivary proteins with specific functions have been indentified. It should be noted that inhibition of host innate immune responses by tick saliva could be beneficial for both tick attachment and Borrelia burgdorferi. For related references, see the text. AMP, antimicrobial peptide; IFN-γ, inteferon γ; IL, interleukin; NO, nitric oxide; TNF-α; tumor necrosis factor-α.
Full figure and legend (188K)
For both the tick and the spirochete, it is of paramount importance to inhibit the host innate immune response, the first line of host defense. A crucial part of the innate immune response against invading microorganisms is the complement cascade. Many bacteria, such as Streptococcus pneumoniae (Neeleman et al., 1999) and Neisseria meningitidis (Ram et al., 1999), have evolved mechanisms to inhibit complement-mediated killing. B. burgdorferi utilizes complement regulating�acquiring surface proteins (Kraiczy et al., 2001) and Osp E/F related proteins (Alitalo et al., 2002; Hellwage et al., 2001) to bind factor H or FHL protein and consequently inhibit complement-mediated borreliacidal activity. In addition, several tick salivary proteins have been identified that inhibit different pathways within the complement cascade (Schroeder et al., 2007; Schuijt et al., 2008; Tyson et al., 2008; Valenzuela et al., 2000).
Innate immune responses also include the family of antimicrobial peptides, an ancient form of host defense found in both plants and animals that possesses bactericidal capacities. Production of antimicrobial peptides at the site of infection�for instance, the skin�also results in chemotaxis of leukocytes. Marchal et al. (this issue, 2009) and others demonstrate that B. burgdorferi is able to induce the production of several antimicrobial peptides, including human β-defensin-2 and cathelicidin LL-37, in human resident skin cells (fibroblasts and keratinocytes). In addition, they show that a selection of these antimicrobial peptides exhibit transient growth-inhibiting properties against B. burgdorferi. Induction of antimicrobial peptides could favor a robust innate immune response at the site of the tick bite, which could not only result in clearance of B. burgdorferi but also hamper tick feeding. Interestingly, Marchal and collaborators now demonstrate that salivary gland extract from Ixodes ricinus has the capacity to inhibit B. burgdorferi�induced antimicrobial peptide production. This would favor B. burgdorferi survival and facilitate infection as well as inhibit chemotaxis of leukocytes to the site of the tick bite, thereby making the tick�host�pathogen interface a less hostile environment and favoring tick attachment to the host.
Identification of novel functions of tick saliva and tick salivary gland extract contributes to the understanding of the pathogenesis of Lyme disease. This may help researchers identify tick saliva proteins that could serve as templates for new pharmacological compounds and could reveal new ways to prevent or treat tick-borne infections such as Lyme disease and other emerging tick-borne infections.
J Parasitol. 1999 Jun;85(3):426-30. Investigation of venereal, transplacental, and contact transmission of the Lyme disease spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi, in Syrian hamsters.
Woodrum JE, Oliver JH Jr.
Institute of Arthropodology and Parasitology, Department of Biology, Georgia Southern University, Statesboro 30460, USA.
Abstract
A hamster was inoculated with the SI-1 strain of Borrelia burgdorferi and subsequently served as a host to larval Ixodes scapularis Say.
Approximately 68% of the nymphs resulting from the fed larvae were infected. Nymphs from this group were fed on uninfected hamsters, and 3 of 4 males and 6 of 6 females became infected.
The infected hamsters were allowed to mate with uninfected partners to test for venereal transmission.
Six infected females were mated with 6 uninfected males, whereas 3 infected males were mated with 6 uninfected females.
None of the uninfected hamsters became infected after mating. Two protocols were used to determine if transplacental transmission of B. burgdorferi occurred.
One group included 6 nonpregnant infected females that were subsequently mated and became pregnant.
Three of the females were allowed to carry to full term, whereas the other 3 were killed prior to parturition.
All fetuses and offspring were negative for B. burgdorferi based on cultures and monoclonal antibody assays.
Another group of 6 females was infected via tick bite after becoming pregnant; those females were allowed to carry fetuses to birth and all were negative.
Attempts at contact transmission of B. burgdorferi from 2 infected females to 2 uninfected male and 2 uninfected female hamsters and from 2 infected males to 2 uninfected male and uninfected female hamsters via urine or feces failed.
Colin A. Walsh MB BCh MRCPI Specialist Registrar in OB/GYN Addenbrooke�s Hospital, Cambridge, UK ILADS Annual Scientific Meeting, October 2007
No study has been able to show a definitive link between gestational Lyme disease and an increased risk of congenital anomalies.
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Conclusions
␣␣ The diagnosis of Lyme disease in pregnancy is unchanged ␣␣ Borrelia burgdorferi can cross the placenta ␣␣ No proven link between gestational borreliosis and adverse outcome ␣␣ Women with confirmed Lyme disease in pregnancy should receive appropriate antibiotic treatment according to disease manifestation ␣␣ No evidence for treating asymptomatic seropositive women ␣␣ Routine prophylaxis is not recommended following a tick-bite in pregnancy
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Lyme Disease in Pregnancy: Case Report and Review of the Literature.
CME Program
Obstetrical & Gynecological Survey. 62(1):41-50, January 2007. Walsh, Colin A. MB *; Mayer, Elizabeth W. MD +; Baxi, Laxmi V. MD ++
Abstract:
Lyme disease is the most common vector-borne disease in the United States. A number of other spirochetal diseases, if contracted in pregnancy, have been shown to cause fetal harm and there is concern over a similar effect with gestational borreliosis.
Previously published individual case reports have suggested a possible association between gestational borreliosis and adverse pregnancy outcome; however, no specific pattern of teratogenicity has been shown, and a causal relationship has never been proven.
In addition, larger epidemiological and serological series have consistently failed to demonstrate an increased risk to pregnant women who develop Lyme disease if they receive appropriate antimicrobial therapy.
We describe a favorable outcome in a 42-year-old woman who developed Lyme disease in the third trimester and was treated with a full course of oral amoxicillin.
In addition, we offer a review of the relevant literature regarding Lyme disease and pregnancy. The appropriate investigation and management of a woman with gestational borreliosis are discussed.
Target Audience: Obstetricians & Gynecologists, Family Physicians
Learning Objectives: After completion of this article, the reader should be able to recall that Lyme disease is not an uncommon disease during pregnancy and can occur in states outside of the Northeast, explain that the diagnosis is made clinically and may be confirmed by laboratory tests, state that treatment is recommended during pregnancy, and summarize that there is no consistent data of adverse fetal effects even though the placenta is infected.
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Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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I am so hot on this topic because that is a real threat in my area and most other states also. And if possible hunters and other people involved with wildlife need to be made aware of this. There needs to be an advocate in this aspecit as well
- I believe that is possible. Do a search here. I know it's been discussed before.
Look for the little word "search" above..
type in something like "deer and infected meat" or "deer and lyme" ... something along those lines
"can you eat deer meat"
--would still think it's a long shot though--
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
You couldn't give me money to eat deer meat. I don't like deer. They are dangerous and cause deaths in car accidents.
Where's there's deer is woods and shelters and ticks and lyme and crap I want nothing to do with.
Yes, deer roam our neighborhood at night. Walking down the middle of the road and eating out of what little yards we have in a patio home/condo community.
I don't know where they come from, why they come here, and I wish they would go elsewhere where people think they are beautiful.
I see deer and I'm not a happy camper. I wouldn't camp for all the money in Texas. Big money in Texas, but who needs money if you don't have your health.
All the Bambi people can go hunting. I wish our state had a year round kill. Wouldn't bother me none.
Now I would be upset if something happened to my birds. I love my birds. I know ticks get around on birds too. Just deer that I see as enemy.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I have a conure on my shoulder right now. I love birds too. One major concern i am having is about migrating waterfowl. A deer roams a square mile or two. Ducks, geese, swallows etc cover millions of square miles and make hundreds of stops in their travels. Right now in my mind that is how it is spreading cross country into canada etc.. I am trying how it got from the east coast to the west and canada and so on. or was it always here, everyone i talk to im area so far is completely ignorant about even tick removal, as was I. I have yet to get a correct answer from anyone on how to just remove a tick, much less anything else. I plan on spreading the word much more intensely through hunters safety. I also assist teaching it, but I want to know as much as possible. I hope i dont sound mad at you because im not
-------------------- Help I am being forced against my will to learn medicine!!! Posts: 164 | From WASHINGTON | Registered: Jun 2011
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posted
My husband was diagnosed with lyme 4 yrs ago and I was just diagnosed. I know that I got it from him. There is no doubt in my mind and Our llmd thinks its very possible.
Posts: 137 | From Illinois | Registered: Jan 2010
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-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by farraday: He said that he treats about 150 couples with it, but that they get it from sleeping close together, not from sex, or that they visited the same tick infested area.
Now we get to begin my spouse's treatment. Sigh. But hopefully we caught it early enough so that treatment won't have to be as drastic as mine.
wtf. sleeping close together??? really, so we should all worry every time we are in crowded places now??? come on.
-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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payne
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26248
posted
tick tick tick... why would you risk giving a loved one this horrific disease.. my daughter keeps the grand kids away from me all 12 of them, like lepordcy(sp) y e s i BELIEVE YOU CAN GET IT FROM ME...
-------------------- TULAREMIA/rabbit fever ? Posts: 1931 | From mid-michigan | Registered: Jun 2010
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lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
I agree with erikjh, no it's not proven to be transmitted sexually. Just because your spouse has it doesn't mean they gave it to you.. It's just as likely that you got it from the same source he did.. Ticks are everywhere..
It's absurd to think that sleeping close together will transmit this disease.. Now I've heard everything..
Anyone who believes you can get this from casual contact should consider living in a colony away from other people. Otherwise you are deliberately exposing innocent people to this disease which would be a crime in itself.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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James1979
Unregistered
posted
I believe the fact of the matter is that the studies are so far inconclusive. We can all make educated guesses and hold personal opinions, but I don't believe it's correct for anyone to be completely certain of their positions yet.
The reason why I started this topic is because I wanted to see the opinions of the members of this forum. I apologize that I didn't use the search feature beforehand, as someone has suggested.
I would not be surprised if some people's answers are different in a year from now, when (hopefully) more studies will have been done.
I thank everyone for their responses. This forum is really great! I will continue to follow this topic with interest.
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quote:Originally posted by James1979: I would not be surprised if some people's answers are different in a year from now, when (hopefully) more studies will have been done.
really, the disease has been AROUND foe decades and in a year we are going to have answers. Sorry to dissappoint you but i'm 39 and hopefully by the time my son is my age we will have real answers. he's 1.
-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by payne: why would you risk giving a loved one this horrific disease.. my daughter keeps the grand kids away from me all 12 of them, like lepordcy(sp) y e s i BELIEVE YOU CAN GET IT FROM ME...
i feel sorry that you feel that way. but to not hug your grandchildren is to me the most absurd thing, your not going to give it to them. i remember when everyone thought you could get aids from casual contact. :-(
-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
lymetoo, I was saying that i have yet to get the correct answer from anyone i ask in my area. friends neighbors, etc. I am trying to get the word out on how to properly remove a tick and what to watch for. This board is giving me great answers and saving my life. I just cant believe how mis informed people are around be about just the basics. I was thinkin I was the dumb one when it came to lyme and ticks. My area needs education extremely bad
-------------------- Help I am being forced against my will to learn medicine!!! Posts: 164 | From WASHINGTON | Registered: Jun 2011
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posted
ill post what i wrote on a youtube thingy here:
"leptospira is also a spirochete and is not known to be sexually transmitted like treponema pallidum. The syph is HIGHLY contagious. You can contract it through a hand shake. the reason syph is sexually transmitted is because it grows in the condylomata lata wart like lesions around the genitals. Any pathogen that can survive in the mucous membrane usually has an IgA protease virulence factor. " This latter part has got me thinking....if lyme disease has progressed to the point of immune suppression, and there is a lack of helper T cells, then maybe the only possible defense there is on the mucosal surfaces is IgG which is less specific and durable than IgA...IF the organisms makes it that far, this would decrease the likelihood of lysis.
-------------------- Listen. That's all we ask. Posts: 172 | From toronto | Registered: Apr 2011
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posted
additionally: i was bit by the infected tick in my bed...which i shared with my boyfriend at the time. He did not notice bite marks and has no symptoms, but if I were still with him, it seems possible that he could become symptomatic and that i would attribute this to sexual transmission.
Also, its far more important that coinfections like babesia are proven to be transmitted in the blood...so oral sex around menstruation would be a very bad idea.
-------------------- Listen. That's all we ask. Posts: 172 | From toronto | Registered: Apr 2011
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lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
quote:Originally posted by James1979:
I would not be surprised if some people's answers are different in a year from now, when (hopefully) more studies will have been done.
Exactly why this topic should not be brought up over and over again. It's all speculation which can lead to unjustified fear and isolation.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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payne
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26248
posted
lymetoo, its my daughter that supervises the hugs - believe me its lonely here without them.
james 1979, hope that was a good year, don't appoligize for the search thingy .. many don't use it and your general chat and questions are a good mind opener for us all.. i wish more would reply and input.. there is a termendous amount of info in the search history of elders from years back... its mind boggling.. if I only had a brain to remember it all. keep posting and God has the Answer, (:
-------------------- TULAREMIA/rabbit fever ? Posts: 1931 | From mid-michigan | Registered: Jun 2010
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posted
the more i talk about it the less im afraid of it...
-------------------- Listen. That's all we ask. Posts: 172 | From toronto | Registered: Apr 2011
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James1979
Unregistered
posted
Payne, thanks for your encouragement. I wish you good health and happiness.
If I may just humbly mention - a lot of this "STD" stuff is reminiscent of how HIV started out. At first, the CDC was telling everybody that HIV was not an STD, even though they knew that it was. They said they didn't want to scare people, but in that way they allowed many more people to become infected. And unfortunately HIV had a 6-year dormant period, which means that many infected people were having sex without even knowing that they were spreading it.
Also, the blood banks were telling people that HIV wasn't transmissible through the blood, even though there was enough anecdotal evidence that it was. Their excuse was that there is no proof that it's transmissible through blood until a double-blind peer-reviewed study is done.
At least now there are tons of studies that have been done on HIV, so that people don't have to wonder and speculate anymore. The problem with Lyme is that there aren't enough studies being done (at least from what I've seen), so nobody can be 100% certain about their convictions on its transmissibility yet. And we know from the history of HIV (and of Lyme), that we can't trust what the "experts" are telling us.
If anybody thinks that there is conclusive evidence pertaining to the human-to-human transmissibility of Lyme, I'd be very happy to read it, and it would be nice if you would share those studies with us. I've read a lot of books about Lyme, and it seems to me that the data is inconclusive. That's why, I think, there is some value in anecdotal evidence - just as it was valuable in the beginnings of HIV, when the "experts" were claiming that it's not an STD but people with personal experience were claiming that it was.
My intent of this thread was not to scare people. I was just looking for anecdotal evidence, since we have a lack of scientific evidence. And it seems, from the majority of the responses here, that Lyme is not sexually transmitted except in rare cases.
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Geez - I'm not necessarily prudish but oral sex while menstruating seems like something for vampires...
I keep saying this - tick saliva... There are multiple studies, it's not a belief system or magical thinking. Bb is not syphilis or any other spirochete disease, just like babesia is not malaria.
Myth: You can catch an STD from a toilet seat, telephone or other object used by an infected person.
Fact: STDs are transmitted by vaginal, anal and oral sex. Some STDs may spread to a baby during pregnancy, childbirth or breast-feeding. Herpes can be transmitted by kissing, if herpes blisters are in the mouth. Hepatitis B, syphilis and HIV, the AIDS virus, can be spread by sharing needles or other objects contaminated by blood. STDs are not spread by handshakes, hugs, toilet seats, towels, dishes, telephone receivers, or insect bites.
----
If Lyme were spread from casual contact - most of the people in the Northeast (USA) would be ill right now. It's been around for almost 40 years.
-
I don't know about eating deer meat. I would probably avoid it but cows can be bitten by ticks, too, as far as I know.
I think ther reason why there are so many deer is that there aren't enough natural preditors. I have nothing against deer - they are just trying to survive like anything else. It's not their fault. I would take a look at humans as to the cause of Lyme...
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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-------------------- Listen. That's all we ask. Posts: 172 | From toronto | Registered: Apr 2011
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Bluemoon
Unregistered
posted
So to the experts who think it can be sexually transmitted, what if you are on heavy dosage abx? Does that affect the transmission in bodily fluids in any way?
Results Surprisingly, initial laboratory testing of semen samples provided by male Lyme patients (positive by western blot/PCR in blood) and the male sexual partner of a Lyme infected female patient were positive approximately 40% of the time. PCR recovery of Lyme DNA nucleotide sequences with microscopic confirmation of semen samples yielded positive results in 14/32 Lyme patients (13 male semen samples and 1 vaginal pap).
---
OK - so how do we prove anything from this that it's transmitted between partners...? Ticks are very small & the bites can go unnoticed. The tests can also be inaccurate. Even PCR tests. It doesn't mean the person has Lyme Disease even if they have a positive PCR test.
This is part of the ultimate problem - the tests are not accurate.
The polymerase chain reaction (PCR) test is a very sensitive assay that detects the DNA of B. burgdorferi. However, certain limitations prevent the PCR from being widely used. First, B. burgdorferi bacteria do not persist in easily obtainable fluids such as blood, synovial (joint) fluid or spinal fluid, but typically bind to joint and nerve tissues.
A PCR done on spinal fluid may be positive in early neurologic disease (e.g., Lyme meningitis) but is usually negative in a patient with long-term central nervous system damage. Second, a PCR can be easily contaminated, producing false positive results. For this reason, a positive PCR in a patient whose standard blood tests (ELISA and Western blot) are negative must be viewed with skepticism.
---
This study seems flawed in my opinion.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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payne
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26248
posted
thanks so much for all the mind bending... lyme has brought me new friends.
-------------------- TULAREMIA/rabbit fever ? Posts: 1931 | From mid-michigan | Registered: Jun 2010
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posted
all so related to HIV. they came out-- or as far as lyme goes- back, around the same time. if it was sexually tranmitted pretty much everyone would have it. just like if people werent educated about aids pretty much everyone would have it by now or at least more people than you could even count.
so antedotal evidence tells me its not.
-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
HIV is actually a retro-virus...
There are alot of theories about things. I guess you have to study it all & decide for yourself. I do think the tick saliva is a big part of the equation.
For all we know, Lyme could be targetted towards people with specific genetics?
(Thanks payne.)
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Well if LD can be transmitted in utero and via breastmilk why would it be surprising to find out it could be transmitted sexually???
I think we need to go back to basics---how is syphilis transmitted? How is AIDS transmitted? Granted AIDS is viral, but is there one person here who hasn't been diagnosed with a virus??
There are many pieces to this puzzle that are missing. James, thanks for this post. Sometimes we need to step back and think about these things.
And Sparkle, I too wonder about the genetics of it all.
-------------------- You gain strength, courage, and confidence by every experience in which you really stop to look fear in the face. You are able to say to yourself, 'I lived through this horror. I can take the next thing that comes along.'
---Eleanor Roosevelt Posts: 748 | From somewhere | Registered: May 2010
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
Bingo AlanaSuzanne. Nobody has proven to me anything when it comes to lyme & co.
Heck fire they can't even dx it, treat it effectively, or know much of anything about it if you ask me.
When the day happens that they find out the truth about LYME & CO and they know it backwards and frontwards I will still say never say never because this is the wildest thing I know of.
So unprotected sex is okay with my husband. He doesn't know it but I do he already has lyme & co.
He just hasn't fallen to his knees yet. Maybe he will get lucky and not fall? But I doubt it, because his lifestyle is a waiting timebomb.
Or I should say tickbomb.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by erikjh1972: the comparison with AIDS makes sense if people think its a std. im not comparing the 2, but if people think lyme is an std then it makes sense. more people would have it, plan and simple.
and i realize lyme has been around for hundreds of years but my point was it really hit the main stream in the 70's.
-------------------- 3 months Doxy 8 months of Tetra 7 months of Biaxin/Plaq. 4 months Doxy/Biaxin/Plaq. 5 months Biaxin/Plaq. Back on Doxy/Biax/Plaq On the road to recovery. Trying to make people Lyme Aware....... Posts: 289 | From R.I. | Registered: Jun 2009
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Tammy N.
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posted
Yes, I think it is an STD. Lyme (a spirochete) is a cousin to syphilis.
Posts: 2238 | From East Coast | Registered: Jul 2010
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Ditto AlanaSuzanne,
Also, just like the Aids virus can lie dormant even tho someone has been infected with HIV, so can Lyme. Some people can be infected for a lifetime and not exhibit symptoms.
BTW, Parasites, which are highly contagious are usually a big part of this soup, can also be sexually transmitted. I hate this disease!!!!!
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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lululymemom
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posted
When I first came on this site, I was shocked at all the comparisons made to HIV.. I think for any newbie that comes here and reads this, would be quite terrifying. I think that responsibility in providing true and accurate information should be paramount here.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
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sparkle7
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posted
Borrelia burgdorferi is very complicated.
FYI - A bacterial genome in flux: the twelve linear and nine circular extrachromosomal DNAs in an infectious isolate of the Lyme disease spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi.
But what of the relatives of B. burgdorferi? Perhaps one of the most infamous of these is Treponema pallidum, the bacterium that causes syphilis. in contrast to Lyme disease, syphilis is not a modern affliction; it was first recognized in the 15th century in Europe. It is similar to B. burgdorferi in that it is a spirochete with a relatively small genome and requires a host to survive; however, at the genomic level, the two organisms are not very closely related to each other at all.
Of the 1041 protein-coding regions in Treponema pallidum, 476 are shared with B. burgdorferi, but nearly half of these are common to other bacteria too, and most have a predicted biological function. Of the genes with unknown function, there are about 50 that are conserved only in the spirochetes and are not found in any other bacteria. Some of these are likely to represent genes that code for spirochete-specific traits, such as their helical shape and perhaps elements of their pathogenicity.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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fyi tho, borrelia vincentii is actually contagious through kisses and if you have full blown trench mouth or vincent's disease (severe periodontal disease) you shouldn't come into contact with others mouths, gentals, bung holes, etc.
-------------------- Listen. That's all we ask. Posts: 172 | From toronto | Registered: Apr 2011
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sparkle7
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posted
I think part of the problem is the co-infections - whether they are parasites, viruses, fungi or yeast or bacteria. It's the combination of things that is bad.
It's very odd to me that 2 things that are symbiotic are in the same tick - the microfilarial worms & these infections. Added people may be exposed to herpes virus & other pathogens, toxic chemicals, & emfs. There also may be genetic components.
Spirochetes have been weaponized for a long time. The Japanese were experimenting with them since before WW2. All of this stuff is bad news.
I can't say 100% that it is not transmitted via body fluids but if it were easily spread - everyone would be ill by now. Maybe we all have it in our bodies & it's just a matter of time before it causes damage?
I would think it would be in meat & milk, as well. I'm sure there are ticks in fields with cows & steers. I guess we just have to decide for ourselves what to do about it & how careful we should be.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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payne
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26248
posted
we came into this world through sex. perhaps we will leave this world through sex. the big picture, God gives, God takes.
Blessings to you all, hoping your days are many and bright, I HATE THIS DISEASE TOO. humbly wayne.
-------------------- TULAREMIA/rabbit fever ? Posts: 1931 | From mid-michigan | Registered: Jun 2010
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Yes
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